Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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FreeGrace2 said:
We know all believers get their glorified bodies at the same event, and what will be when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. I see "once each".
Now the kicker:
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
What I read here is that Jesus is the first human to receive His glorified body (firstfruits) and then, WHEN He comes (Second Advent) those who belong to Him. So, who all belongs to Him? Every believer. That would mean from Adam on.
So, all of these verses convince me that there will be just ONE resurrection for the saved.
I view "the Lord's Day" as a period of time that begins with King Jesus coming back to earth to end the Trib and set up His kingdom reign. So I view His "Day" as lasting at least 1,000 years before believers will enter "eternity" on the new earth.
Even though a verse seems to say that WHEN Jesus returns He melts everything, that's not possible, or we can throw out Rev 20 altogether. There will be a 1,000 year reign by King Jesus before the new earth in Rev 21.
We know all believers get their glorified bodies at the same event, and what will be when King Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
Oops. Sorry for the assumption. Here's my evidence for my statement.
Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. I see "once each".
Now the kicker:
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
What I read here is that Jesus is the first human to receive His glorified body (firstfruits) and then, WHEN He comes (Second Advent) those who belong to Him. So, who all belongs to Him? Every believer. That would mean from Adam on.
So, all of these verses convince me that there will be just ONE resurrection for the saved.
Right. Believers who have died and gone to heaven. In fact these people are preparing for the wedding supper and will accompany King Jesus back to earth. All found in Rev 19.
Right. Their bodies are in the grave on earth. Their bodies will be resurrected when King Jesus comes back to earth, with all those souls and meets all living believers on earth in the air. 1 Thess 4.
Yes, there will be angels too, but I don't believe there will be ONLY angels with Jesus.
I think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself here. The present earth doesn't burn up until Rev 21 when the present heaven and earth "pass away" and there will be a new heaven and earth. All this occurs AFTER the Millenial Kingdom on earth.
Agreed!
I view "the Lord's Day" as a period of time that begins with King Jesus coming back to earth to end the Trib and set up His kingdom reign. So I view His "Day" as lasting at least 1,000 years before believers will enter "eternity" on the new earth.
Combined with other verses/texts, such as Rev 20 and 21, there is a time for everything.
Even though a verse seems to say that WHEN Jesus returns He melts everything, that's not possible, or we can throw out Rev 20 altogether. There will be a 1,000 year reign by King Jesus before the new earth in Rev 21.
Amen.
To clarify, what is the point here?
What they don't understand is the spiritual torment that comes when the physical torment is released.
Physical pain is not needed to be tormented. I myself believe that blotted out when compared with an immortal soul dwelling with God in a place to awesome for words is a very good description of being tormented forever. But who am I to define what God sees as torment or not.
I don't believe in 'sleeping', I do believe in 'blotting out' and no eternal torment for individual souls, and I do believe in Satan day and night tormented for the age of ages.
What does that make me?
My answer to that poster was intended to wake him/her up. Sometimes blunt language is necessary.
Titus 1:13 - This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith
Oops. After dealing with the lady who bowed out, and others, I guess I made a wrong assumption with you. I apologize.
Amen.
I certainly has helped me.
Yes, at the end of the 1,000 year reign, the battle of Gog and Magog will be ended in fire. All unbelievers on earth will be killed by fire. That means they go to Hades, awaiting the GWT judgment.
v.10 tells us who is already there: beast and the FP. They ARE there when the devil is cast into that lake.
Rev 19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Yes.
Where is this found?
I believe this is the sole reason people will be in the LoF. Not for sins.
What verse says the LoF will "pass away"? I am not familiar with that idea.
Matt 25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Do you view this as something different than a lake of fire? I do not.
So you take the addition "brimstone" to be a different lake. I don't.
Is there a verse or 2 that clearly distinguishes 2 lakes?
OK.
Amen!!
When "death" is understood as a separation, yes.
Physical death is the separation of soul and body. James 2:26 addresses this.
Spiritual death is the separation of person and God. So "eternal death" is simply eternal separation from God.
FreeGrace2 said:
It seems so easy and simple. If one ceases to exist, there is nothing to feel, suffer, etc. That cannot be a punishment. In fact, that would be a RELIEF of suffering.
Don't you know that people in severe pain beg to be killed, thinking that would end their suffering? Seems to be a universal idea
But, since you don't bleieve in "eternal torment for individual souls", that would mean you do believe in total annihilation for all unbelievers? Is that correct?
Hm. Atheists have that expectation that at death, they will cease to exist and therefore have no more suffering or no more anything.
No one has all the truth. That would be perfection. Now, we only "know in part". 1 Cor 13:12
It seems so easy and simple. If one ceases to exist, there is nothing to feel, suffer, etc. That cannot be a punishment. In fact, that would be a RELIEF of suffering.
Don't you know that people in severe pain beg to be killed, thinking that would end their suffering? Seems to be a universal idea
But to them, thee can't be any "spiritual torment". If one ceases to exist, there is nothing physical or spiritual. There is just...nothing.
I agree. And this requires the soul being "blotted out" is conscious and aware.
Right. Not after death.
Since I believe the LoF and the LoF&B are the same place, I do believe that the beast, FP and all unbelievers will "be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
But, since you don't bleieve in "eternal torment for individual souls", that would mean you do believe in total annihilation for all unbelievers? Is that correct?
Hm. Atheists have that expectation that at death, they will cease to exist and therefore have no more suffering or no more anything.
Like most believers, you have truth and some error. But to err is human, right?
No one has all the truth. That would be perfection. Now, we only "know in part". 1 Cor 13:12
OK. I used the wrong word, though I don't see how that effects the topic.
What if now desiring God to show the wrath and to make known the power of Him bore with much patience vessels of wrath having been fitted for destruction
2675. katartizó ►
Strong's Concordance
katartizó: to complete, prepare
Original Word: καταρτίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katartizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ar-tid'-zo)
Definition: to complete, prepare
Usage: (a) I fit (join) together; met: I compact together, (b) act. and mid: I prepare, perfect, for his (its) full destination or use, bring into its proper condition (whether for the first time, or after a lapse).
HELPS Word-studies
2675 katartízō (from 2596 /katá, "according to, down," intensifying artizō, "to adjust," which is derived from 739 /ártios, "properly adjusted") – properly, exactly fit (adjust) to be in good working order, i.e. adjusted exactly "down" to fully function.
b. to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust: τούς αἰῶνας, the worlds, passive Hebrews 11:3 (so, for הֵכִין, ἥλιον, Psalm 73:16 (); σελήνην, Psalm 88:38 ()); σκεύη κατηρτισμένη εἰς ἀπώλειαν, of men whose souls God has so constituted that they cannot escape destruction (but see Meyer (edited by Weiss) in the place cited), Romans 9:22 (πλοῖα, Polybius 5, 46, 10, and the like); of the mind: κατηρτισμένος ὡς etc. so instructed, equipped, as etc. (cf. Buttmann, 311 (267); but others take κατηρτισμένος as a circumstantial participle "when perfected shall be as (not 'above') his master" (see Meyer, in the place cited); on this view the passage may be referred to the next entry), Luke 6:40; middle to fit or frame for oneself, prepare: αἶνον, Matthew 21:16 (from Psalm 8:3; the Sept. for יָסַד); σῶμα, Hebrews 10:5.
684. apóleia ►
Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Definition: destruction, loss
Usage: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).
684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).
1. actively, a destroying, utter destruction: as, of vessels, Romans 9:22; τοῦ μύρου, waste, Mark 14:4 (in Matthew 26:8 without a genitive) (in Polybius 6, 59, 5 consumption, opposed to τήρησις); the putting of a man to death, Acts 25:16 Rec.; by metonymy, a destructive thing or opinion: in plural 2 Peter 2:2 Rec.; but the correct reading ἀσελγείαις was long ago adopted here.
If you answered what happens to these please skip. The 'created' threw me off as how they came about was not what I was asking about but how they were handled in the end.
WHAT DO YOU FIND TO BE JUST ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT FOR WRONGS DONE IN A FLESH LIFETIME?
Deuteronomy 9:13 Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people 14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
4229. machah
Strong's Concordance
machah: abolish
Original Word: מָחָה
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: machah
Phonetic Spelling: (maw-khaw')
Definition: to wipe, wipe out
Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Psalm 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
Psalm 9:6 O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them.
Psalm 9:7 But the LORD shall endure for ever: He hath prepared His throne for judgment.
Psalm 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, He shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
Psalm 9:12 When he maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble.
Psalm 9:13 Have mercy upon me, O LORD; consider my trouble which I suffer of them that hate me, thou that liftest me up from the gates of death:
Psalm 9:14 That I may shew forth all thy praise in the gates of the daughter of Zion: I will rejoice in thy salvation.
Psalm 9:15 The heathen are sunk down in the pit that they made: in the net which they hid is their own foot taken.
Psalm 9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.
Matt 22 - When we die we are resurrected to our spiritual bodies and are so like the angels (body change) upon death, whenever that unexpectedly comes
Luke 14 - Isn't a body change it is the GWTJ where rewards for works are given (not a body change but a status or rank change)
Acts 24 - All are changed. All will receive their heavenly bodies. The ALIVE in Christ resurrect to LIFE, the DEAD resurrect to DEATH (again, when ever this flesh bodies dies - a body change - from the 'seen' world to the 'unseen' world)
1 Cor 15 CHRIST RISES FIRST FROM ALL THOSE WHO SLEPT, and those 'SLEPT' are those who have been sleeping 'the captives' of death who will come to faith upon hearing HIM and the graves will open and HE will lead the captivity captive and FROM THAT MOMENT ON THE POWER OF DEATH OVER THOSE WHO HAVE COME TO FAITH CEASES TO EXIST. THIS IS PART OF THE WORK ON THE CROSS. THE 'LAST DAY' OF SATAN HAVING POWER OF DEATH OVER THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SAVED HAS ENDED. THE GIFT OF SALVATION IS NOW UPON US. THE PENALTY OF THE SIN THE FIRST ADAM COMITTED ONLY FALLS UPON THOSE WHO HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION. NO ONE CAN COME TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH THE SON. BUT THOSE WHO HAVE TAKEN THE SON AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR HE COMES TO MEET TO BRING THEM TO THE PLACE HE PREPARED.
THE REST JUST GO TO HELL AND WAIT TO BE RAISED FROM THERE NOT RESURRECTED.
NOW HERE is the kicker
When all of GODS CHILDREN return to the earth with CHRIST once Satan has killed the two witnesses, the Brightness of HIS COMING destroys Satan (he dies and is buried) and his
and the ALIVE AND REMAINING, those who have overcome, have withstood the fiery darts of Satan, those who have endured to the end, the wise virgins who took enough oil, those who put on the gospel armor, those who have remained faithful, those who were not deceived by any man, those who didn't follow after the doctrines of man,
are 'caught up' and joined up with their brethren, to be forever with the LORD
THE first resurrection being spoken of is OF ALL THOSE WHO DIE IN FAITH HAVING TAKEN THE SON OF GOD AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR. ALL OF US WHO DO, DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT DEATH ANY MORE. JESUS PAID THE PRICE FOR US. SATAN DOESN'T GET TO HOLD ON TO ANYONE BUT THOSE WHO HAVE NOT BEEN SAVED.
JESUS is the FIRST of the many who have slept. AND THE GRAVES WERE OPENED. Though the whole captivity wasn't seen walking around, many were so that there would be witnesses to the defeat of being in bondage to death.
NO SIN, NO DEATH. WHAT the law could not do, it could not render forgiveness, Jesus did.
SOME HOW this has been lost along the way and I don't understand it. IT IS LIKE ONE OF THE BEST THINGS ABOUT coming to faith. DEATH isn't anything, but a GOOD CHANGE for those who believe!!! We go from walking through the valley of the shadow of death to BEING WHERE HE IS, resting, until we return for the Lords DAy. THEN it's back to work to TRY to bring as many to repentance as possible. We have a thousand years to teach all those 'raised' up from the grave when Christ and the armies of heaven return.
Yep, old appears new to those who know not, like Jesus' two "new" commandments, both of which are found in the OT.
What does scripture mean...God speaking...I knew you before the womb?
Really? Ezekiel says the soul that sinneth, it shall die; James says conversion saves a soul from death; Revelation says when the waters shall be turned to blood in the seven last plagues, "every living soul died in the sea, etc. I could go on.
Look, in addition to Genesis 2:7 KJV, we all know the Bible repeatedly uses "soul" in reference to the whole person, so when we read about a "soul in" this or that," we should never from that conclude that "Soul" means "component". Since "nephesh" and "psyche" mean "life", we should properly conclude "soul in me" means "my life" and "soul in Sheol" means "my death" - because, as Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly teaches, the Soul which is a "whole" made up of the sum of it's parts - the Body and the Breath of Life - exists only as a consequence of the union of those parts, the Body and the Breath of Life.
Regarding Ezekiel 18:4 KJV, since the Bible puts "spiritual death" in the present tense, "the soul that sinneth shall die" can only refer to the future, literal death of the Soul when the Breath of Life permanently returns to God, the Body turns to the ashes upon which we will trample (Malachi 4:3 KJV), and the Soul shall cease to be in eternal death from which there will be no resurrection.
We are doing really well up until this one point and where you have 'unbelievers' not raising up until the END of the Lords Day I have them raising up when CHRIST RETURNS AND THIS IS THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE LORDS DAY.
The Lords Day is FOR those who died NOT HAVING FOUND LIFE, NOT HAVING CHOSE LIFE for reasons they didn't believe because they went to a church that didn't TEACH TRUTH but TAUGHT lies or false doctrine so never came to the truth. Those nations who were all their life taught of another 'god' who IF THEY HAD HEARD THE TRUTH WOULD HAVE been better Christians than we are. (sorry, I think us to be a bit lazy or lacking in discipline). Or never were exposed. ALL THESE are still children of God. THAT is why all of us will be needed to rule and reign and judge for the 1000 years.
side note: I don't believe those who did hear the truth and then turned from it will be amongst that group. I believe they are with the group that DOESN'T RISE till the GWTJ and they are just judged into the lake of fire, no second chances.
So at the end of the 1000 years of teaching Satan is loosed and those who were raised up either follow Satan or go from being 'dead' to finally being resurrected to eternal life.
The only DEATH any soul has experienced so far is death of the flesh. No souls die till the end of the Lords Day. Death and Judgment. Lake of fire comes at the end when
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
I have to get back to this later. There are more on the cleansing at the beginning and the one at the end. They are different. Thank you
Too much coffee and not enough water, so I got some Gatorade Zero (Diabetic) and needed the Electrolytes, felling better today.
I am nit going to spend time arguing with you about what is evident in the bible. I fond all you guy who to not understand the Pre Trib Rapture get most everything else wrong also.
I already showed what katartizo means. It clearly doesn't mean "create". The verse says those who will be destroyed have to be "retrofitted" or adjusted to fit. iow, no one is created for destruction. That is an erroneous reformed doctrine.
Since we know from Jesus' account of the after life in OT times, we know that souls continue to exist. I absolutely am convinced that Rev 20:10 refers to everyone who gets thrown into the LoF, which to me is the same as the LoF&B.
I do not agree with annihilation.
It's not about justice anyway. I already explained WHY people will be cast into the LoF. They didn't receive the free gift of eternal life and that is the only location in eternity for them to exist. That it will be "more" or "less" bearable for some than others is based on their being judged on their actions during their life on earth.
So, those who were evil during their lives will experience a much less bearable existence than those who lived quiet and peaceful lives on earth.
I get it. Annihilationists cannot get over the word "destroy".
2 Peter 3:6 - By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Definition: to destroy, destroy utterly
Usage: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).
I see that the Greek word is used to mean "kill", "lose" (certainly when people are cast into the LoF they lose, and the idea of a death as certain.
What I don't see as a choice is to cease to exist. And to "destroy utterly" can still apply to being cast into the LoF, losing physical life rather quickly but STILL being conscious without end.
Are you just bothered by the fact that souls will experience suffering for an eternity? And therefore are forced to conclude that God won't do that to people?
Because if you are, you are reacting emotionally to a fact. God isn't emotional. He is rational. His plans are totally just, whatever they are.
If you can find any verse that clearly says that souls are extinguished, then I'll have to believe it. But I haven't found any.
And, like the Bereans of Acts 17:11, I have been looking closely for any.