This thread is not about once saved always saved. It's about not everyone who believes will be saved. But any doctrine is a good doctrine to talk about.
NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES WILL BE SAVED
- Thread starter EddieRamos
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This thread is not about once saved always saved. It's about not everyone who believes will be saved. But any doctrine is a good doctrine to talk about.
If I misquoted you or misunderstood what you said, then please show me and explain how I did so, and I will delete the comment myself as well as apologize for doing so. But if I understood your comments correctly (and I believe I did), then you being offended is not against me, but against what the scriptures say. But for clarity, here is exactly what you stated:
"but I’d say what we believe is what matters of it’s the actual gospel of the kingdom belief is what brings all the repentance and obedience later from faith
belief is definately salvstion but believing false doctrines isn’t. We have to believe Jesus and his word his gospel brings everything else but many false ideas exist and many are led astray from truth by believing things other than the gospel we have to believe the things jesus taught and persevere in them
it’s not a matter of whether belief saves us it’s about what and who we believe believing Jesus brings true worship repentance, obedience and righteousness indeed and truth all because we accept and believe the truth
I understand I think what your saying a lot of people say I believe but they reject his teachings meant for belief and repentance and life
If someone believes in doctrine not supported...i.e.....baptism not required.....they are not born again and God will....spew them out of His mouth. "
And here is my reply once again from post #31.
"Thank you for your reply. What we believe (doctrine) has no bearing on our regeneration from being wicked to becoming righteous. What we believe is evidence of whether or not we have truly been born again, or if we are like Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptized, but to no avail. Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice and the follow me. This means that upon regeneration (our new heart), that God's sheep have a desire for the truth and when they hear the truth being spoken, by anyone, that they will be led in that direction because they recognize the voice of the Truth.
John 10:27–28 (KJV 1900)
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Rejection of God's true doctrines is rejection of God himself, and no person who has truly been born again will do that. Only those who trust in a work they have done to save them (like believe, repent, water baptism, ect) will reject God's truths. "
Again, if I replied based on a misunderstanding of what you said, then I would like for you to clarify for me and I will correct my response without hesitation and apologize without any problem. Otherwise, what I said is true and I can further expound on what I already said if you would like to see it from the scriptures.
I hope this helps.
Simon had believed that here was a golden opportunity to enhance his sorcery (Acts 8).
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Acording to what the scriptures say, Simon did as the other people did, he believed and was baptized. Not only that, but he did so even before he saw that the Holy Spirit was given by the laying of the apostle's hands, so how could that have been his motive all along? If we begin reading what took place in this city (Samaria), what we see is this:
Acts 8:5–6 (KJV 1900)
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
We are given no reason in the scriptures to conclude that these people were not truly saved. As a matter of fact, these same people, which were once bewitched by Simon, were the ones who believed and were baptized.
Acts 8:11–12 (KJV 1900)
And to him they (the people of Samaria) had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed (pisteuō) Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
We don't read anywhere that Simon saw a golden opportunity for himself, but instead, we read that he also believed (pisteuō) and was baptized. In other words, Simon did the exact same thing as the others. Not only that, but we also read that he (like the others who believed) were beholding at the miracles done. This too they had in common.
Acts 8:13 (KJV 1900)
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
But to Simon, believing was of no avail. In this context, we are not given any reasoning for this, but in the context of the Bible, we know it was because Simon was not an elect (another good topic for another time). But, like I said, nowhere do we get any biblical reasoning for claiming that Simon saw a "golden opportunity" when he decided, of his own will, to believe. We know this because he didn't see that work of that power until sometime after he believed.
Now, since Simon was never saved to begin with, then we can understand why he would have offered them money for this power. But that doesn't negate the action that the scriptures tell us he took, which is the focus of this thread. It's the same action that so many people have also taken, but, like Simon and the Jews of John 8, it did not save them.
Simon was so deep in his earthly world he could not understand God's kingdom. He focused on the work he did in the world, magic tricks to make money. What Simon saw in Christ was magic tricks of healing that Simon could receive by joining the church and buying the magic.
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SophieT
Guest
well I didn't post your entire op because of the length of it, but I just wanted to direct a response to this portion of it anyway
in your bio, when asked if you are a Christian, you have responded with this: That was in God's hands and in HIs timing, not mine.
are you a true believer then or just examining others to see if they are?
your response as to whether or not you are actually saved, or a Christian, sounds more than a little fatalistic
if you propose a saved person should act like it, according to scripture, then how can you begin that life without seeming to know when you were saved or even if you are saved?
I haven't read the thread yet and will probably skim over some of the posts, but your response in the bio section needs further explanation
And this is just another attack on the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. If someone who reads your OP is not saved, they will wonder if they can ever be saved. What is necessary is to state that there are many false professions of faith, but those who genuinely and sincerely believe are most definitely saved.
Well Peter already showed you what was in Simon's heart, but you are simply trying to muddy the waters and pretend that Simon believed sincerely. Even being baptized can mean nothing.
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SophieT
Guest
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SophieT
Guest
you cannot delete a comment after 5 minutes
some people cannot stand being disagreed with and the forum does not sustain perfection
this is the BDF, the Bible discussion forum....you did not say anything that is report worthy so don't let peldom or anyone else threaten you. he is not a moderator
Hello Sophie and thanks for your question. I can start with further explaining my bio which I was asked to answer when I first created an account here. It said, "When did you become saved?" To which I replied as you pointed out, "That was in God's hands and in HIs timing, not mine". So, to begin with, I realized that whoever created the account sign up form, must either believe in free will unto salvation (which allows people to know the very time of day in which they "accepted" Christ, or must have felt like they needed to make that a necessary provision for others to answer. I don't know, but I went ahead and answered it anyway. I don't believe I had to, but anytime there is an opportunity to share the true gospel, I should take it. Who knows who will read it and ask me about it. And, so here we are.
God never saved by the will of man. The problem is that so many have been taught the exact opposite, that they have never had the need to dig deeper. The Bible has so many things to say about so many things, that I can pick a few verses that seem to say exactly what I want it to say, because it agrees with what I think is true. This is the mentality of so many people who preach/teach the Bible, and it's wrong. God wrote the Bible in a way that forces us to examine everything the Bible has to say regarding that subject before we can arrive at a whole cohesive truth. So, when someone says to me that I accepted Christ on such and such a day, I immediately know that they are trusting in work they have done to become saved, which in effect, didn't save them at all.
Only when we are willing to humble ourselves before God and examine all the scriptures regarding how someone becomes saved and find agreement between all those scriptures, then we can be certain that we have arrived at a true doctrine. So, I'm going to go over some scriptures with you to show you what I mean and see how these scriptures agree with the free will doctrine that teaches anyone could have become saved whenever they wanted.
#1: God is the one who has predestinated a people for himself to become sons of God, he calls them the elect. And how were these people predestinated, by what merit? Simply by the good pleasure of God's will.
Ephesians 1:3–5 (KJV 1900)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
#2: Some will say that our predestination was based on God looking down and knowing who was going to choose him and who was going to reject him. But God covers this base also.
Psalm 53:2–3 (KJV 1900)
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; There is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So now we can understand that the foreknowledge of God, as spoken in 1 Peter 1:2, had nothing to with what God saw as he looked upon mankind, but it had to do with God intimately knowing, before he created the world, whom he would save and so he placed their sins upon the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:2 (KJV 1900)
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
#3: God predestined, God called, God justified and God glorified everyone he chose to save. Every elect. God has done all the work of salvation from beginning to end.
Romans 8:29–33 (KJV 1900)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
#4: And this is how difficult it is to know if we are truly saved.
John 3:6–8 (KJV 1900)
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO (IN LIKE MANNER) is every one that is born of the Spirit.
When we search out all the scriptures concerning our assurance of salvation (which we can have), the Bible reveal to us that it is not something we can put a date on, it is a process before we even know what God has already done in our life. This is why we were to wait upon God for his salvation.
Lamentations 3:24–26 (KJV 1900)
The Lord is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
25 The Lord is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the Lord.
Psalm 35:3 (KJV 1900)
Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: Say unto my soul, I am thy salvation.
The passages above show us that being able to be sure of our salvation is not something that occurs at the drop of a hat, but rather it is something we had to patiently wait on God to confirm for us through his word. This is why salvation is so intimate a thing between God and the one he has saved. This is also why we are told to examine ourselves to make sure we are truly saved. Now, the churches don't teach this because once you made the choice to believe, it was set in stone and you never had to question your salvation ever again. But what does the Bible say?
2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV 1900)
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates (outcasts)?
Notice this wasn't something the pastor did for us, which they often assured their members that they were saved. But this is something that each one of us does for ourselves.
How one became saved is a very good topic of discussion and there are tons of passages that deal with this very issue. But, free will unto salvation is no where near the true gospel of God's salvation. This gospel has so many faults within it that they have had to come up with many other non biblical doctrines to fill in their doctrinal gaps. Here are a few more for you to consider and see how they agree (because agreement is the key) with the doctrine of free will.
John 1:12 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (This is the free will doctrine position, but it's incomplete. Here is the rest of the verse).
John 1:13 (KJV 1900)
Which were born (meaning, born again), not of blood (not of bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh (not born again by the will of our flesh) nor of the will of man (not born again by man's own will), but of God (but we are born again by the will of God).
James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
So, I hope I answered your request to further explain my profile answer. If you have any more questions, please feel free to continue the dialogue. For the record, I am sure that God has saved me, but I have no idea at what moment that took place.
The attacks revolving around faith is in the definition of faith. Some say faith never includes faith in what Jesus says, faith only pertains to his ability to save us from our sins.
The results of this believe is to believe you have no need to live for Christ, that allowing Christ within is not called for because you can have sin within and of course Christ within does not allow sin--they ignore that Christ tells us to repent of sin. It is a glaring difference that is taking all the power of the church away.
We are going to live eternally is a completely different type of living and how we live in this world will determine if we are nothing in that world or great. We are given training on being great in the eternal life we have after this temporary one.
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SophieT
Guest
whoa Eddie...I do not read such long posts.....not very often anyway, but I will address some of it in order to clairfy my position and thanks for getting back to me
sorry, but the only true gospel is the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and not whether or not we believe we are pre saved or actually did choose and yet I remember when I accepted Christ and I remember it well. I was 5. so we do not agree on being chosen for salvation while others are chosen to burn
I also disagree with painting with such a broad brush regarding what others think or how they proceed following Christ. as per my Bible verse in my posts, I believe that God is the One who keeps us and not our own efforts although we should make our best efforts to walk after the Holy Spirit as God leads us
I disagree that people who believe they accepted Christ, rather than had no choice in the matter, believe they have worked to be saved.
In fact, and not meaning to offend you, I find that nonsense. People I know who believe as do I, do not for one minute believe their salvation is any work save that of Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins
I have agreement with Christ in that I am fully saved and acceptable to God my Father because the faith I have in Christ is pleasing to God and salvation is about faith not works
no you are not going to go over scriptures with me as I know what you believe and disagree you have presented a factual account of what those who disagree with your interpretation believe
thanks again for answering
sorry, but the only true gospel is the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and not whether or not we believe we are pre saved or actually did choose and yet I remember when I accepted Christ and I remember it well. I was 5. so we do not agree on being chosen for salvation while others are chosen to burn
I also disagree with painting with such a broad brush regarding what others think or how they proceed following Christ. as per my Bible verse in my posts, I believe that God is the One who keeps us and not our own efforts although we should make our best efforts to walk after the Holy Spirit as God leads us
I disagree that people who believe they accepted Christ, rather than had no choice in the matter, believe they have worked to be saved.
In fact, and not meaning to offend you, I find that nonsense. People I know who believe as do I, do not for one minute believe their salvation is any work save that of Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins
I have agreement with Christ in that I am fully saved and acceptable to God my Father because the faith I have in Christ is pleasing to God and salvation is about faith not works
no you are not going to go over scriptures with me as I know what you believe and disagree you have presented a factual account of what those who disagree with your interpretation believe
thanks again for answering
If the doctrine of justification by grace through faith is referring to man's faith, then yes, the Bible wholeheartedly disagrees. But if the faith is the faith of Jesus Christ, then the Bible wholeheartedly agrees. Isn't genuine faith a fruit of the Spirit? To bear the fruit of the Spirit, one must already have the Spirit of God. In other words, the fruit of the Spirit comes after the person has been given the spirit of God, not before.
Also, Paul didn't tell the centurion guard that he had to genuinely and sincerely believe in order to become saved. And, once again, that was the whole point of my opening post. To demonstrate that there is much more to believing unto salvation than what some select verses may seem to teach. We have to harmonize the whole of the scriptures before we can see the whole picture clearly. And the key to believing, the way that God requires it, is with a perfect heart. A heart that God must first give us before we can believe, and before we can genuinely repent, and before we can obey any other commandment given to us in the scriptures.
God teaches us this in the account of Lazarus' death and resurrection which a clear picture of salvation.
John 11:43–44 (KJV 1900)
And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.
Lazarus, being physically dead, typified someone who was dead in his sins. And Christ was going to give him life, which typified eternal life (salvation). Now, while Lazarus was lying there, dead and stinking, what could he do in order to initiate the resurrection of his life? Absolutely nothing. God gave him a commandment to come forth, but what had to happen before Lazarus could obey that commandment? He had to be made alive.
Salvation is the same way. We are dead in our sins and (like Lazarus) we were incapable of doing anything to be saved. We couldn't obey any of God's commands the way he requires it, until after he had given us life, eternal life. Now, Lazarus could obey just as anyone who became saved could obey God's commandments in a way that pleased God, with a pure heart.
This is what Phillip meant by what he said to the eunuch.
Acts 8:37 (KJV 1900)
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
If thou believest with a whole heart. This is the heart which God gave each one of his elect upon salvation, causing them to properly believe and keep the rest of God's commandments. I spoke more about this in post #14.
Few people believe wholly in Christ. The gospels are filled with Christ. Christ explained murder, but who believes his explanation. Christ explained prayed asking for God's will on earth but who truly wants that? The church's belief in Christ is very limited. Christ taught to repent of sin, but who wants to give up all sin? We just say we can't do that so we won't try and repentance gets tossed out.
I agree that the understanding of what "faith" is, is very misunderstood. Christ is the very essence of faith as he is called "faithful and true". The word "faithful" and the word "faith" are just different parts of speech of the same word, the same way that Christ is both "True" and the "Truth". All these names help us to understand more about who and what Christ is.
The Bible defines "faith" as a work and thus it could never save anyone. Genuine faith isn't possessed by the wicked, which is what we all were before salvation. How then can a wicked person with a wicked heart exercise genuine faith? It's not possible, but when we understand that faith is a fruit, or a result, of already having the Spirit of God within us, meaning a result of already having been saved, then we can understand that true faith, from a perfect heart, is given to us by God after he has saved us. This is the faith which we exercise to believe, but not to become saved, as God has already done that work, but because we have been saved and can bear the fruit of faith.
Galatians 5:22 (KJV 1900)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
https://christianchat.com/blogs/salvation-the-living-meaning.203134/#post-4732283
The entire blog thread in the above link is self explanatory. I hope it helps.
The entire blog thread in the above link is self explanatory. I hope it helps.
Correct, few people believe wholly in Christ. Christ showed us this truth by having many disciples leave from following Jesus when the truth was unbearable. But a few men stayed. why did they stay? Because they were chosen to be saved, except 1 who was chosen for another task (Judas).
John 6:66–71 (KJV 1900)
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
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SophieT
Guest
oh come on now
are you trying to teach that the person must have the Holy Spirit given to them before they believe? (straight up Calvinism)
where does the Bible say any unsaved person has the Holy Spirit dwelling within?
faith is not a work.....without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God
I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love. Ephesians 3 16-17
For we live by faith, not by sight. II Corinthians 5:7
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6
For everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. I John 5:4
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.” Romans 1:17
and many many more verses of similar intent
Salvation is by GRACE, not work as we respond in faith. Faith is believing God, what He says and what He has done. This is not work, this is a RESPONSE