The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Marilyn]

The Revelation of the Bride of Christ began in Genesis.

In fact, John the Baptist knew of Her, as foretold, and he identified Her to us = John ch3

John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of Him.’ The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom stands and listens for him, and is overjoyed to hear the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. He must increase; I must decrease.

Thus the `bride` revelation was known BEFORE ever there was a Body of Christ. It is Israel.

 

[Marilyn]

Are you aware of the fact that there are 2 gentiles in Jesus' lineage?

Rahab the harlot being one of them..

If i am not mistaken,that gentile prostitute was Boaz' mother.

Yes, glad you brought that up. And as I said Gentile proselytes became of the nation of Israel.

 

[Marilyn]

No, I really don't think those who will be Raptured, have a real sense of it's coming. We may know it is growing close but certainly not the exact day or time.

Ephesians 4:11-14, are teaching the following:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Defines the various "offices" of the assembly, for the purpose of Corporate Worship and Edification. Which is defined in Verse 12.

Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

Here we have the purpose of these offices explained. The "building up of the body of Christ", is in reference to Doctrinal knowledge and not to numbers of believers.

Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

The explanation continues in the above verse. The edification of the Saints, in Doctrine, brings about the unity of the Faith. No unity, in the assembly, can occur, apart from every member being likeminded, in regards to Doctrine. As our knowledge of Doctrine grows, we become "mature" in our knowledge. Each growing in stature, to be conformed more and more unto a likeness of Jesus Christ.

Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

The benefit of this "mature" Doctrinal knowledge is explained by verse 14. So that we will not be tossed TO and FRO by the Doctrines of man's imagination.

While this section of Scripture shows the importance of "sound" Doctrine, it does not lead one to understand the date and time of the Rapture. Just that there will be a Rapture, by virtue of proper doctrinal understanding of Scripture.

I agree. However there is a point here. The word `till,` refers to the ministry of those 5 ministry gifts, when they shall cease doing the equipping etc. for the Body of Christ would then be mature (of doctrine) and caught away to its eternal setting in glory.

 

[DavidTree]

Thus the `bride` revelation was known BEFORE ever there was a Body of Christ. It is Israel.

We covered this already = the TRUE Israel of God is that which is Born of the Spirit of God.

This is what the LORD says to the Israel of the flesh:

The Jews said to Jesus: We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!
Which of you can prove Me guilty of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
John ch8

 

[awelight]

No, I really don't think those who will be Raptured, have a real sense of it's coming. We may know it is growing close but certainly not the exact day or time.

Ephesians 4:11-14, are teaching the following:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Defines the various "offices" of the assembly, for the purpose of Corporate Worship and Edification. Which is defined in Verse 12.

Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

Here we have the purpose of these offices explained. The "building up of the body of Christ", is in reference to Doctrinal knowledge and not to numbers of believers.

Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

The explanation continues in the above verse. The edification of the Saints, in Doctrine, brings about the unity of the Faith. No unity, in the assembly, can occur, apart from every member being likeminded, in regards to Doctrine. As our knowledge of Doctrine grows, we become "mature" in our knowledge. Each growing in stature, to be conformed more and more unto a likeness of Jesus Christ.

Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

The benefit of this "mature" Doctrinal knowledge is explained by verse 14. So that we will not be tossed TO and FRO by the Doctrines of man's imagination.

While this section of Scripture shows the importance of "sound" Doctrine, it does not lead one to understand the date and time of the Rapture. Just that there will be a Rapture, by virtue of proper doctrinal understanding of Scripture.

Additionally, I would like to add:

Many problems arise because of the differences in Eschatological thinking. The greatest of these, I believe, deal with the improper separation of the two purposes God has for Israel and the Assembly. Persons who disagree, that there are two distinct purposes here, usually do this on the basis, that it divides the "body of Christ". It does not.

Salvation, is all part of God's plan. He has executed it in several different ways but always by the same means. Example, there were those saved without Law, those saved under Law, those saved in the church age and those who will be saved, prior to the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom. Different ages or dispensations or economies, whichever is your favorite term. All those who are saved and will be saved, will be brought together as one Assembly, in Jesus Christ as it's head, at the end of the Millennial reign. For all things were made by Him and through Him and for Him.

However, there are distinctions, in the mean time, that must be observed. The wife of God, is not the same as the Bride of the Bridegroom. Israel, is not the church or vice versa. The Kingdom, is invisible right now, seen in operation within the Church but will be physical in the Millennial age. Christ is the invisible Head over the Church, the Great High-Priest but will be the visible King of kings over the physical Millennial Kingdom. I could go on but hopefully you see my point.

Therefore, the Church, will be kept from the hour of trial, that is coming upon the whole world. It will be Raptured as the Tribulation begins because the Lord will be revisiting Israel during the Tribulation. When the Tribulation begins and the Church has been Raptured, it will be as if the Church age has been removed from the timeline and the Tribulation is slammed up against the Nation of Israel and the world, to continue the Old Testament prophecies, right where they left off, before the first advent of Jesus Christ. Thus, God will fulfill all of the promises given to Israel.

John the Baptist or better, John the Baptizer, stood with one foot in the Old Testament economy and the other in the New, proclaiming the the Lamb of God in the New Testament. He was used by God to Transition from one economy to the other.

Peter and the other ten, (Excluding God's chosen traitor), were the first stones laid upon the foundation, of the church Christ was building. Jesus Christ, of course, being the Chief-Corner Stone. Thus, they were hearers, of both things, things intended for the Jews and Israel and things intended for the church. Having been raised in Judaism, it was difficult for them to except Paul's Ministry to the Gentiles. It was also difficult for them to get out from under the baggage of their religious upbringing. This is why, Peter and Paul did not always see eye to eye but the Holy Spirit brought about unity, in the end.

I'm saying a lot of complexed things here, gleamed from all the Scriptures, in a very short discourse. I hope I did not lose you.

 

[Marilyn]

We covered this already = the TRUE Israel of God is that which is Born of the Spirit of God.

This is what the LORD says to the Israel of the flesh:

The Jews said to Jesus: We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me.
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!
Which of you can prove Me guilty of sin? If I speak the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever belongs to God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
John ch8

Are you saying that the Body of Christ is Israel?

 

[DavidTree]

Are you saying that the Body of Christ is Israel?

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

 

[Marilyn]

Additionally, I would like to add:

Many problems arise because of the differences in Eschatological thinking. The greatest of these, I believe, deal with the improper separation of the two purposes God has for Israel and the Assembly. Persons who disagree, that there are two distinct purposes here, usually do this on the basis, that it divides the "body of Christ". It does not.

Salvation, is all part of God's plan. He has executed it in several different ways but always by the same means. Example, there were those saved without Law, those saved under Law, those saved in the church age and those who will be saved, prior to the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom. Different ages or dispensations or economies, whichever is your favorite term. All those who are saved and will be saved, will be brought together as one Assembly, in Jesus Christ as it's head, at the end of the Millennial reign. For all things were made by Him and through Him and for Him.

However, there are distinctions, in the mean time, that must be observed. The wife of God, is not the same as the Bride of the Bridegroom. Israel, is not the church or vice versa. The Kingdom, is invisible right now, seen in operation within the Church but will be physical in the Millennial age. Christ is the invisible Head over the Church, the Great High-Priest but will be the visible King of kings over the physical Millennial Kingdom. I could go on but hopefully you see my point.

Therefore, the Church, will be kept from the hour of trial, that is coming upon the whole world. It will be Raptured as the Tribulation begins because the Lord will be revisiting Israel during the Tribulation. When the Tribulation begins and the Church has been Raptured, it will be as if the Church age has been removed from the timeline and the Tribulation is slammed up against the Nation of Israel and the world, to continue the Old Testament prophecies, right where they left off, before the first advent of Jesus Christ. Thus, God will fulfill all of the promises given to Israel.

John the Baptist or better, John the Baptizer, stood with one foot in the Old Testament economy and the other in the New, proclaiming the the Lamb of God in the New Testament. He was used by God to Transition from one economy to the other.

Peter and the other ten, (Excluding God's chosen traitor), were the first stones laid upon the foundation, of the church Christ was building. Jesus Christ, of course, being the Chief-Corner Stone. Thus, they were hearers, of both things, things intended for the Jews and Israel and things intended for the church. Having been raised in Judaism, it was difficult for them to except Paul's Ministry to the Gentiles. It was also difficult for them to get out from under the baggage of their religious upbringing. This is why, Peter and Paul did not always see eye to eye but the Holy Spirit brought about unity, in the end.

I'm saying a lot of complexed things here, gleamed from all the Scriptures, in a very short discourse. I hope I did not lose you.

I understand what you are saying.

I have been taught this way. All salvation is of the Lord however there are different inheritances for different groups. The Lord made the different realms in God`s great kingdom. There has been rebellion in each and thus God is dealing with those and will set His rulership in each realm under Christ who will rule `above all.`

Any thoughts there?

 

[Marilyn]

I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Yes not all Israel are the true Israel, but of the promise, the Holy Spirit. And there have been and will be those of the seed of Abraham who will be the true Israel.

 

[DavidTree]

Yes not all Israel are the true Israel, but of the promise, the Holy Spirit. And there have been and will be those of the seed of Abraham who will be the true Israel.

AMEN - God has always reserved a remnant of Jews to remain part of the True Israel of God.

For future reference i will/may abbreviate as IOG = Israel of God.

 

[awelight]

Hi awelight,

Yes we know that Jesus said that He would build His `ekklesia,` called out ones. And Peter only knew that Israel was the `ekklesia,` the called out one. Jesus did not go on to explain further what He meant. Only later to Paul did the Lord reveal who the ekklesia was that He was building - His Body.

Peter knew the OT prophets that told of Israel being the ruler over the nations. `The God of heaven will set up a kingdom (rulership) ...` (Dan. 2: 44) Kingdom means rulership. God`s kingdom is over all, He made it, He never gave it away, He is just putting down rebellious rulership in every realm.

Glad we can agree that the restoration of the kingdom/rulership is to Israel over the nations.

Actually, the ekklesia was already started, when Jesus told Peter about it, in Matthew 16:18. How do I know this? Because, if we look at the Greek word, translated: "I will build" - it is a unique verb form. The Greek word is: οἰκοδομήσω (of οἰκοδομέω - oy-kod-om-eh'-o, which means to: Build, construct or edify). This particular verb is a: Progressive. Future. Active. Indicative. Which means, that this building is already started and is progressing into the future. Therefore, it should have been translated "I am building" not: "I shall build".

So Peter and the others were already in the ekklesia which Christ was building. However, it is true, that Jesus had not told them, about the plans for the Gentiles, within His Redemptive Work but it was hinted at, in John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

Not of this "Fold", implies a different ethnic group. Christ must bring them also. They will hear the voice of the Shepherd and will be made one flock. (Gal 3:28).

 

[Marilyn]

Actually, the ekklesia was already started, when Jesus told Peter about it, in Matthew 16:18. How do I know this? Because, if we look at the Greek word, translated: "I will build" - it is a unique verb form. The Greek word is: οἰκοδομήσω (of οἰκοδομέω - oy-kod-om-eh'-o, which means to: Build, construct or edify). This particular verb is a: Progressive. Future. Active. Indicative. Which means, that this building is already started and is progressing into the future. Therefore, it should have been translated "I am building" not: "I shall build".

So Peter and the others were already in the ekklesia which Christ was building. However, it is true, that Jesus had not told them, about the plans for the Gentiles, within His Redemptive Work but it was hinted at, in John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

Not of this "Fold", implies a different ethnic group. Christ must bring them also. They will hear the voice of the Shepherd and will be made one flock. (Gal 3:28).

However Jesus had NOT ascended to the Father nor given His Holy spirit who makes a believer like unto Christ. Also Christ had NOT given of His 5 fold ministries till He ascended. Thus I believe the Body of Christ did not begin till the Day of Pentecost.

Also the Father did not make Jesus Head of His Body till he was seated with Him in glory.

So as to `inheritances` do you see all believers through out history will be in the same part of God`s kingdom?
Or do you see that different groups have different responsibilities in different realms?

 

[EarlDumarest]

The False teaching ...INCLUDES the 'rapture'...

 

[ewq1938]

The church began with Jews/Israel (the 12 disciples). The church has always been true Israel in Christ from it's beginning and continues to be that way today but with the inclusion of gentiles.

It is the same with the concept of the bride of Christ and the body of Christ. The bride and body started with Jews/Israel (the 12 disciples). Gentiles that accept Christ are grafted into these concepts and become part of the Church, part of the bride, part of the body and part of the great olive tree which has many of the natural Jewish branches since the ministry of Christ and beyond.


Israel is the Church. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that Church.
Israel is the body of Christ. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that body.
Israel is the Bride of Christ. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that Bride.

Anyone who denies Christ, whether Gentile or Jew, are NOT part of the church, or body or bride or olive tree.

 

[ewq1938]

The False teaching ...INCLUDES the 'rapture'...

The rapture is true. It is post-trib. The pre-trib rapture is the false one.

 

[Marilyn]

The church began with Jews/Israel (the 12 disciples). The church has always been true Israel in Christ from it's beginning and continues to be that way today but with the inclusion of gentiles.

It is the same with the concept of the bride of Christ and the body of Christ. The bride and body started with Jews/Israel (the 12 disciples). Gentiles that accept Christ are grafted into these concepts and become part of the Church, part of the bride, part of the body and part of the great olive tree which has many of the natural Jewish branches since the ministry of Christ and beyond.


Israel is the Church. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that Church.
Israel is the body of Christ. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that body.
Israel is the Bride of Christ. Gentiles that believe in Christ join that Bride.

Anyone who denies Christ, whether Gentile or Jew, are NOT part of the church, or body or bride or olive tree.

So we are the Queen of heaven, Queen priests?
So the New Man is really the New Woman?
So Jesus will marry millions of people?
And there is no marrying in heaven.
And as a man are you fine to now be told you are a woman?
And there we, (Christians) telling those men or women who want a sex change that they are wrong. So it`s in God`s word is it, a sex change? Men now becoming female? Horrendeous!

So where does it say Israel is the Body of Christ. Easy to say such nonsense but where is the proof?

 

[ewq1938]

So where does it say Israel is the Body of Christ. Easy to say such nonsense but where is the proof?

Basically it's in the entire NT. You don't know that Christians are the body of Christ? You don't know Jews were the first Christians? That makes them the body of Christ. It started with them and later gentiles were able to join.

The only "nonsense" is anything that contradicts those facts.

 

[Marilyn]

Basically it's in the entire NT. You don't know that Christians are the body of Christ? You don't know Jews were the first Christians? That makes them the body of Christ. It started with them and later gentiles were able to join.

The only "nonsense" is anything that contradicts those facts.

Of course Jews were the first Christians in the Body of Christ, but NOT before Christ ascended to the Father and sent His Holy Spirit to make us like Himself. (Eph. 1: 20 - 23)

 

[ewq1938]

Of course Jews were the first Christians in the Body of Christ, but NOT before Christ ascended to the Father and sent His Holy Spirit to make us like Himself. (Eph. 1: 20 - 23)

The body of Christ started when people first accepted him as Messiah. We know that in hindsight even if they did not know of it at the time.

Mat_16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

This pre-dates Eph. 1: 20 - 23 by many years. That is the body of Christ following Christ, even with their own spiritual crosses!

 

[DavidTree]

Additionally, I would like to add:

Many problems arise because of the differences in Eschatological thinking. The greatest of these, I believe, deal with the improper separation of the two purposes God has for Israel and the Assembly. Persons who disagree, that there are two distinct purposes here, usually do this on the basis, that it divides the "body of Christ". It does not.

Salvation, is all part of God's plan. He has executed it in several different ways but always by the same means. Example, there were those saved without Law, those saved under Law, those saved in the church age and those who will be saved, prior to the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom. Different ages or dispensations or economies, whichever is your favorite term. All those who are saved and will be saved, will be brought together as one Assembly, in Jesus Christ as it's head, at the end of the Millennial reign. For all things were made by Him and through Him and for Him.

However, there are distinctions, in the mean time, that must be observed. The wife of God, is not the same as the Bride of the Bridegroom. Israel, is not the church or vice versa. The Kingdom, is invisible right now, seen in operation within the Church but will be physical in the Millennial age. Christ is the invisible Head over the Church, the Great High-Priest but will be the visible King of kings over the physical Millennial Kingdom. I could go on but hopefully you see my point.

Therefore, the Church, will be kept from the hour of trial, that is coming upon the whole world. It will be Raptured as the Tribulation begins because the Lord will be revisiting Israel during the Tribulation. When the Tribulation begins and the Church has been Raptured, it will be as if the Church age has been removed from the timeline and the Tribulation is slammed up against the Nation of Israel and the world, to continue the Old Testament prophecies, right where they left off, before the first advent of Jesus Christ. Thus, God will fulfill all of the promises given to Israel.

John the Baptist or better, John the Baptizer, stood with one foot in the Old Testament economy and the other in the New, proclaiming the the Lamb of God in the New Testament. He was used by God to Transition from one economy to the other.

Peter and the other ten, (Excluding God's chosen traitor), were the first stones laid upon the foundation, of the church Christ was building. Jesus Christ, of course, being the Chief-Corner Stone. Thus, they were hearers, of both things, things intended for the Jews and Israel and things intended for the church. Having been raised in Judaism, it was difficult for them to except Paul's Ministry to the Gentiles. It was also difficult for them to get out from under the baggage of their religious upbringing. This is why, Peter and Paul did not always see eye to eye but the Holy Spirit brought about unity, in the end.

I'm saying a lot of complexed things here, gleamed from all the Scriptures, in a very short discourse. I hope I did not lose you.

You are splitting up and dividing the Body of Christ.

There only was one Gospel, starting in Genesis - no one is saved apart from it.

There is only One Body with No distinction between Jew and Gentile.

There is no separation of that Body via false teaching such as a pre-trib rapture that is non-existent in Scripture.

You said: "Therefore, the Church, will be kept from the hour of trial, that is coming upon the whole world. It will be Raptured as the Tribulation begins because the Lord will be revisiting Israel during the Tribulation. When the Tribulation begins and the Church has been Raptured,"

This is sin by adding to and taking away from God's word.