Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
How would God throw a "system" into the LoF? I do see how He would throw a human being in there.

By not allowing Satan the use of anything like it again.

Sytems are run by either humans or angels. And by the time of the LoF, all unbeleivers and fallen angels will have NO ABILITY to set up any systems. Problem solved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You believe a 'man' will have 10 heads?

I believe a man can be in charge of 10 kingdoms, or even more.

I try not to get in the weeds in Revelation. Sure, there are a lot of things that are apparently impossible to understand, that is, until they actually occur. Then those who are watching will probably slap their heads, and say "of course! Why didn't I think of that?"

 

[FreeGrace2]

Matt 22 - When we die we are resurrected to our spiritual bodies and are so like the angels (body change) upon death, whenever that unexpectedly comes

Huh? When we die, we go to heaven. In the OT, they went to Hades, Paradise. As the verses I quoted show clearly, there is a single resurrection, and it occurs "WHEN He comes" a reference to the Second Advent.

Luke 14 - Isn't a body change it is the GWTJ where rewards for works are given (not a body change but a status or rank change)

Jesus was teaching about the singular resurrrection. There is one for the unsaved and one for the saved.

Acts 24 - All are changed. All will receive their heavenly bodies.

" and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

This shows only that there will be a single resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved. It doesn't say at the same time, and certainly the resurrection of the unsaved is for the GWT. There will be NO "heavenly bodies" for the unsaved.

The ALIVE in Christ resurrect to LIFE, them DEAD resurrect to DEATH (again, when ever this flesh bodies dies - a body change - from the 'seen' world to the 'unseen' world)

"those who belong to Him" will be resurrected all at the same event, and will face the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor 5:10). All unbelievers will be resurrected (in their human bodies) to appear at the GWT judgment and receive judgment on their lives on earth and then be cast into the LoF.

1 Cor 15 CHRIST RISES FIRST FROM ALL THOSE WHO SLEPT, and those 'SLEPT' are those who have been sleeping 'the captives' of death who will come to faith upon hearing HIM and the graves will open and HE will lead the captivity captive and FROM THAT MOMENT ON THE POWER OF DEATH OVER THOSE WHO HAVE COME TO FAITH CEASES TO EXIST. THIS IS PART OF THE WORK ON THE CROSS. THE 'LAST DAY' OF SATAN HAVING POWER OF DEATH OVER THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SAVED HAS ENDED. THE GIFT OF SALVATION IS NOW UPON US. THE PENALTY OF THE SIN THE FIRST ADAM COMITTED ONLY FALLS UPON THOSE WHO HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION. NO ONE CAN COME TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH THE SON. BUT THOSE WHO HAVE TAKEN THE SON AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR HE COMES TO MEET TO BRING THEM TO THE PLACE HE PREPARED.

THE REST JUST GO TO HELL AND WAIT TO BE RAISED FROM THERE NOT RESURRECTED.

There is nothing like this in 1 Cor or anywhere else. Didn't you say you didn't believe in soul sleep? So why do you mention it here?

There is no sleeping. All believers who die are in heaven, awaiting the return to earth with King Jesus and getting their glorified bodies.

And John 5:29 isn't about the whole human race, but only saved people.

SOME HOW this has been lost along the way and I don't understand it. IT IS LIKE ONE OF THE BEST THINGS ABOUT coming to faith. DEATH isn't anything, but a GOOD CHANGE for those who believe!!! We go from walking through the valley of the shadow of death to BEING WHERE HE IS, resting, until we return for the Lords DAy. THEN it's back to work to TRY to bring as many to repentance as possible. We have a thousand years to teach all those 'raised' up from the grave when Christ and the armies of heaven return.

Death surely is a huge thing for the unsaved!! They will realize that there IS an afterlife. And they will learn from the others in Torments what's going on. And what will await them.

Again, Luke 16 shows that the rich man realized his 5 brothers needed warning and wanted Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We are doing really well up until this one point and where you have 'unbelievers' not raising up until the END of the Lords Day I have them raising up when CHRIST RETURNS AND THIS IS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE LORDS DAY.

I take my cue from Rev 20. It begins with the end of the battle of Armageddon and the end of the Trib when King Jesus returns. There will be the singular resurrection of all believers, who will "reign with Christ" or at least serve Him in His kingdom, depends on their evaluation at the Bema.

Then Satan is bound during the reign of the King until the end, and then loosened so he will deceive the nations again, leading to a global rebellion against the King, who slays everyone. So their souls go to Hades (Torments) and THEN resurrected to face the GWT.

The GWT doesn't occur when King Jesus returns. There will be a 1,000 year reign first. And then the GWT.

The Lords Day is FOR those who died NOT HAVING FOUND LIFE, NOT HAVING CHOSE LIFE for reasons they didn't believe because they went to a church that didn't TEACH TRUTH but TAUGHT lies or false doctrine so never came to the truth. Those nations who were all their life taught of another 'god' who IF THEY HAD HEARD THE TRUTH WOULD HAVE been better Christians than we are. (sorry, I think us to be a bit lazy or lacking in discipline). Or never were exposed. ALL THESE are still children of God. THAT is why all of us will be needed to rule and reign and judge for the 1000 years.

I don't know where you get your information from, but what is obvious to me is that the Lord's Day is a period of time where the Lord is pre-emminent. That would obviously be during His Millennial reign. And all the living unbelievers will be ruled with a rod of iron (very strict) because they will be held to the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I am nit going to spend time arguing with you about what is evident in the bible. I fond all you guy who to not understand the Pre Trib Rapture get most everything else wrong also.

Oh, that's funny.

Can you quote any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured people to heaven?

No, you can't. So please don't preach to us.

I fully understand the pretrib rapture. I was raised on it. But now I know the truth. Jesus doesn't take anyone to heaven in their glorified bodies just before the Trib, or even after the Trib.

But you are free to change my mind with a verse that makes a pretrib rapture clear and unambiguous.

 

[kleronomos]

I take my cue from Rev 20. It begins with the end of the battle of Armageddon and the end of the Trib when King Jesus returns. There will be the singular resurrection of all believers, who will "reign with Christ" or at least serve Him in His kingdom, depends on their evaluation at the Bema.

Then Satan is bound during the reign of the King until the end, and then loosened so he will deceive the nations again, leading to a global rebellion against the King, who slays everyone. So their souls go to Hades (Torments) and THEN resurrected to face the GWT.

The GWT doesn't occur when King Jesus returns. There will be a 1,000 year reign first. And then the GWT.


I don't know where you get your information from, but what is obvious to me is that the Lord's Day is a period of time where the Lord is pre-emminent. That would obviously be during His Millennial reign. And all the living unbelievers will be ruled with a rod of iron (very strict) because they will be held to the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

I understand your beliefs and Thank you for the responses.

 

[Phoneman-777]

So what then, if there is NO CONSEQUENCES for sin, other than ceasing to exist? Why can't you guys admit that when if a person ceases to exist, they experience nothing, because they have become nothing? In THAT state, there are NO CONSEQUENCES.

Look, do people fight to have a death sentence upgraded or reduced to life without parole?

That the death penalty can only be reduced proves unequivocally it's not only a judicial punitive consequence, but the most severe possible. You might say, "Juries can't impose "eternal torment", but God can..." but even humanity recognizes the injustice of punishing a criminal with torture let alone never ending torture, and to say God will impose eternal torment is deny Job 4:17 KJV, "Shall mortal man be more just than God?"

All atheists expect that at death, they will simply cease to exist. So whatever they have done during their life won't matter because they will NOT suffer any CONSEQUENCES for them, regardless of how bad they may be.

So what? Atheist believe many truths that can be traced to the Bible. I knew one personally who believed holding a grudge is psychologically harmful, punishment should fit the crime, extortion is wrong, marital infidelity is wrong, etc.

To cease to exist means to experience nothing. No suffering. Esp suffering NO CONSEQUENCES.

Again, the Bible doesn't once refer to "everlasting punishing" -- it says "everlasting punishment". That which is everlasting is not the process, but the result.

But you guys seem to be just too stubborn admitting this fact.

Yes, we feel the same way about the "immortal soul" crowd who thinks the soul is immortal, and thus subject to an eternal existence in hellfire as they willfully ignore the texts that teach God alone is immortal and only shares it with the saints. (1 Timothy 6:15-16 KJV; Romans 2:7-9 KJV)

Why would anyone fear "nothing", for that is exactly what annihilation is; nothing. Nothing left. Nothing to experience. Zip.

Really? Christians fear death even though they claim they're immediately transported to eternal existence with Jesus, yet somehow the wicked who are sentenced to annihilation without hope of existence ever again will stand with open arms awaiting the devouring fire to fall from God?


claim when they die, they go straight to heaven, but diagnose one with terminal cancer and the fear of death take hold. Are you saying the Second Death is no less a fearful prospect than dying of cancer?

 

[Phoneman-777]

This is really delusional.

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You know from what word "forever" is translated? "Aionios" which means "duration, either undefined but not endless, or undefined because endless". IOW, "we don't know how long it is, but it's not continuing without end" or "we don't know how long it is because it's never going to end"

"Mr. Phoneman-777, you can't possibly mean "forever" doesn't necessarily mean "eternal" and "everlasting"?

Most scholars agree that "forever" in relation to the things of God means "eternal" while in relation to mankind means "all the days of life". That's why Samuel was lent to the Lord "forever" but later clarified "until he dies", Jonah was in the belly "forever", a slave preferring to stay a slave was to have his ear pierced as a sign he would remain his master's slave "forever" - do ya think he'll be a slave in heaven, or did "forever" refer to "all the days of life"??? Many times, the word "forever" was used Biblically in connection with events that had came to an end.

So, yes, the devil will burn "forever and ever" all the remaining days of his life but eventually his life will be snuffed out and never will he be anymore. The wicked will also drink the cup of God's wrath, swallow down, and "shall be as though they had not been."

 

[Evmur]

There is nothing merciful about torturing humans for all eternity for 70 short years of sin.

Job asks "Shall mortal man be MORE just than God?" We recognize the injustice of punishing a shoplifter with burning them alive, but it seems the "immortal soul" crowd thinks they're MORE just than God Who will burn people alive for all eternity.

They are not being punished for shoplifting or even for murdering, they are being punished because they loved Satan more than God.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Please explain why Jesus gave a "parable" that was totally unreal and fantasy that has NO parallel in human life? Can you? In EVERY parable that Jesus gave, there was a REALISTIC scenario that EVERYONE CAN relate to.

Since when does a parable have to be "parallel to human life"? Did Jotham's parable of the trees have a parallel in life where trees walked and talked and made terrible life choices?

Except Luke 16 and the beggar and rich man. If all souls sleep until the resurrertion, Jesus' account violates EVERY criteria of all His other parables.

The only way what Jesus said doesn't violate Biblical criteria is if WAS a parable!

• Are all the dead clinging simultaneously to Abraham's bosom?
• What are the three of them doing with body parts they aren't supposed to get until the resurrection?
• Why do these dead demonstrate knowledge, wisdom, emotions, memory, ability to lay plans, etc., when Solomon plainly says the dead can do nothing of the kind?
• Why are they not in the grave where they're supposed to be since Job said that's where he'd be waiting for his "change" from mortality to immortality which he said would be "after Thy wrath" of the 7 last plagues?
• How can one drop of water cool off anyone engulfed in flame?
• How can a dude engulfed in flame carry on a conversation with anyone?

My interpretation = no violation. Your interpretation = violations galore

 

[Phoneman-777]

Don't question God, just believe scripture. When you don't take the Bible literally, you can make it say anything you want. Abraham's bosom was an actual place during the OT until Jesus led those in captivity free. Btw, the heart of the earth is a very large place.

Wait, you're calling Abraham's bosom a "place" and not a body part? You said we're supposed to take the Bible literally.

(BTW, that's Jewish tradition which finds no Biblical support and is no more authoritative than RCC traditions)

 

[Phoneman-777]

They are not being punished for shoplifting or even for murdering, they are being punished because they loved Satan more than God.

True, but what does the Bible say is the punishment? Eternal torment?

"For the wages of sin is death." That's a strange way to spell "life of eternal torment", dont you think?

 

[Phoneman-777]

The only DEATH any soul has experienced so far is death of the flesh. No souls die till the end of the Lords Day. Death and Judgment. Lake of fire comes at the end

Sometimes it's just too easy:

"And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people." - Leviticus 20:6 KJV​

Question 1: Does "soul" refer to a disembodied poltergeist like in "Ghost", or a whole person by referencing "his"?
Question 2: Was Saul one of those souls that suffered the penalty for seeking after a familiar spirit? Yes, according to 1 Chronicles 10:13 KJV

 

[John146]

Wait, you're calling Abraham's bosom a "place" and not a body part? You said we're supposed to take the Bible literally.

(BTW, that's Jewish tradition which finds no Biblical support and is no more authoritative than RCC traditions)

Allowing scripture to interpret itself, bosom is used to mean one's side, literally. Abraham was literally in the heart of the earth and the OT saints were placed by his side until the shed blood of Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
So what then, if there is NO CONSEQUENCES for sin, other than ceasing to exist? Why can't you guys admit that when if a person ceases to exist, they experience nothing, because they have become nothing? In THAT state, there are NO CONSEQUENCES.

Look, do people fight to have a death sentence upgraded or reduced to life without parole?

Are you really missing the point on purpose? Or, because of your flawed idea that all souls sleep, you can't see that there is consciousness after death?

Regardless, your view lines up exactly with that of atheists. They expect to NOT exist when they die. No thoughts, no emotions, no pain, no feelings of any kind. So what's to fear in that? NOTHING is what.

And, by ceasing to exist, there is NOTHING to experience in the way of suffering consequences.

Back to your example above. The reason a criminal would want an "upgrade" from a death penalty is that they want to continue living in the present circumstance of life. They DON'T KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT after physical death, and THAT is what most people are scared about or want to avoid.

You either will understand this or you don't want to, because it challenges your soul sleep and annihilation ideas.

That the death penalty can only be reduced proves unequivocally it's not only a judicial punitive consequence, but the most severe possible.

It is, but ONLY for this life only. Every unbeliever will face the GWT judgment. And they will receive a MUCH WORSE consequence for refusing God's free gift of eternal life. And note, it is a consequence, not a punishment, per se.

Christians fear death even though they claim they're immediately transported to eternal existence with Jesus, yet somehow the wicked who are sentenced to annihilation without hope of existence ever again will stand with open arms awaiting the devouring fire to fall from God?

Those Christians who fear death are IGNORANT of God's Word. They have no excuse.

But, what most people fear, whether saved or unsaved, is the pain involved in many kinds of death.

claim when they die, they go straight to heaven, but diagnose one with terminal cancer and the fear of death take hold.

Either it's the fear of the pain involved in the cancer or they are stupidly ignorant of God's Word. I believe it is fear of pain.

Are you saying the Second Death is no less a fearful prospect than dying of cancer?

If your annihilation theory is correct, why would anyone fear it at all? They won't be there to experience anything. Why can't you see that?

Do you really not understand what a CONSEQUENCE is for? To EXPERIENCE the result of certain behaviors.

If there is NO EXPERIENCE for any kind of behavior, then there is NO CONSEQUENCE.

If you can't grasp this, then there is really no use in further discussion. This point is at the core of the issue.

If you can't grasp the core, you are totally unable to grasp even the issue.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
This is really delusional.

Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You know from what word "forever" is translated? "Aionios" which means "duration, either undefined but not endless, or undefined because endless". IOW, "we don't know how long it is, but it's not continuing without end" or "we don't know how long it is because it's never going to end"

Didn't you even read what you wrote about the definition of the word.

You wrote "undefined BECAUSE ENDLESS". But it seems you just passed over that as if it didn't exist. Did you annihilate it or something?

You need to pay attention to what you write. You just shot yourself in the foot. How's that hole feeling about now?

Most scholars agree that "forever" in relation to the things of God means "eternal" while in relation to mankind means "all the days of life".

Since the lake of fire is God's creation, there is NO REASON to default to your "in relation to mankind" defense. God created the LoF for the devil and his fallen angels. It's all God's plan, and He adds unbelievers to it. So the word means "undefined because endless".

So, yes, the devil will burn "forever and ever" all the remaining days of his life but eventually his life will be snuffed out and never will he be anymore.

Go ahead and prove this from Scripture.

Oh, wait. You can't because Rev 20:10 WON'T LET YOU.

The very words 'day and night for ever and ever' is very clear to clear thinking believers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Phoneman-777 said:
There is nothing merciful about torturing humans for all eternity for 70 short years of sin.

Job asks "Shall mortal man be MORE just than God?" We recognize the injustice of punishing a shoplifter with burning them alive, but it seems the "immortal soul" crowd thinks they're MORE just than God Who will burn people alive for all eternity.

They are not being punished for shoplifting or even for murdering, they are being punished because they loved Satan more than God.

Here is another idea.

Those who will end up in the LoF aren't being punished at all. All sin was paid for by Jesus Christ, and there is no double indemnity.

Those ending up in the LoF are there precisely because they never appropriated the FREE gift of God, which is eternal life. In order to live with God for eternity, one must be qualified to live with God. That means having God's life.

Unbelievers do not have eternal life, so they cannot live with God in eternity.

And, there are only 2 locations for existence in eternity. Being with God (new earth - Rev 21) or apart from God (LoF).

So, every human who ends up in the LoF did it to themselves.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Please explain why Jesus gave a "parable" that was totally unreal and fantasy that has NO parallel in human life? Can you? In EVERY parable that Jesus gave, there was a REALISTIC scenario that EVERYONE CAN relate to.

Since when does a parable have to be "parallel to human life"?

Uh, because that's what they ARE. Show me any parable that is totally fantastic and cannot be real. I'll wait.

Did Jotham's parable of the trees have a parallel in life where trees walked and talked and made terrible life choices?

Who cares about Jotham? I'm talking about what Jesus said. You cannot prove that Luke 16 and Lazarus is a parable. You only claim tht to preserve your silly soul sleep ideas.

The only way what Jesus said doesn't violate Biblical criteria is if WAS a parable!

1. Are all the dead clinging simultaneously to Abraham's bosom?

No. Only the saved people from the OT. Now, all saved people are IN heaven with Jesus and will return with Him for the single resurrection at the end of the Trib.

1. What are the three of them doing with body parts they aren't supposed to get until the resurrection?

Since the rich man recognized Abraham and King Saul recognized Samuel, it should be obvious that souls are recognizable. The fact that the Bible doesn't describe how is immaterial. What is material is that souls ARE.

1. Why do these dead demonstrate knowledge, wisdom, emotions, memory, ability to lay plans, etc., when Solomon plainly says the dead can do nothing of the kind?

Because Solomon was obviously talking about life on earth. And the souls of the dead aren't on earth.

1. Why are they not in the grave where they're supposed to be since Job said that's where he'd be waiting for his "change" from mortality to immortality which he said would be "after Thy wrath" of the 7 last plagues?

Because souls do not stay with their physical bodies. Haven't you ever read James 2:26?

1. How can one drop of water cool off anyone engulfed in flame?

He was that desperate.

1. How can a dude engulfed in flame carry on a conversation with anyone?

So, go ahead and NOT believe the Bible. That's on you. I believe what I read.

My interpretation = no violation. Your interpretation = violations galore

Again, all this is just your flawed interpretation.

Please find ANY parable that is too fantastic to be real and mentions the names of real people now dead. Luke 16 won't count.

What you will find is that there are NO parables that do that. So what Jesus told us proves that souls continue to be conscious after death.

John saw souls in heaven. King Saul saw Samuel who had already died.

This is getting old. You just don't want to face the truth.

 

[Evmur]

True, but what does the Bible say is the punishment? Eternal torment?

"For the wages of sin is death." That's a strange way to spell "life of eternal torment", dont you think?

If death as in ceasing to exist were true why would God resurrect them? why not just leave them dead?

Of COURSE they are in torment, to hate God is to hate everything good for He is the Creator of every good thing. They are greedy for good things for themselves so they steal and grab and kill to get good things for themselves but deny the same for everybody else.

"The kingdom of heaven cometh with violence and the violent take it by force" They don't want God, they hate God but they love good things.

,,,, when they die they now have neither God or His good things.

God does not uncreate ....

 

[Phoneman-777]

Allowing scripture to interpret itself, bosom is used to mean one's side, literally. Abraham was literally in the heart of the earth and the OT saints were placed by his side until the shed blood of Christ.

Question: if "Abraham's Bosom" is a real place:

Where did Adam, Eve, Abel, Seth, Noah, Melchizedek, etc., go at their deaths which preceded the birth of Abraham?

Why is it mentioned no where except a passage which should be obvious to anyone is parabolic, seeing that there's so many elements that cannot and do not happen in real experience, such as a man totally engulfed in flame having an intelligent conversation, or dead folks with bodies before the resurrection has taken place?

Why is Abraham the destination of the "seed of Abraham" who "belong to Christ" (Galatians 3:29 KJV) when the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, not Abraham?

ANSWER: BECAUSE "ABRAHAM'S BOSOM" IS SYMBOLIC, AS IS THE REST OF THE PASSAGE.