Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
- Thread starter Phoneman-777
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I see reading comprehension is not your strong suit 
If a soul can be saved from death, then it's possible for it so suffer death, else it wouldn't need saving!
If a soul can be saved from death, then it's possible for it so suffer death, else it wouldn't need saving!
Just as the Lord Jesus Christ says: Luke 16
So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried.
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
There you go!
Scripture SHOWS that there are souls in heaven, talking no less! Jesus gave an account of 2 men who died and went to Sheol. One to Abraham's bosom and one to Torments. And the guy in Torments talked with Abraham. How is that sleep?
Scripture SHOWS that there are souls in heaven, talking no less! Jesus gave an account of 2 men who died and went to Sheol. One to Abraham's bosom and one to Torments. And the guy in Torments talked with Abraham. How is that sleep?
Then, it's should be a very small step for you or anyone to accept that since a Soul exists only as a whole comprised of the components "Breath" and "Body", then at the dissolution of it of these, the Soul must cease to be. So, why does God refer to the first death as "sleep"? Because all must come forth to judgment, with the wicked finally dying a permanent, eternal, everlasting death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.
And, how does that rebuke what I say? I say death causes the living soul to cease to be as Genesis 2:7 KJV implicitly teaches. If we'd only consider that God only refers to the First Death as "sleep" because He knows soon all who are in the grave sleeping will come forth in resurrection to a Second Life where the wicked will die the Second Death which is permanent, eternal death from which there will be no resurrection - they will for eternity cease to exist.
-
1
- Show all
I know very well you werent joking - you meant it as a dig.” You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.”
and how could you stop interacting with me since I dropped off the last forum you were on weeks ago— that makes no sense.
Standing on a doctrinal position is NOT trolling. You put me down and make up lies to present yourself in a good light. But I see thru your unkindness, your arrogance, and your duplicity. If you truly didnt care, you would’ve dropped the matter, but you had to have the last word. You do know slander is a sin right? I do no further interaction with you.
and how could you stop interacting with me since I dropped off the last forum you were on weeks ago— that makes no sense.
Standing on a doctrinal position is NOT trolling. You put me down and make up lies to present yourself in a good light. But I see thru your unkindness, your arrogance, and your duplicity. If you truly didnt care, you would’ve dropped the matter, but you had to have the last word. You do know slander is a sin right? I do no further interaction with you.
Rev 6 and the 5th seal proves that the souls of saints that have died are shouting in heaven. Try that when sleeping.
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
All the bolded words relate to the souls of believers who have martyred. They sure ain't sleeping.
Do you understand the difference between literal and figurative? Let's see.
John 11-
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,
Jesus used "sleep" figuratively for Lazarus' physical death.
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.
All the bolded words relate to the souls of believers who have martyred. They sure ain't sleeping.
Do you understand the difference between literal and figurative? Let's see.
John 11-
11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,
Jesus used "sleep" figuratively for Lazarus' physical death.
-
1
- Show all
My bad.
Where all souls of unbelievers go until "raised" for the GWT judgment.
OK, Hades is the Greek, and Sheol is Hebrew. Same place. Where ALL souls go after physical death. It has compartments; at least 3.
Abraham's bosom, or Paradise, Torments, and Tartarus for certain fallen angels.
Why do you have such a resistance to the account being literal about where souls of dead people go?
Only those who have bought the "soul sleep" idea would want to resist it.
It isn't even close to a parable.
Where all souls of unbelievers go until "raised" for the GWT judgment.
OK, Hades is the Greek, and Sheol is Hebrew. Same place. Where ALL souls go after physical death. It has compartments; at least 3.
Abraham's bosom, or Paradise, Torments, and Tartarus for certain fallen angels.
Why do you have such a resistance to the account being literal about where souls of dead people go?
Only those who have bought the "soul sleep" idea would want to resist it.
It isn't even close to a parable.
-
1
- Show all
It's not only all possible, it's all a fact.
Souls do not sleep. Rev 6 and the 5th seal has martyred souls in heaven shouting for revenge, and given robes and told to wait.
Doesn't sound like a slumber party to me.
I don't agree with your take on Paul's comment about being absent from the body and present with the Lord.
2 Cor 5:6,8
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
From the interlinear:
v.8 We are confident now and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Sure sounds like one or the other.
v.6 says believers who are alive on earth (at home in the body) are absent from the Lord.
So it is an either/or situation. We are either alive in our physical bodies, or we are absent from our bodies and at home with the Lord.
So, this passage, and Luke 16 literal account and Rev 6 and the 5th seal, the idea of soul sleep is refuted.
When sleep is used for physical death, it is figurative. The soul is at home with the Lord, which is proved by Rev 6.
Oh, btw, when Jesus told one of the thiefs on the cross that he would be WITH Jesus in Paradise on THAT DAY, was Jesus inviting him to a slumber party or something? Of course not.
The evidence is clear. The only thing that could be said to be sleeping after a believer dies is his/her physical body. Waiting to be resurrected when King Jesus comes back. And we see this in Rev 20:5.
Souls do not sleep. Rev 6 and the 5th seal has martyred souls in heaven shouting for revenge, and given robes and told to wait.
Doesn't sound like a slumber party to me.
I don't agree with your take on Paul's comment about being absent from the body and present with the Lord.
2 Cor 5:6,8
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
From the interlinear:
v.8 We are confident now and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Sure sounds like one or the other.
v.6 says believers who are alive on earth (at home in the body) are absent from the Lord.
So it is an either/or situation. We are either alive in our physical bodies, or we are absent from our bodies and at home with the Lord.
So, this passage, and Luke 16 literal account and Rev 6 and the 5th seal, the idea of soul sleep is refuted.
When sleep is used for physical death, it is figurative. The soul is at home with the Lord, which is proved by Rev 6.
Oh, btw, when Jesus told one of the thiefs on the cross that he would be WITH Jesus in Paradise on THAT DAY, was Jesus inviting him to a slumber party or something? Of course not.
The evidence is clear. The only thing that could be said to be sleeping after a believer dies is his/her physical body. Waiting to be resurrected when King Jesus comes back. And we see this in Rev 20:5.
-
1
- Show all
well You seem to know a lot of delusional things about me. Let’s see what transpired
Phenomenal said
“ Every "immoral soul" believer has all their life believed that at death, the body goes into the grave and the disembodied "soul" either enters heaven or goes burning in hell without a body...until a guy like me comes along and throws a monkey wrench into their theology, leaving them scrambling for ideas on how the Rich Man and Lazarus can have resurrection bodies before the resurrection even takes place.
…Jesus contradicted Scripture by depicting the Rich Man and Lazarus "raised with a spiritual body" before the resurrection at the end of time when Scripture says the dead will be raised with spiritual bodies.”
I responded to his quote
“lol you certainly think a lot of yourself but no I don’t see any monkey wrench you’ve thrown
Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying so you think he did but it’s never going to be that Jesus said the wrong thing it’s always going to be we don’t quite get what he’s saying and we are interpreting things other than how he made it clear “
then lol here comes the instability and wuote frankly delusions
“Wow. Just wow you said to phoneman
“Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying”
Both you and david tree are always equating Jesus words with YOUR own words. You two are beyond arrogant .
Neither of you can hold a candle to his arguments. its like comparing Mt Killamanjato to an ant hill . He consistently blows you all out of the water. And that includes my arguments— and I am in complete agreement with “
so you and he are saying Jesus condtradicted his own word but you both have it all figured out and suddenly I’m the one who’s false lol yeah agreeing with and understanding Jesus is always right and when we insist he’s contradicting himself it’s we who would be wrong I like how this demonstrates exactly what I meant by unstable
Here your next response after I showed you the conversation which of course you avoided to keep your silly grudge going
“ News alert— you are not i repeat NOT Jesus— stop equating your false doctrine to be synonymous with his.
( complete invention and delusion I’ve never claimed to be Jesus , a prophet , a teacher , a wise man ect that’s all that dislike you have for me telling you that stuff delusions
Grudge? I have no more grudge against you than Jesus had against the Pharisees or Paul had against the false teachers.
( again I’m false because I responded that Jesus doesn’t contradict himself but the delusion says I’m ten false one what I’d say is the persons agreeing Jesus contradicts scripture are always wrong and false
Am i angered by both your false doctrine and your arrogance in thinking you have the corner on the truth-YES!🔥
and yes again your heart dull
Of dislike of quite evident your wuote angered a lot I’ve noticed with many people but I think it’s more about what’s in you not that everyone else is false
sort of the instability point I was joking about
but feel free to continue on with your rants I’ll just ignore you like I have for months your a source of constant carbal
Arguing towards me and it’s really sort of useless in my own life
so again I hope you find some peace in your heart but beginning with the idea that Jesus contradicts scripture isn’t the path to that place
Phenomenal said
“ Every "immoral soul" believer has all their life believed that at death, the body goes into the grave and the disembodied "soul" either enters heaven or goes burning in hell without a body...until a guy like me comes along and throws a monkey wrench into their theology, leaving them scrambling for ideas on how the Rich Man and Lazarus can have resurrection bodies before the resurrection even takes place.
…Jesus contradicted Scripture by depicting the Rich Man and Lazarus "raised with a spiritual body" before the resurrection at the end of time when Scripture says the dead will be raised with spiritual bodies.”
I responded to his quote
“lol you certainly think a lot of yourself but no I don’t see any monkey wrench you’ve thrown
Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying so you think he did but it’s never going to be that Jesus said the wrong thing it’s always going to be we don’t quite get what he’s saying and we are interpreting things other than how he made it clear “
then lol here comes the instability and wuote frankly delusions
“Wow. Just wow you said to phoneman
“Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying”
Both you and david tree are always equating Jesus words with YOUR own words. You two are beyond arrogant .
Neither of you can hold a candle to his arguments. its like comparing Mt Killamanjato to an ant hill . He consistently blows you all out of the water. And that includes my arguments— and I am in complete agreement with “
so you and he are saying Jesus condtradicted his own word but you both have it all figured out and suddenly I’m the one who’s false lol yeah agreeing with and understanding Jesus is always right and when we insist he’s contradicting himself it’s we who would be wrong I like how this demonstrates exactly what I meant by unstable
Here your next response after I showed you the conversation which of course you avoided to keep your silly grudge going
“ News alert— you are not i repeat NOT Jesus— stop equating your false doctrine to be synonymous with his.
( complete invention and delusion I’ve never claimed to be Jesus , a prophet , a teacher , a wise man ect that’s all that dislike you have for me telling you that stuff delusions
Grudge? I have no more grudge against you than Jesus had against the Pharisees or Paul had against the false teachers.
( again I’m false because I responded that Jesus doesn’t contradict himself but the delusion says I’m ten false one what I’d say is the persons agreeing Jesus contradicts scripture are always wrong and false
Am i angered by both your false doctrine and your arrogance in thinking you have the corner on the truth-YES!🔥
and yes again your heart dull
Of dislike of quite evident your wuote angered a lot I’ve noticed with many people but I think it’s more about what’s in you not that everyone else is false
sort of the instability point I was joking about
but feel free to continue on with your rants I’ll just ignore you like I have for months your a source of constant carbal
Arguing towards me and it’s really sort of useless in my own life
so again I hope you find some peace in your heart but beginning with the idea that Jesus contradicts scripture isn’t the path to that place
amen he walked away perfectly alive and well even as far back as Samuel he don’t cease to exist either he was sleeping and awoken by a spiritist
“And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.”
1 Samuel 28:14-15 KJV
Seems like he’s alive but his body was long dead
“And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.”
1 Samuel 28:14-15 KJV
Seems like he’s alive but his body was long dead
-
1
- Show all
