Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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But I am consciousness about if those who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, do YOU believe Jesus was having a mental slip when He claimed He only Returns 1 more time, Immediately after Tribulation?
Do you think Jesus was suffering from Memory Loss about not having a Secret Coming?
I need to know, because, I need to rethink if God is skitzo or not based upon Him saying He returns once, but Pre-Tribbers claim He will actually come back twice?
Do you think Jesus was suffering from Memory Loss about not having a Secret Coming?
I need to know, because, I need to rethink if God is skitzo or not based upon Him saying He returns once, but Pre-Tribbers claim He will actually come back twice?
Pre-tribbers believe He only "RETURNS" one more time.
Pre-tribbers believe He "RETURNS" immediately after the Tribulation period (of 7 years' duration).
Pre-tribbers believe that His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19 (AFTER the Trib), is spoken of in the two "RETURN" passages in the Gospels:
--"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347; and its parallels, like in Matt8:11] - Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,[45-48] and its parallel in Matt24:42-51; and
--"RETURN" - Luke 19:12,15,17,19, when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... be thou also over 5 cities" and its parallel passage in Matthew 25:14-30 (and another, if I recall rightly)
A few things to notice about these passages ^ (not to mention all the parallels I've included here)... these passages are about His "RETURN to the earth"... and so His "RETURN" to the earth is as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom (not for the purpose of BEING WED--*that* has already taken place by this point in the chronology)... and at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER," aka "the age [singular] TO COME," etc) notice that there are "saints / believers" located on the earth
(see the 8 or so "BLESSED" passages like Daniel 12:12--"BLESSED is he that waiteth and COMETH TO the 1335 days" i.e. as still-living persons / saints existing on the earth at the END of the Tribulation period... these will ENTER the MK age in their natural/mortal bodies capable of bearing children / reproducing... the ONLY ppl who will have that capacity... and of whom Jesus says, "I AM the resurrection AND THE LIFE... [...after talking about the "though he may DIE" part, goes on to say...] AND he that LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26, where Martha was acknowledging what she rightly understood about "THE LAST DAY" [i.e. the earthly MK-age time period--"Day=1000yrs"];
...the Gospels showing only believers / saints / the righteous / the Sheep / those clothed in "garments of wedding" / the "elect" / the SAVED etc as being the ones who ENTER the MK age... but those later BORN to them are not "BORN automatically righteous," and it is THESE [born to them / grandchildren / etc] who will be the ONLY ones susceptible to "DEATH" in the MK age, when "DEATH" will be much more rare in the MK reserved only for the rebellious... and who the still-living ones of those at the END of the MK age are who Satan will go forth (put of his prison [of 1000 yrs]) to "DECEIVE" (as his aim)... where Scripture indicates of these that they are: "the number whom is as the sand of the sea"; I believe it is a mistake to say these are the offspring of ppl who ENTERED the MK age as UNbelievers / UNsaved persons [tho in mortal bodies, as they are]... especially when you read what the Gospels has to say about the point in time of His "RETURN" to the earth (I've listed some of the terms and phrases that this goes by... I see no instance of UNbelievers / the UNSAVED being who "ENTER" the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (in their mortal bodies, as they do)
Sorry for the length... maybe someone out there will be benefitted by something in this post, who knows...
Pre-tribbers believe He "RETURNS" immediately after the Tribulation period (of 7 years' duration).
Pre-tribbers believe that His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19 (AFTER the Trib), is spoken of in the two "RETURN" passages in the Gospels:
--"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347; and its parallels, like in Matt8:11] - Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,[45-48] and its parallel in Matt24:42-51; and
--"RETURN" - Luke 19:12,15,17,19, when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "likewise... be thou also over 5 cities" and its parallel passage in Matthew 25:14-30 (and another, if I recall rightly)
A few things to notice about these passages ^ (not to mention all the parallels I've included here)... these passages are about His "RETURN to the earth"... and so His "RETURN" to the earth is as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom (not for the purpose of BEING WED--*that* has already taken place by this point in the chronology)... and at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth (FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS," aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER," aka "the age [singular] TO COME," etc) notice that there are "saints / believers" located on the earth
(see the 8 or so "BLESSED" passages like Daniel 12:12--"BLESSED is he that waiteth and COMETH TO the 1335 days" i.e. as still-living persons / saints existing on the earth at the END of the Tribulation period... these will ENTER the MK age in their natural/mortal bodies capable of bearing children / reproducing... the ONLY ppl who will have that capacity... and of whom Jesus says, "I AM the resurrection AND THE LIFE... [...after talking about the "though he may DIE" part, goes on to say...] AND he that LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26, where Martha was acknowledging what she rightly understood about "THE LAST DAY" [i.e. the earthly MK-age time period--"Day=1000yrs"];
...the Gospels showing only believers / saints / the righteous / the Sheep / those clothed in "garments of wedding" / the "elect" / the SAVED etc as being the ones who ENTER the MK age... but those later BORN to them are not "BORN automatically righteous," and it is THESE [born to them / grandchildren / etc] who will be the ONLY ones susceptible to "DEATH" in the MK age, when "DEATH" will be much more rare in the MK reserved only for the rebellious... and who the still-living ones of those at the END of the MK age are who Satan will go forth (put of his prison [of 1000 yrs]) to "DECEIVE" (as his aim)... where Scripture indicates of these that they are: "the number whom is as the sand of the sea"; I believe it is a mistake to say these are the offspring of ppl who ENTERED the MK age as UNbelievers / UNsaved persons [tho in mortal bodies, as they are]... especially when you read what the Gospels has to say about the point in time of His "RETURN" to the earth (I've listed some of the terms and phrases that this goes by... I see no instance of UNbelievers / the UNSAVED being who "ENTER" the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (in their mortal bodies, as they do)
Sorry for the length... maybe someone out there will be benefitted by something in this post, who knows...
Matthew 24 explains from Christ, when He returns Immediately after Tribulation, He sends His Angels to gather the Elect from the Four Winds, which is Earth's North,West, South, East winds.
Most pre-tribbers think they will be removed before Tribulation. And the Sinners during the Tribulation that refuse the Mark will be Beheaded. So, who are the Remaining Elect that Christ's Angels gather after the end of Tribulation from the Four Winds of Earth?
Most pre-tribbers think they will be removed before Tribulation. And the Sinners during the Tribulation that refuse the Mark will be Beheaded. So, who are the Remaining Elect that Christ's Angels gather after the end of Tribulation from the Four Winds of Earth?
In scripture regarding the Great Tribulation there's two raptures. One is the two prophets right before the 7th trump sounds and then there is "the rapture" which is about bringing the living saints into the clouds. They survived the Great Tribulation.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Both of these are addressing the one and only rapture of the church and it is after the end of tribulation just as Paul said it was:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
There is no rapture of anyone before the Great Tribulation begins and there will be no valid scripture posted that shows that.
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Did you read the passages I provided in my post? Did you see what I said about Daniel 12:12 ("BLESSED")? [see again]<--there will be "STILL-LIVING saints" at the END of the Trib yrs... they ENTER the earthly MK age (in mortal bodies) as the "BLESSED" (in like 8-10 passages speaking of THIS "BLESSED" time-slot / circumstances);
Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13,[9;<--Rom11:27;<--Dan9:24-27'sPROPHECY regarding "thy [Daniel's] people"];
--those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised;
--who are the ones having been "SCATTERED" to the four winds / four corners of the earth [/ "SOWN...unto the earth"];
--"in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, 'ye are not My people; there shall THEY be called the children of the living God." Romans 9:26 [not v.25 about the Gentiles] / Hosea 1:10-11(<--"gathered together") / Hosea 2:23a [whereas v.23b is again about the Gentiles, like in Rom11:25, not v.26 which is about Israel]
...note they will be "gathered" into ONE PLACE upon the earth ("TO worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"), and they are said to be gathered "ONE BY ONE" (NOT "AS ONE" as WE will be, in "our Rapture"--the Rapture of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / the "ONE BODY" in ONE "SNATCH [G726 - harpazo]"-action... TO the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*"... in every way distinct from the other occurrence)
Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:12-13,[9;<--Rom11:27;<--Dan9:24-27'sPROPHECY regarding "thy [Daniel's] people"];
--those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised;
--who are the ones having been "SCATTERED" to the four winds / four corners of the earth [/ "SOWN...unto the earth"];
--"in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, 'ye are not My people; there shall THEY be called the children of the living God." Romans 9:26 [not v.25 about the Gentiles] / Hosea 1:10-11(<--"gathered together") / Hosea 2:23a [whereas v.23b is again about the Gentiles, like in Rom11:25, not v.26 which is about Israel]
...note they will be "gathered" into ONE PLACE upon the earth ("TO worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM"), and they are said to be gathered "ONE BY ONE" (NOT "AS ONE" as WE will be, in "our Rapture"--the Rapture of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / the "ONE BODY" in ONE "SNATCH [G726 - harpazo]"-action... TO the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*"... in every way distinct from the other occurrence)
Any Jew who believes Christ is their messiah is no different than any Gentile grafted into the Fold.
What you cannot show me, is where the Bride is different than the Elect, and why the Bride deserves to be removed from the Tribulation.
The Apostles, the First Church, the Church Fathers are also a part of the Bride, and they suffered both torture and murder. Why does our Version of the Bride get to escape? Jesus never said we escape. Who said we escape that outranks Christ?
What you cannot show me, is where the Bride is different than the Elect, and why the Bride deserves to be removed from the Tribulation.
The Apostles, the First Church, the Church Fathers are also a part of the Bride, and they suffered both torture and murder. Why does our Version of the Bride get to escape? Jesus never said we escape. Who said we escape that outranks Christ?
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Rev 14
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Your doctrine has the dead in christ raised AFTER the 144k are in heaven.
That dog wont hunt.
Your doctrine is poorly thought out
1 thes 4 has the dead raised BEFORE the living
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Your doctrine has the dead in christ raised AFTER the 144k are in heaven.
That dog wont hunt.
Your doctrine is poorly thought out
1 thes 4 has the dead raised BEFORE the living