The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Diakonos]

I agree that God (father, Son & Holy Spirit) described their relationship with Israel as a `husband,` master, and Israel as a wife. 9Isa. 54)

He was married to Israel before the Church was born. Do you disagree?

Not seeing John saying that he was not the bride. (John 1: 29, your reference)

That's ok, I'll explain. Also, I hope you are reading the references I have included. Otherwise, you won't understand where I derive my conclusions from.

““He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him,
rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full.” (John 3:29)​

In vs 26, John the Baptist's followers were pointing out how Jesus was getting all the attraction now. Either they were upset at this or they thought John might be. But it didn't bother John at all because John's purpose was not to maintain this level of attraction, Jesus was. John's task was to prepare the world for the coming of Messiah, the “Groom.” Like a relay race, John was handing the baton (his followers) to Jesus. John's joy was full because Jesus' ministry was gaining speed (vs 30) and it was His time to take the spotlight. In vs 29, John says there is a bride, a Bridegroom, and a friend of the bridegroom...he identifies himself as the "friend of the bridegroom" by the association of his own joy.

Paul was speaking in reference to Christ and His church, His Body, that how He loved His Body, is how a husband should love His own body, his wife.

The "mystery" in vs 32 refers to the unity that marriage brings between two (previously separate) entities. The previous verse (31) says "the two shall become one". human reason alone cannot understand that...it is a mystery. Paul says he speaks of this in reference to Christ and the Church. Christ and the Church will be joined and become one in spirit.

“But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.” (1 Corinthians 6:17)​

The Church is betrothed to Christ (2 Cor 11:2).

The Gk. word is `it` NOT `her. And referring back to the 4 chapters that Paul described the New Man.

The New Man ἄνθρωπος (Eph 2:15) does not promote either gender because "man" has a genderless meaning.

ἀνήρ (aner) is a biological "man"
γυνή (gune) is a biological "woman"
ἄνθρωπος (anthropos) is "person(s)/human(s)"...
...(translated as "man" in many cases in the sense of "mankind"...e.g. "man shall not live by bread alone"(Lk 4:4)

So referencing the "New Man" ἄνθρωπος of Eph 2 is not evidence against the notion of a feminine connotation for the Church in chapter 5.


That being said,
You may not be aware of the difference between the Greek word for "it" and "her".
αὐτός (autos) is "him", "it" or "her" depending on context.
αὐτὴν (autan) is more specific.... it means "her" because it is conjugated as the feminine form AND it is a personal pronoun.

​

The `wife` had to make herself ready through righteous acts, (Rev. 19: 7 & 8) We, the Body of Christ are righteous through Christ, not our righteous acts.

I wasn't quoting the verse verbatim. But she actually is called the "bride" and the "wife" in Rev 21:9. So there's no need to be nitpicky to the degree you are expressing. I used the word "bride" because we're talking about the wedding. When people think of the word "bride", they think of a wedding dress, which is relevant to our conversation.

Concerning the fine linen Rev 19:8; Eph 5:26, are you a KJV onlyist?



Recap:
-God was married to Israel before the Church was born (Isa 54:5).
-The Church is currently betrothed to Christ (2 Cor 11:2)
-John the Baptist identifies himself as the friend of the Groom, rather than the bride (John 3:29).
-The mystery of the two becoming one is what Paul speaks of in reference to Christ and the Church (Eph 5:31-32).
-The Church has a feminine connotation because of how αὐτὴν (auten) is conjugated (Eph 5:26).

 

[EarlDumarest]

"The rapture is true."

You mean the church dogma- for the word isn't in scripture....

 

[Marilyn]

The body of Christ started when people first accepted him as Messiah. We know that in hindsight even if they did not know of it at the time.

Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

This pre-dates Eph. 1: 20 - 23 by many years. That is the body of Christ following Christ, even with their own spiritual crosses!

Yes some people of that time could have eventually come into the Body of Christ. However it would have to be AT and AFTER Pentecost, because that was when the Holy spirit was poured out to `set` the members in the Body of Christ. (Acts 2: 4, 1 Cor. 12: 18)

People who were saved before that time either were of Israel`s inheritance or the OT saint`s inheritance. (Heb. 11: 16)

 

[Marilyn]

He was married to Israel before the Church was born. Do you disagree?

That's ok, I'll explain. Also, I hope you are reading the references I have included. Otherwise, you won't understand where I derive my conclusions from.

““He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him,
rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full.” (John 3:29)​

In vs 26, John the Baptist's followers were pointing out how Jesus was getting all the attraction now. Either they were upset at this or they thought John might be. But it didn't bother John at all because John's purpose was not to maintain this level of attraction, Jesus was. John's task was to prepare the world for the coming of Messiah, the “Groom.” Like a relay race, John was handing the baton (his followers) to Jesus. John's joy was full because Jesus' ministry was gaining speed (vs 30) and it was His time to take the spotlight. In vs 29, John says there is a bride, a Bridegroom, and a friend of the bridegroom...he identifies himself as the "friend of the bridegroom" by the association of his own joy.


The "mystery" in vs 32 refers to the unity that marriage brings between two (previously separate) entities. The previous verse (31) says "the two shall become one". human reason alone cannot understand that...it is a mystery. Paul says he speaks of this in reference to Christ and the Church. Christ and the Church will be joined and become one in spirit.

“But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.” (1 Corinthians 6:17)​

The Church is betrothed to Christ (2 Cor 11:2).


The New Man ἄνθρωπος (Eph 2:15) does not promote either gender because "man" has a genderless meaning.

ἀνήρ (aner) is a biological "man"
γυνή (gune) is a biological "woman"
ἄνθρωπος (anthropos) is "person(s)/human(s)"...
...(translated as "man" in many cases in the sense of "mankind"...e.g. "man shall not live by bread alone"(Lk 4:4)

So referencing the "New Man" ἄνθρωπος of Eph 2 is not evidence against the notion of a feminine connotation for the Church in chapter 5.


That being said,
You may not be aware of the difference between the Greek word for "it" and "her".
αὐτός (autos) is "him", "it" or "her" depending on context.
αὐτὴν (autan) is more specific.... it means "her" because it is conjugated as the feminine form AND it is a personal pronoun.

View attachment 234536

​

I wasn't quoting the verse verbatim. But she actually is called the "bride" and the "wife" in Rev 21:9. So there's no need to be nitpicky to the degree you are expressing. I used the word "bride" because we're talking about the wedding. When people think of the word "bride", they think of a wedding dress, which is relevant to our conversation.

Concerning the fine linen Rev 19:8; Eph 5:26, are you a KJV onlyist?



Recap:
-God was married to Israel before the Church was born (Isa 54:5).
-The Church is currently betrothed to Christ (2 Cor 11:2)
-John the Baptist identifies himself as the friend of the Groom, rather than the bride (John 3:29).
-The mystery of the two becoming one is what Paul speaks of in reference to Christ and the Church (Eph 5:31-32).
-The Church has a feminine connotation because of how αὐτὴν (auten) is conjugated (Eph 5:26).

John the Baptist was of the OT prophets and they are the ones who looked for a city. (Heb. 11: 16 & 32) They are not of Israel`s bride purpose.

(2 Cor. 11: 2) It is the Apostle Paul who betroth his disciples to the Lord and he wanted to present them pure. However Paul does not present us tp the Lord, for it is the Lord Himself who will present us to Himself. (Jude 24)

(Eph. 5) The Head of the Body by His Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul had written 4 chapters (as it were) concerning His Church, His Body, the called out ones from Israel and the nations. He has described the New Man, and how it is built and matured, BUT the Lord does NOT then say that it changes sex in ch. 5. The context of what the Lord has written is the NEW MAN, HIS OWN BODY. And that husbands should love their own BODY, their wives as He does HIS OWN BODY. (Eph. 5: 28, 30)

I wasn`t trying to be picky but showing that it is the `wife.` God `married` was master over Israel, they rebelled, He divorced them and then eventually He will `marry` join with them again. That is the context.

Do you know that many people call some romantic songs to the Lord, `Jesus my boyfriend` songs. How do you think a young man would feel when told, `Come to Jesus and be His Bride.` Really, think about what you are saying.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes some people of that time could have eventually come into the Body of Christ. However it would have to be AT and AFTER Pentecost, because that was when the Holy spirit was poured out to `set` the members in the Body of Christ. (Acts 2: 4, 1 Cor. 12: 18)

The body of Christ was formed when people first followed Christ. At Pentecost the body expanded greatly.

 

[ewq1938]

Do you know that many people call some romantic songs to the Lord, `Jesus my boyfriend` songs. How do you think a young man would feel when told, `Come to Jesus and be His Bride.` Really, think about what you are saying.

Doesn't really matter what he would think. It's just symbolism. Men are part of the bride of Christ.

 

[Marilyn]

The body of Christ was formed when people first followed Christ. At Pentecost the body expanded greatly.

Yes many followed the Lord however it was not till the Lord sent His Holy Spirit, (Pentecost) that they could be `set` by the Holy Spirit in the Body and be made like Christ. (1 Cor. 12: 18)

 

[Marilyn]

Doesn't really matter what he would think. It's just symbolism. Men are part of the bride of Christ.

Symbolism for what?

 

[ewq1938]

Yes many followed the Lord however it was not till the Lord sent His Holy Spirit, (Pentecost) that they could be `set` by the Holy Spirit in the Body and be made like Christ. (1 Cor. 12: 18)

The body of Christ existed long before Pentecost.

 

[ewq1938]

Symbolism for what?

A marriage. Men aren't actually going to marry another man (Christ) nor are they going to pretend to be women. It's just symbolism for how close and loving the relationship between believer and Messiah is. The bride is symbolic as well.

 

[Marilyn]

The body of Christ existed long before Pentecost.

Can you prove it?

 

[Marilyn]

A marriage. Men aren't actually going to marry another man (Christ) nor are they going to pretend to be women. It's just symbolism for how close and loving the relationship between believer and Messiah is. The bride is symbolic as well.

Actually we, the BODY of Christ are closer.

And the Bride purpose is for another reason.

 

[ewq1938]

Can you prove it?

I already did. Christians are the body of Christ and Christians existed before Pentecost.

 

[Absolutely]

Marilyn said:

The `wife` had to make herself ready through righteous acts, (Rev. 19: 7 & 8) We, the Body of Christ are righteous through Christ, not our righteous acts.

Diakonos answer;

I wasn't quoting the verse verbatim. But she actually is called the "bride" and the "wife" in Rev 21:9. So there's no need to be nitpicky to the degree you are expressing. I used the word "bride" because we're talking about the wedding. When people think of the word "bride", they think of a wedding dress, which is relevant to our conversation.

that says it all.
marilyn

 

[Absolutely]

Absolutely said:

ALL rapture verses are peacetime and normal life.

So simple.

DT's silly nothingburger answer";

LOL - Just like in the Days of Noah = Everyone loving one another and walking around with flowers in their hair.

So many flowers were uprooted in the Peaceful and Normal days of Noah that God became full of anger and wrath and then drowned all flesh on earth leaving behind just 8 Souls to repopulate the earth.

I couldn't imagine living at a better time......................

He can not defend his position because in his "doctrine" the world is a half destroyed war zone immediately before the rapture.

so what does he do?
Goes into some disingenuous mocking mode making a fool out of himself and getting "thumbs up" from others equally oblivious that they get owned by all rapture verse being peacetime and normal life.

Bible is a "doctrine killer"
that fact of all rapture verses being peacetime is NEVER going away.

 

[Marilyn]

I already did. Christians are the body of Christ and Christians existed before Pentecost.

Jesus hadn`t been crucified or risen or ascended to the Father so no Body or `life-giving spirit. ( 1 Cor. 15: 45)

 

[Marilyn]

Diakonos answer;


that says it all.
marilyn

Not sure what you are saying there. Can you explain please?

 

[Blade]

Caught up aka Rapture. It is written we should all know where 1st Thes. It was the first book/letter Paul wrote. I am NOT here to tell anyone what Gods word really says nor that my personal belief is the real truth. You should seek pray search this out for your self you find it. Simple to me.. Jesus told us He was going back to His Fathers house which has many rooms. Now its a really great guess on my part that Christ is right now in heaven at the right hand of the Father Yet He said that if He goes He will come back get us/take us/receive us unto Himself so where He is we will be. So just me thinking.. ok where is He? In heaven so where He is I will be. I could have it wrong lol.

To me Christ will some day PRAISE GOD come and set foot on the earth and every eye shall see Him. Yet I don't read in 1st Thes that when comes comes in the clouds every eye shall see Him. That part.. not there nor Christ sending His angels to gather all. Again its not there. He comes we see Him the dead rise first and will not go up with out us.. we are changed all go up together to meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever. When Christ told the 12 He was going but would come back again. They would understand this. Well go back and look into and OLD Jewish wedding. Christ is coming back in the clouds dead will rise we will go up all together. This will happen.. you and I don't get a say here. There is no PRE MID POST verse we all know this. We just take pick verses leave others out to fit our personal belief. Since I can not prove any of the 3 I am always ready watching now.

The Church.. there is this vine which has originally branches and grafted in branches. No one can tell what branch is which. He said to me "show me a branch that was not originally of the vine. I am the vine you are the branches". Thats who we are. Not two tress vines.. just one. Its not what where who we were born on this earth. That NEW MAN He made was not made here is not from here. As far as I know and believe and can be wrong.

The CAUGHT UP.. its never old its never beating a dead horse. We forget what we say and how it can effect the weak in the faith. Just keep watching be ready now. Yeah.. to always be watching .. to always be thinking about JESUS Christ and how your living.. just wrong huh haha

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus hadn`t been crucified or risen or ascended to the Father so no Body or `life-giving spirit. ( 1 Cor. 15: 45)

None of that affects the fact that the body of Christ began with the 12 disciples. That is also when the church and the bride began.

 

[ewq1938]

Now its a really great guess on my part that Christ is right now in heaven at the right hand of the Father Yet He said that if He goes He will come back get us/take us/receive us unto Himself so where He is we will be. So just me thinking.. ok where is He? In heaven so where He is I will be. I could have it wrong lol.

Read it more closely:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Jesus said, "I go to prepare a place for you." that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again". That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


So where is Christ after "I will come again and receive you unto myself"? Earth. He is no longer in heaven.


"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."


This is what Jesus said. This is what some think he said:


"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."


He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.

Also in the same chapter:

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Christ isn't returning to take anyone up to heaven to live with him and the Father but the opposite! The Father and Christ will end up coming here to make their abode on Earth with us! That's the opposite of the false pre-trib teaching!