Revelation's Mystery Author? Rev 1:1-3 suggests a third-party author

ResidentAlien · Jan 5, 2022

It does almost sound like a third party writing. I've always wondered about the Pentateuch too. For example, if Moses wrote these books one would expect a lot more of "we did this" or "I did that." Moses is being written about rather than the one writing. In Acts though you do find Luke speaking in the first person.

There are many things about God's word that are truly mysterious.

Lucy-Pevensie · Jan 5, 2022

Veridican said:

It sounds like you have a personal inclination to dwell on the real or percieved shortcomings of the men God chose
to pen the books of scripture. I suggest you pray about it and seek to get over it. It's a form of unforgiveness.

Rhomphaeam · Jan 5, 2022

Veridican said:

The Lord's day in Revelation 1:10 does not signify a sabbatical day of rest. It signifies the day of the Revelation of the Lord Jesus in power in His own divinity - in His person and the One who has the keys of death and hell and the churches in His hand..

It is also a simple matter to identify who it was to whom the Lord spoke in Revelation because the Lord disclosed that day expressly to Peter about John. So let the Spirit lead you as you say that this is the only way to know Christ - through His word.

John the Apostle was the only Apostle who did not endure martyrdom. He died in his bed not long after the book of Revelation was given. He was kept alive expressly for this purpose after all the other apostles had been martyred.

Veridican · Jan 5, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

I'm stating facts, not opinions. THEY ALL ABANDONED JESUS IN THE GARDEN. It's not my place to forgive them. I don't even know them--and neither do you, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. John the Apostle either did not write the Gospel of John or did not write Revelation. The two authors are different authors, but even that's irrelevant because both books are actually anonymous. And I've already stated why that's actually quite important. So, you can take your little snipey judgements and...well, whatever.

Rhomphaeam said:

Okay.

I honestly don't know what you're trying to say there.

Well, that's what the Catholic Church says about him. But in all honesty, no one knows. I mean, unless what you just said is something you received from the Holy Spirit. Irenaeus says that Polycarp was a student of John, but that would be nearly impossible given their age differences. And it's actually unlikely that any of the Apostles were still alive when Polycarp was born. They might have been, but they say the average lifespan back then was around 49. But again, that doesn't really matter, because my point is that Revelation is anonymous. There is a name, yes, John, but no one knows who that John was and certainly, in Revelation, that John never claims to be an Apostle--or that he ever even knew Jesus in the flesh. In that context, the name John might as well be Roy or Bob. It just doesn't matter.

Veridican · Jan 5, 2022

ResidentAlien said:

You know, what's interesting as well, and I came across this back in the day when I used to debate atheists. Some would say Jesus never existed, but the first chapter of John proves that he did. If you read it, and you kind of read between the lines, you see that the author--whoever it was--assumes his readers know there was a controversy as to who the Messiah was, John the Baptist vs. Jesus of Nazareth. He's not saying Jesus exists, he's assuming his readers already know that, and John the Baptist is an historical figure outside of the Gospels.

The argument goes like this:

John was written for someone to read. It's a real book, really written in the first century, and it has an audience like any literature does.
John assumes in the first chapter that his readers know who Jesus is.
That's why he is arguing that Jesus is the real Messiah and not John the Baptist.
If Jesus never existed, the writer of John would have had to explain to his audience who Jesus was to begin with. He doesn't do that. He assumes they already know.

NotmebutHim · Jan 5, 2022

Rhomphaeam · Jan 5, 2022

Veridican said:

There is a part of Scripture where the risen Jesus is speaking to Peter on a beech when He speaks about the Apostle John and tells Peter that which identifies John as the author of Revelation in a meaning that has to do with the words that appear in Revelation 1:10 as I explained them previously. So I am making a material claim. Its a point of reference not a spiritual explanation. Its a rational statement and a material claim. Either I am mistaken or else you can find it in the appropriate place as the Spirit leads.

Veridican · Jan 6, 2022

Rhomphaeam said:

There is a part of Scripture where the risen Jesus is speaking to Peter on a beech when He speaks about the Apostle John and tells Peter that which identifies John as the author of Revelation in a meaning that has to do with the words that appear in Revelation 1:10 as I explained them previously. So I am making a material claim. Its a point of reference not a spiritual explanation. Its a rational statement and a material claim. Either I am mistaken or else you can find it in the appropriate place as the Spirit leads.

Great. 0 coherence. I really should have guessed it. I won't press you with questions anymore.

ewq1938 · Jan 6, 2022

The book of Revelation very clearly says it was someone named John who saw and wrote the things he saw and then shared it with the 7 churches. There is zero support that someone else wrote Revelation or helped John write it.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rondonmon · Jan 6, 2022

Veridican said:

I recently explained every chapter of the book of Revelation on here somewhere. Not faulting you here brother, but in order to do an Exegesis like I did on Dan. 11 & 12 you need to also look at all the Greek root words and verse 1 is very good example why this must be done, the translation that says these things must come to pass SHORTLY is not understood correctly in todays language, see of you can figure out why and get back to me. HINT: this one verse is why we have Preterism. HINT: they interpreted two Greek words with SHORTLY, one actually mans to GO FAST or to come IN HASTE. No more hints.

Well one more, (the Greek word TACHOS = Tachometer in English)

Now, back to the journey you are own. God gave this to Jesus who gave it unto His servant John, who did indeed write the Gospel of John in spite of what these fruit-loop Professors say. The reason there are over 1200 ANDS in the book of Revelation is because of the way this book was given unto John, not in a tidy manuscript, but in "Visions and Utterings", so John had to write all of this down this very, very fast manner, on the go so to speak, Jesus would give him one vision and at times he or his Angels would tell John things, and John would have to wrote it down vey fast, thus the AND, AND, AND, AND, AND, AND, ANDS.......... It was a series of visions and also Jesus or his Angels speaking unto John the Beloved.

In Revelation chapter 17 we see the Vision was only 4 verses long, Rev. 17:3-6, in verse 1 the Angel talks with John and says come AND I will show you the judgment of the Harlot that sits on many waters............then in verse 3 John says he carried me into the Wilderness AND I saw a woman sitting on a Scarlet Colored Beast (who is Apollyon by the way) full of blasphemy with 7 heads AND 10 horns....the next verse starts out AND........the 5th verse starts out AND as does verse 6 and 7 but in verse 7 the Angel is once again speaking unto John telling him that he (the Angel) is about to show him the MYSTERY (Secret by God's Silence heretofore Musterion means to SHUT the mouth) of the Harlot woman and the Beast she rides. Thus from verse 7 to verse 18 we get an Angel giving John DICTATION, go read it, LOL, its true. So, John is writing that which Jesus SHOWED him in verses 3-6, and then the Angel EXPLAINED the Mystery unto him and John is merely writing all this down as fast as he can. Thus when we get to verse 18 and the Angel says REMEMBER what thou SAWEST via these words......18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Only after I had written a blog calling Rome the representation of what John wrote about, did the Holy Spirit speak to my pee wee brain and say "Ron, you are wrong, what did John actually SEE", and that is when I understand the Vision was only four verses long, and it was John seeing this in essence:

MYSTERY ( a Header a la a Question Mark ? ) then three Descriptors. It was never Mystery Babylon.

1.) Babylon the Great (Babylon was associated with False Religion)

2.) Mother of Harlots ( False Religion was the birth mother of all Harlotry)

3.) Abominations of all the earth (Worshiping any god but God is an Abomination unto God who is a Jealous God)

The Angel said COME and I will show you the Mystery of the Harlot (ALL False Religion) and the Beast (ALL False Governance) she rides. So, it was never a mystery, the Angel explained this straight away, so why do we still call it Mystery Babylon today?

Out of 404 verses in the book of Revelation 289 of them are Old Testament verbiage. In other words the Old Testament is the CODE to understanding the boo of Revelation. In Gen. 37:9 we can see who the Woman with the Sun, Moon and 12 Stars under her foot is, it is Israel, because Joseph dreamed a dream that the Sun, Moon and 11 Stars would pay obeisance unto him. Here in Rev. 17 all you have to do is turn to Daniel chapter 5 and you will see what the Angel was relaying unto John, the Mene, Mene Tekel chapter, whre Nebuchadnezzar's son drank from the holy cups and ate from God's holy platters, with all of his 1000's of friends and Harlot ladies, and that very day the Handwriting on the wall wrote, Mene, mene, tekel, this day thy Kingdom is taken from you, OR in other words Babylon Falls today !! So the Angel relayed the description of Babylon falling in olden times, but showed how it would happen in a future time also, this whole evil world is Babylon the Great unto God. He says so in Rev 16:19 when Jesus defeats all the Kings/Beast at Armageddon, God states that He just gave the Winepress of His Wrath unto Babylon the Great. And Vial #6 tells us they were the Kings of the WHOLE EARTH !!

Babel means Confusion, what does Satan do to mankind? He so profoundly confuses this world until they actually gather to battle against their own loving Creator, what an apt description we are "Babylon the Great".

I think God is mocking mankind with descriptor !!

Lucy-Pevensie · Jan 6, 2022

ewq1938 said:

Quite right. John is also identified as the writer of The Gospel.

John 21:
20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, ‘Lord, who is going to betray you?’) {referring to John 13:25

21 When Peter saw him, he asked, ‘Lord, what about him?’
22 Jesus answered, ‘If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.’

23 Because of this, the rumour spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, ‘If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?’

24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

Veridican · Jan 6, 2022

ewq1938 said:

Of course, "someone" named John wrote it. Even if 1:1-3 is an introduction by someone else, that's all it is. v. 4 starts up with John's Apocalypse. But it might as well be considered anonymous, because no one knows who that John is. No one--except God, I suppose.

Veridican · Jan 6, 2022

Rondonmon said:

Exegesis was the wrong word. I'm writing a revelation of Revelation. God has shown me things within the symbology of the text, and I am setting those to paper and publication. Maybe no one will read it, but that's not the issue, that's up to God. What is at issue is His charge to me that I write it.

That said, I would love to read your writings about the book of Revelation that you mention in your first sentence. Maybe you could supply the link?

It's not the same author, Rondonmon. Actually, it doesn't matter if it is, because the book of John, the Gospel of John, is an anonymous document. Catholic Church history admits they ascribed those names to those documents. They originally never had names associated with them.

And you know that, how? Did the Holy Spirit tell you that's how it went?

You're right. I mean, about the Mystery thing. I went and looked, it's not at all "mystery Babylon." It's Mystery, and it is Babylon. That's a good catch.

Interesting theories. Thanks.

Veridican · Jan 6, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Okay, but just a point here: v. 24 is someone else--not John. The writer of v.24 is saying that the Apostle John wrote down his testimony and then someone came along and wrote what we know of as the Gospel of John. In fact, it sounds like, given v. 23-24, that John was already dead when the writer of the Gospel of John wrote it.

What am I missing here?

Actually, and I want to add this. We don't know the disciple being referred to here is John. It was one of the twelve at the last supper. We might as well call him John, and I have no reason to not call him John, but we really don't know who it was.

pottersclay · Jan 6, 2022

Veridican said:

Might want to do a history search on the ruler of the day when john wrote down the things that he saw.

Rondonmon · Jan 6, 2022

Veridican said:

I would be more of a synopsis of my writings. I can do 5,000 to 1,0000 words on each chapter, so with a limited space I gave a barebones synopsis in order to show people the Exact Timeline of the book pf Revelation.

It's covered in Three Posts HERE: https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...top-causing-fear.199566/page-101#post-4728488

Page 101.........Posts 2007, 2008 and 2009.

What I have been given over time is the 100 percent correct timeline and only when we understand the Timeline can we piece together more coherently what is going on in the book of Revelation.

Veridican said:

We know its John because its in the bible, God allowed it in the bible, anyone who can't tell that is John the beloved is just trying to go overboard with analysis. No one would FAKE a Gospel, and if you give another person your writing and have a ghost writer even in the modern world you get credit as "The Author". One of the only guys I know who writes all his books is Mark Levine. If you give dictation or give someone manuscripts, you are still the writer. I don't buy much of anything people from the RCC tell us in modern times, they are a little cuckoo for coco puffs if you know what I mean, we have these great Professors who tell us Jesus could not have ever lived, that there is no proof of God, tbh, I don't pay them any attention. I can tell by the writings its John the Beloved. No one but one of the 12 could write that Gospel, and John was not Martyred, the other 11 were all killed. This is why Peter asked Jesus that question Lucy points to in post 51, "What about him Lord", you see, Jesus told them all in Matthew 24 they were all going to die Martyrs, thus Jesus must have also told John he would ne be Martyred, Jesus had a mission for John, to write the book of Revelation, thus try as they might, these wicked men could no kill him, thus they placed him on an Island.

These Church documents got passed down, do you think they just willy nilly allowed a document to be ascribed unto John that wasn't from John? And the Holy Spirit is able to place that which he wished in the bible. These professors ate for the most part just silly gossipers. I can tell by reading its a true Gospel of Jesus Christ, and thus only John was a Disciple named John. Case closed on that, and John wrote the book of Revelation but was NOT the Author per se, God was, the very bible tells us God gave this book to Jesus who gave it to HIS SERVANT John. The rest is just men speculating on what the Holy Spirit confirms by using common sense. John was the Beloved who wrote the Gospel, and the one who was goin to outlive the other 11 Disciples, thus he was the John of the book of Revelation, its just not really debate to me, its conjecture by others, but not by me.

Veridican said:

Yes, the Holy Spirit has been guiding me for over 35 years, and I understand the book of Revelation via God, not via other men. I don't trust men in general on God, unless the Holy Spirit confirms what they say via the Unction of the Holy Spirit, does this not happen with you brother? We can't know a lot of things in the flesh, we can know all things in the Spirit. Seems you don't quite grasp that very important aspect. No one, I repeat NO ONE will ever find God nor understand His Holy Word without the Spirit revealing it unto them, men trying to find God are with their minds are in deed just wasting their time. We can only find God by FAITH ALONE, and then He will reveal all things unto us, not via our intellect, but via the Holy Spirit quenching our hunger and thirst for God's TRUTHS!!

I imagine you are just being overtly critical on these aspects to give proper weight to the task at hand, that's OK, but remember, all mem have agendas for the most part, when you see someone who appears selfless and without an agenda then that can be a good thing or a bad things (SMILE), some people will wrote for free to d Satan's bidding and some people to do God's bidding. Some people only wrote for profit, personally I don't see writing a book (I am writing a book of Prophecy) for profit, but God may desire me to make money and reseed it unto Him, but, like you, I am doing it for God, not for profit.

Have a nice day brother.

Lucy-Pevensie · Jan 6, 2022

pottersclay said:

Domitian?

Veridican · Jan 6, 2022

Rondonmon said:

Yes...that's exactly what "they" did. The Gospel of John is clearly inspired by the Holy Spirit. It has no known author. It never has. It wasn't called the "Gospel According to John" until around 150 AD.

No, the case is not closed. It's an anonymous document. We call it John, that's it. WE KNOW it's an anonymous document. Even if John is written by John, we have no idea what John. One could even argue it was written by Lazarus.

And that's fine. If you feel you know in your spirit these things, then I can't argue with that. But, and I'll be posting this on my site soon, there is a good reason for these documents to be anonymous--God WOULD do it that way. It's a very clever strategy (not that God needs me to tell Him He's clever).

You, too!

ewq1938 · Jan 6, 2022

Veridican said:

No, we know exactly which John it is as long as we all believe scripture is true:

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

That identifies this John as the John of the 12 disciples.

keiw · Jan 6, 2022

Veridican said:

Is it just me, or does anyone else get the sense that a mysterious person actually wrote Revelation? Look at 1:1. It reads:

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant, John, (Rev 1:1, NIV 1984 ed.)

Okay...so... God gave Jesus a revelation of the things that must soon take place. Jesus then made it known to John by sending his angel to John. ...all well and good, BUT...

Who's doing the talking here? Rev 1:1-3 sounds like a third party. I'm not saying I believe this, but I started an exegesis of Revelation today, and it just popped out at me. I've never heard anyone ever suggest it before.

What is your take on it? View attachment 234598

3 speakers in revelation--God, Jesus, and John.

Revelation's Mystery Author? Rev 1:1-3 suggests a third-party author

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