You avoid the Truth, oh well !1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
... more eisegesis on your part. Pluck a verse out of its context in order to prop up a doctrine never intended by the Author of Scripture.
Why didn't you include the verses just before Romans 4:25?
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Romans 5:1 makes very clear that we are justified by faith
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
And please note ... Romans 5:1 is the very next verse after Romans 4:25:
Romans 4:
20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Who Justifieth the Ungodly
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Again according to Gal 3:13 how were they redeemed from the curse of the Law ?
2 Peter 3:
15 ... even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.
Romans 3 is written to those who believe they are justified through keeping the law.
Romans 3:
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 4 clarifies that faith is not "works".
Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
nope ... just pointing out your eisegesis ...
Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.
The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.
Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
more eisegesis on your part because the context does not support your dogma
In order to prop up your dogma, you rip Galatians 3:13 from its context. By ripping Galatians 3:13 from the context in which it sits, you misconstrue the point:
Galatians 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The whole point of this section is that it was never God's intent for mankind to be redeemed through keeping the law. Redemption has always been afforded to mankind through faith.
The purpose of the law is to bring mankind to the Lord Jesus Christ in order that we might be justified by faith:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
Again according to Gal 3:13 how were they redeemed from the curse of the Law ? Its within the context.more eisegesis on your part because the context does not support your dogma
In order to prop up your dogma, you rip Galatians 3:13 from its context. By ripping Galatians 3:13 from the context in which it sits, you misconstrue the point:
Galatians 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The whole point of this section is that it was never God's intent for mankind to be redeemed through keeping the law. Redemption has always been afforded to mankind through faith.
The purpose of the law is to bring mankind to the Lord Jesus Christ in order that we might be justified by faith:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
- The gospel is for all natural men
- The gospel is the Gods message to the lost
- The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4
- The gospel is the power of God unto Salvation Ephesians 1:15-23
- The ministry of the Holy Spirit is in John 16
- After reconciliation the lost man is no longer a natural man , but is has been filled with the Spirit of Adoption , crying Abba Father. As many as received Him to them , gave he the power to become the Sons of God.
In order to cleave to Calvins thesis and believe God justifies the ungodly in this context . You have to do something with God’s statement I will not justify the wicked. “ Further , you have to do something with repent . Because you are special and on the list you do not have to be justified by faith. You have been selected so theoretically you could be raping your sister and God could rapture your ass to heaven if you were a pre-tribulationist Calvinist
Rom 4:8 ; 2 Cor 5:19 Non Imputation !
Rom 4:8
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
All those whom God does not Charge with sin or impute with sin , are Justified from sin, freed from sin because their sins were charged to Christ, and Paul writes in Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.114
So Non Imputation of sin, non Charge of it equals Justification, or God Justifieth. The word Justifieth above is the greek word dikaioō:
to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
So, God's non imputation or not charging of one is also His Declaring them Righteous or Just !
David writes Ps 32:2
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
The Hebrew word for imputeth is chashab :
to think, plan, esteem, calculate, invent, make a judgment, imagine, count
a) (Qal)
1) to think, account
2) to plan, devise, mean
3) to charge, impute, reckon
4) to esteem, value, regard
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord chargeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. That means he is Righteous, to have no guile in his spirit speaks of the new birth !
Now Paul under New Covenant Teaching quotes David here Rom 4:7-8, and so this describes a Justified man, because by non imputation also equates to forgiveness of sins, yes all their lawless deeds, which is Justification.
With forgiveness comes vindication:
to clear, as from an accusation, imputation, suspicion, or the like
to afford justification for; justify
Now none of this is contingent upon anything the forgiven ones has done or believed.
You see forgiveness of sins is no different from Justification, its just another aspect or feature of it; One is not forgiven by the Blood without being at the same time Justified by it or vice versa, and non imputation of sins equals forgiveness of it, and that's why God does not charge those with it for whom Christ died because He was charged their iniquities and as the Prophet say: Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Rom 4:8
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
2 Cor 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
All those whom God does not Charge with sin or impute with sin , are Justified from sin, freed from sin because their sins were charged to Christ, and Paul writes in Rom 8:33
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.114
So Non Imputation of sin, non Charge of it equals Justification, or God Justifieth. The word Justifieth above is the greek word dikaioō:
to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
So, God's non imputation or not charging of one is also His Declaring them Righteous or Just !
David writes Ps 32:2
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
The Hebrew word for imputeth is chashab :
to think, plan, esteem, calculate, invent, make a judgment, imagine, count
a) (Qal)
1) to think, account
2) to plan, devise, mean
3) to charge, impute, reckon
4) to esteem, value, regard
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord chargeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile. That means he is Righteous, to have no guile in his spirit speaks of the new birth !
Now Paul under New Covenant Teaching quotes David here Rom 4:7-8, and so this describes a Justified man, because by non imputation also equates to forgiveness of sins, yes all their lawless deeds, which is Justification.
With forgiveness comes vindication:
to clear, as from an accusation, imputation, suspicion, or the like
to afford justification for; justify
Now none of this is contingent upon anything the forgiven ones has done or believed.
You see forgiveness of sins is no different from Justification, its just another aspect or feature of it; One is not forgiven by the Blood without being at the same time Justified by it or vice versa, and non imputation of sins equals forgiveness of it, and that's why God does not charge those with it for whom Christ died because He was charged their iniquities and as the Prophet say: Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Context = The context of an idea or event is the general situation that relates to it, and which helps it to be understood (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/context)
If a statement or remark is quoted out of context, the circumstances in which it was said are not correctly reported, so that it seems to mean something different from the meaning that was intended (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/out-of-context)
In order to prop up your dogma, you rip Galatians 3:13 from its context. By ripping Galatians 3:13 from the context in which it sits, you misconstrue the point:
Galatians 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The whole point of this section is that it was never God's intent for mankind to be redeemed through keeping the law. Redemption has always been afforded to mankind through faith.
The purpose of the law is to bring mankind to the Lord Jesus Christ in order that we might be justified by faith:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
more eisegesis on your part ... ripping verses out of the context within which they sit in order to prop up your dogma.Romans 4:7-8 are not stand alone verses. Read the verses within the context:
Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
It is clear from verse 3 that Abraham believed God and Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. And it is clear from verse 5 that those who "work not, but believe on Him Who justifies ... faith is counted for righteousness".
Romans 4 clarifies that faith is not "works". And when you, brightfame52, continue to insist that faith is somehow "works" on the part of mankind, you directly contradict what is written in Scripture. READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
Read further in Psalm 32 and see what David did not do (which caused him anguish) and what David did (which resulted in David's praise to God):brightfame52 said:
Psalm 32:
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
According to verses 3-4 ... when David "kept silence" (did not acknowledge his sin before God), his sin bothered him to the core of his being. However, read verse 5:
5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
When David acknowledged his sin and confessed to God, then his sin was forgiven ... then David considered God his hiding place where David was preserved from trouble.
Even in our day and time, the born again believer is to confess his/her sins:
1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
Yeah I think the context is justifying us by faith. I can hold out a gift all day but it doesn’t become yours until you receive it . Interesting 52 uses “ God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself “ not the elect , not the chosen. Oh well , I did my Bible study for the day , Renewed enjoy 52’s buffet style expositions.
All of Gods word should be pondered, line upon line within any context. Isa 28:10,13
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Now according to Gal 3:13 how were they redeemed from the curse of the law ? Its Gods word !
Non imputation and forgiveness isnt conditioned on what a person does, but on what Christ has done.
Romans 4:7-8 are not stand alone verses. Read the verses within the context:
Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
It is clear from verse 3 that Abraham believed God and Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. And it is clear from verse 5 that those who "work not, but believe on Him Who justifies ... faith is counted for righteousness".
Romans 4 clarifies that faith is not "works". And when you, brightfame52, continue to insist that faith is somehow "works" on the part of mankind, you directly contradict what is written in Scripture. READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
Read further in Psalm 32 and see what David did not do (which caused him anguish) and what David did (which resulted in David's praise to God):
Psalm 32:
1 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
3 When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long.
4 For day and night thy hand was heavy upon me: my moisture is turned into the drought of summer. Selah.
According to verses 3-4 ... when David "kept silence" (did not acknowledge his sin before God), his sin bothered him to the core of his being. However, read verse 5:
5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
6 For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him.
7 Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
When David acknowledged his sin and confessed to God, then his sin was forgiven ... then David considered God his hiding place where David was preserved from trouble.
Even in our day and time, the born again believer is to confess his/her sins:
1 John 1:
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
Let's just say your part is to obey. You just want God to do everything for you . Sorry , that's a no go with Him . He is the author of eternal salvation to all those that obey Him. He that believeth not shall be damned.
Not because they were not selected , elected , enabled , didn't have to repent , or were justified without having to have faith. But because they believed not on Him. The hand was extended it was not shortened that it could not save .
No faith , No forgiveness. Once they reach an age of accountability that’s it. So Jesus lived a life of sinlessness obeying the law as our substitute . Died paying penalty satisfying His righteousness that attribute of Himself that holds the sinner responsible. Calvin says,
and his student says "Non imputation and forgiveness isnt conditioned on what a person does, but on what Christ has done.” Wrong , Wrong , Wrong. If you yourself do not forgive will the Father forgive your trespasses ? Like the KJV says, I trow not. So as long as we are on the subject of obedience . The Lord Jesus said, That one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit would be to convince the world of sin, because they believe not on me. Faith equates to obedience. I could say all day long and extend a gift to you and say this is yours 52 but until you came to Christ whatever He did on your behalf was ineffectual. There is no evidence in Scripture of limited atonement, Salvation by election , justification without faith . I mean you need to slow down amigo. I want to help but you are trained to ask questions of the non-calvinist that just don’ t help you. I am elected why ? Because of Calvary the work is complete . Until I believed and was born-again I was lost . Praise the Lord. God represented ME YOU RENEWED DAY BY DAY AND ALL THE OFFSPRING OF ADAM. AS THE CREATION ( MAN) He doesn’t lose one iota of Glory by requiring that you” repent and believe the gospel “ .
and his student says "Non imputation and forgiveness isnt conditioned on what a person does, but on what Christ has done.” Wrong , Wrong , Wrong. If you yourself do not forgive will the Father forgive your trespasses ? Like the KJV says, I trow not. So as long as we are on the subject of obedience . The Lord Jesus said, That one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit would be to convince the world of sin, because they believe not on me. Faith equates to obedience. I could say all day long and extend a gift to you and say this is yours 52 but until you came to Christ whatever He did on your behalf was ineffectual. There is no evidence in Scripture of limited atonement, Salvation by election , justification without faith . I mean you need to slow down amigo. I want to help but you are trained to ask questions of the non-calvinist that just don’ t help you. I am elected why ? Because of Calvary the work is complete . Until I believed and was born-again I was lost . Praise the Lord. God represented ME YOU RENEWED DAY BY DAY AND ALL THE OFFSPRING OF ADAM. AS THE CREATION ( MAN) He doesn’t lose one iota of Glory by requiring that you” repent and believe the gospel “ .
Galatians 3:
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The whole point of this section is that it was never God's intent for mankind to be redeemed through keeping the law. Redemption has always been afforded to mankind through faith.
The purpose of the law is to bring mankind to the Lord Jesus Christ in order that we might be justified by faith:
Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!