Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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Well, I agree that this event I am speaking of is not pre-trib. It occurs within the 70th week of Daniel during the Mt 24:4-14 period. This is a time of ‘sorrows’ and testing that precedes the great tribulation. It’s also a prewrath event. I understand the importance of not having respect of persons. Noah was hidden in an ark of safety, Daniel was delivered and Job’s faith was tested.
The following passage explains this current transitional period well:
“First, with the birth of the Church (Acts 2), God did not stop his working with Israel. Bible scholars have always looked at the book of Acts to be a book of transition from Israel to the Church--from the age of law to the age of grace. The first converts were Jews (Acts 2). Early believers continued to go to the temple for worship (Acts 3:1).”
“The 70th week will be exactly the same. It will be a transitional period, in reverse this time, from the Church to Israel. As Israel entered the Church age, the Church will enter the 70th week of Daniel.”
Israel conducted strikes in/around Damascus multiple times last year, a 10 day conflict with Hamas occurred in summer 2021, and Israel is now preparing for war with Iran.). We are coming closer to the time of Jacob’s trouble in my view as war with Israel and Iran is near. The woman (Israel) of Rev. 12 is described as going into ‘travail.’ This could be referring to a coming conflict or the painful sorrow that will come to the remnant during great tribulation.
The concept of three separate periods of tribulation is seen within Revelation. The lukewarm gentile church receives persecution from Mystery Babylon. The harlot is seen riding the beast. The beast will use this spiritual entity to persecute unfaithful and lukewarm (Rev 2:10, Rev. 17:6). Next, the harlot of Mystery Babylon is destroyed by the beast in Rev. 17:15-17. These souls who are part of Mystery Babylon will either take the mark or become the martyrs of the beast. Finally, there is the great tribulation Jesus referred to in Matt. 24:15 for the remnant of Israel.
I’ll share what I believe to be the correct interpretation of this passage. Perhaps something to pray about. It’s a similar situation with Daniel’s 70th week. One interpretation causes many pre-tribulation scholars to claim we are not in that period. The interpretation I see as correct allows the gentile remnant portion of the Church to be present with the final seven years.
“The ‘child’ (Revelation 12:4, 5b) is delivered after the ‘travail’ of the ‘woman’ (Revelation 1:2). The ‘child’ symbolically represents living believers who, as kings and priests, will rule and reign with Christ during the Millennium.”
“The ‘woman’ represents both Israel, from which came the Messiah (the Messiah is also represented by the ‘Man-child’) and the constellation Virgo/Betulah.”
Yes, I agree the Man-child’ represents Jesus.
“The ‘child’ represents present day faithful believers on earth. The Man-child—Jesus—is the One who will “rule all nations with a rod of iron”. He was not ‘caught up’—forcibly brought to God after His resurrection, but instead gently ascended into a cloud from the Mount of Olives almost 2000 years ago. Faithful believers on the other hand, will be forcefully taken from the earth, away from the clutches of the Dragon and his angels.”
Other unfaithful believers become the martyrs of Mystery Babylon (Rev. 2:10, Rev. 17:6). Both faithful and unfaithful believers make up the 24 elders, but the unfaithful suffer loss. They failed to meet the conditions of 2 Tim. 11-12, and had no oil. They failed to obtain the inheritance of ruling during the millennial reign, and don’t come to life ‘until the thousand years were over.’ (Rev. 20:5).
“The ‘Man-child’ rules; the ‘child’ is ‘caught up’, but they are meant to be seen as One ‘son’—a ‘first born’-who will rule over the earth (Rom. 8:14-17).”
“The rapture of the ‘child’ is forceful. The Greek word ‘harpazo’, translated as ‘caught up’ in Revelation 12:5, implies a forceful rescue or removal. There is no mention of clouds or trumpets in this rapture passage. Revelation 12 is also devoid of any kind of ‘Jewish wedding’ imagery often associated with the rapture.”
“The story of Elijah’s translation into heaven in a fiery chariot, is the Old Testament type of the rapture of the Child. Elijah’s servant, Elisha, who watched Elijah as he departed, received the double portion of Elijah’s spirit once Elijah was taken into heaven. When the ‘Child’ leaves, another group of ‘witnesses’ will take its place—that being the 144K of Israel—a symbolic 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Elisha received assurance that the ‘double portion’, the portion which was reserved for the ‘first born’, would be his if he saw Elijah taken into heaven.”
We have been and are seeing the signs of the time of sorrows period in Matt 24:4-8 (Increase in large earthquakes, Israel’s 10 day conflict with Hamas this past year, Russia and NATO conducting war drills, Israel striking in/around Damascus, etc.). Matt. 24:4-14 are the signs preceding the great tribulation and Matt. 24:9-14 analogous with persecution that will come to the lukewarm from Mystery Babylon (Rev. 2:10, Rev. 17:6).
It’s the harpazo of the glorified ‘child’ that has ‘obtained the inheritance’ (Rom. 8:14, Rom. 8:30) in Rev 12:5 that is soon to occur. This is the first harpazo event within Daniel’s 70th week.
The ‘secret’ thief in the night harpazo event occurs before the prophesied Day of the Lord and the outpouring of the wrath of God (Matt. 24:44). It’s the term “the tribulation” that causes the confusion in my view.
I would say it is mostly the interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 that causes the disagreement It is a complex and disputed passage. One that many will always agree to disagree over in the same way believers disagree over the rapture(s).
A pre-trib scholar will understandably state we haven’t entered into the week because he sees this confirming of the covenant by the antichrist as beginning the week.
Daniel’s 70th week is not a 7 year period of wrath that’s been termed “the tribulation.” The gentile portion of the Church can be present within Daniel’s 70th week and not be experiencing God’s wrath.
The Time of Jacob’s trouble is 3.5 years. We have seen the signs in Matthew 24:4-8 already present.
It’s the strict dispensationalism that separates the gentile remnant from Israel I see as problematic.
This excerpt explains why I see the gentile remnant portion as part of the transitional period of Daniel’s 70th week:
“First, with the birth of the Church (Acts 2), God did not stop his working with Israel. Bible scholars have always looked at the book of Acts to be a book of transition from Israel to the Church--from the age of law to the age of grace. The first converts were Jews (Acts 2). Early believers continued to go to the temple for worship (Acts 3:1).”
“The 70th week will be exactly the same. It will be a transitional period, in reverse this time, from the Church to Israel. As Israel entered the Church age, the Church will enter the 70th week of Daniel.”
Good Morning Brother,
The LORD does not know of any 'Bible Scholar(s)' other then the Holy Spirit.
No one has access to understanding the things of God unless the Father reveals it to them.
This is the Truth from Genesis to Revelation.
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
All Believers are invited by the Spirit to study the Word = 2 Timothy chapter 2
EVERYONE must obey the Eternal Commandment set forth by God = Deuteronomy 4:1-2, Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
ANYONE who violates this Eternal Commandment practices lawlessness just as satan did in the Garden, so also today.
EVERYONE is to live off of the Word of God = Matthew 4:4
The Spirit of Truth will only confirm what God desires for us to know = nothing more and nothing less.
The Spirit of Truth will only have One Truth for ALL Believers = God is not the author of confusion.
The Spirit of Truth will reveal the Harmony of Scripture and the Hierarchy of Scripture.
Enoch was translated because he was the 7th from Adam by the Ordained Will of God, Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him. This is a Picture of CHRIST = not the Church. This is exactly what is repeated in Revelation ch12.
Elijah was 'caught up' at the End of Great Tribulation under the Harlot Jezebel who would of murdered all the righteous had God not intervened. Elijah is one individual and does not not foreshadow any special group of believers that are distinct from the Body of Christ. Elijah was taken up because he will face Jezebel again, the Harlot of Revelation, and he will be put to death by the Beast.
These three Prophets of OT declare when the rapture of the Church will occur = Noah, Daniel and Job.
Listen to what the LORD says: Or if I send a pestilence into that land and pour out My fury on it in blood, and cut off from it man and beast, even though Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live,” says the Lord God, “they would deliver neither son nor daughter; they would deliver only themselves by their righteousness.”
The LORD Jesus Christ never spoke of a 7 Year Period to come in the Gospels.
The Apostles never spoke of a 7 Year Period in Acts and their Letters.
Revelation does not speak of a 7 Year Period but it does speak of the two witnesses and the 1260 days.
Harmony & Hierarchy of Scripture dictates what we are to believe, walk in and preach/prophesy to one another.
CHRIST is the fulfillment of Prophecy and of the Feasts and of the Harvest = ALL is contained in Him = He is All and in All.
Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. For in this the saying is true: ‘One sows and another reaps.’ I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.”
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
There is no rapture/resurrection that occurs before the Coming of the Lord = this is Hierarchy of Scripture = ALL Scripture submits to.
This is the Hierarchy of Scripture: Matt ch24, 1 Thess & 2 Thess, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 9:28 , 1 John ch2 -ch3, Revelation
OT Prophets Noah, Daniel and Job and James ch5
The Holy Spirit, Spirit of Truth, has given NO OTHER nor any private/secret/scholarly interpretation then that which has been given to the common Believer in Christ to embrace and set our hearts on.
The Divine Scholar will reveal all Truth to the Anointed Seekers = 1 John 2:24-29
The 144k in Revelation is symbolic of.............who and what??? = Pray and find out = it is written................Amen
The Double Portion of the Spirit was poured out on Pentecost and is available from the LORD for His People.
CHRIST is the Tabernacle of God = ACTS ch7 and ch 15
Pre-trib is a false doctrine. It is error as it contradicts the words of Christ and the Apostles.
FACT Check: The Bride of Christ/Disciples came to their Groom/JESUS and asked Him when HE was coming back for them.
John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of Him.’ The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom stands and listens for him, and is overjoyed to hear the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. He must increase; I must decrease.
FACT Check: ALL Scriptures that speak of the rapture make the rapture subject to His Coming and/or the Resurrection.
A.) Matthew ch24
B.) 1 Thessalonians
C.) 2 Thessalonians
D.) 1 Timothy 4:1 confirms the "falling away" of 2 Thess ch2 less satan tempt you by adding to God's words
E.) Hebrews 9:28
F.) 1 John ch2
G.) 1 John ch3
H.) 1 Corinthians ch15
I.) Revelation (All of IT) but especially chapter 6 thru ch20
J.) OT Prophets Noah, Daniel and Job
K.) James ch5
L.) Prohets Enoch & Elijah
Overwhelming the Bible Student/Scholar with CLEAR instruction as to His Second Coming, the Resurrection and finally the rapture.
Any attempt to undermine, twist or override His Order of Scripture comes from the wicked one.
But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one. Matt 5:37
But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ Matthew 18:16
The Faithful Witnesses of God have spoken (Jesus, Paul, John, James, Noah, Daniel, Job, Hebrews) and agree that Christ will come for His Elect after the Tribulation brought upon the world by satan, sin and rebellion/falling away.
We are now in the Prophetic unfolding where God is giving them over to be damned who rejected the Truth and desired wickedness over any hope of them to be saved. = 2 Thess ch2
I don't see any gradual "transitional period". On the contrary nothing could be as sharp and distinct as an instantaneous rapture. Furthermore I think the Bible makes perfectly clear that when the "birth pangs" begin you know you're in the tribulation per 1 Thes 5:3, where "sudden destruction" is directly linked to "birth pangs".
How anyone can deny that 1 Thes 5:1-11 are rapture passages simply beggars credulity. The stark contrast between "US" "WE" "YE" (who do not experience the birth pangs or wrath), and "THEY" "THEM" (who are consigned to suffer both) cannot possibly be more intentional and clear.
In other words there is definitely no blending or transitioned here. There is only division, contrast and dichotomy.
None of it is.
You are not paying attention
I neither believe it , nor have i ever implied it.
And you get a blue ribbon from another misinformed member.
Lol
Lol
Jesus taught 2 separate comings in mat 24
I have laid that out. Complete with the IMPOSSIBILITY of the postribs tireless efforts to twist the rapture verses.
Take the one taken/left for example.
Watch postribbers twist it into oblivion.
Then just read what it Really SAYS.
But, unfortunately you wont.
Actually you CAN'T.
WHY?????
It is because you guys have a MASSIVE investment in that poorly thought out postrib rapture doctrine. ( WITH NO VERSES.....NONE!!!!)
Now that is comical.
You ABSOLUTELY MUST change the "one taken/ left" component.
You have nowhere to go with it.
You MUST change it.
You do this same thing over and over.
Point out one "ERROR" after another that become your BASIS FOR BELIEF.
You think you are able to take an imaginary high ground because you opponent has the wrong color tie or his shoe is untied.
Then we look at your " proper way" and see your garments are a mess.
You are proving zero
Like i said before
You check nothing out.
From websters;
U'NICORN, noun [Latin unicornis; unus, one, and cornu, horn.]
1. an animal with one horn; the monoceros. this name is often applied to the rhinoceros.
You are basically showing us, as with your postrib doctrine you invested several posts into smearing a phantom.
U'NICORN, noun [Latin unicornis; unus, one, and cornu, horn.]
1. an animal with one horn; the monoceros. this name is often applied to the rhinoceros.
AHEM;
U'NICORN, noun [Latin unicornis; unus, one, and cornu, horn.]
1. an animal with one horn; the monoceros. this name is often applied to the rhinoceros.
Now what were you saying about not trusting something that INVENTS THINGS?????
AS YOU DO??????
DIRECTLY related - pray for understanding.
God knows the End from the Beginning and declares those things that are not before they come to pass.
Hear this word that the Lord has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:
2“You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”
3Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?
4Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has no prey?
Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he has caught nothing?
5Will a bird fall into a snare on the earth, where there is no trap for it?
Will a snare spring up from the earth, if it has caught nothing at all?
6If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity in a city, will not the Lord have done it?
7Surely the Lord God does nothing,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.
8A lion has roared!
Who will not fear?
The Lord God has spoken!
Who can but prophesy?
I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’ 19Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He. 20Most assuredly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.”
These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
29“And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe.
Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’