Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?
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“Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying”
yes I stand by it whether it’s he you or anyone Jesus is always right if that seems like “ arrogance “ to you maybe its sort of the same point Jesus is always going to have the right answer he is never going to contradict scripture !!! if you want to learn you should first come to the part where you believe Jesus and his word above others “ crafty arguments “
“Both you and david tree are always equating Jesus words with YOUR own words. You two are beyond arrogant .”
Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying”
how is that me comparing my words to Jesus ? Sounds like I’m saying Jesus always has the right word like him coming after the tribulation
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
my point to him , you or anyone else is that Jesus is the one God sent to teach people the truth lol that has nothing no connection to
Me comparing myself or my words to Jesus I think you may want to take some reading comprehension classes of hats how you interpret things
but again I’m going to always stick to what the gospel Makes clear and when people are contradicting Jesus words it is always going to be them who are wrong
to be clear Jesus words are written in the Bible not coming out of me you should let the grudge go it isn’t going to affect me no matter how often the rants and thumbs down from you it’s irrelevant to me just letting you know grudges aren’t good for the person harboring them
yes I stand by it whether it’s he you or anyone Jesus is always right if that seems like “ arrogance “ to you maybe its sort of the same point Jesus is always going to have the right answer he is never going to contradict scripture !!! if you want to learn you should first come to the part where you believe Jesus and his word above others “ crafty arguments “
“Both you and david tree are always equating Jesus words with YOUR own words. You two are beyond arrogant .”
Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying”
how is that me comparing my words to Jesus ? Sounds like I’m saying Jesus always has the right word like him coming after the tribulation
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Matthew 24:29-31 KJV
my point to him , you or anyone else is that Jesus is the one God sent to teach people the truth lol that has nothing no connection to
Me comparing myself or my words to Jesus I think you may want to take some reading comprehension classes of hats how you interpret things
but again I’m going to always stick to what the gospel Makes clear and when people are contradicting Jesus words it is always going to be them who are wrong
to be clear Jesus words are written in the Bible not coming out of me you should let the grudge go it isn’t going to affect me no matter how often the rants and thumbs down from you it’s irrelevant to me just letting you know grudges aren’t good for the person harboring them
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There you go! 
Scripture SHOWS that there are souls in heaven, talking no less! Jesus gave an account of 2 men who died and went to Sheol. One to Abraham's bosom and one to Torments. And the guy in Torments talked with Abraham. How is that sleep?
Scripture SHOWS that there are souls in heaven, talking no less! Jesus gave an account of 2 men who died and went to Sheol. One to Abraham's bosom and one to Torments. And the guy in Torments talked with Abraham. How is that sleep?
They can speak across a great
chasm and the people in heaven are a able to see billions of people screaming in agony in torment— even their loved ones? Oh w exception of the rich man who is engulfef in flames yet is able to carry on a conversation? Lord have mercy….🙄
News alert— you are not i repeat NOT Jesus— stop equating your false doctrine to be synonymous with his.
Grudge? I have no more grudge against you than Jesus had against the Pharisees or Paul had against the false teachers. Am i angered by both your false doctrine and your arrogance in thinking you have the corner on the truth-YES!🔥
Grudge? I have no more grudge against you than Jesus had against the Pharisees or Paul had against the false teachers. Am i angered by both your false doctrine and your arrogance in thinking you have the corner on the truth-YES!🔥
Because it isn't a parable. Has no characteristics of a parable. Jesus wasn't "teaching in parables" when He described a scene in Sheol.
While all that may be true, when Jesus named TWO people who had lived and died, His account was a personal account of life after death for OT people.
OK, which verse says that souls will be "engulfed in flames"??? Why are you now having to make up stuff to make your point?
Have you ever read the account in Luke 16? The man in Torments was "hot" and wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue. Nothing about flames. He was actually exhibiting what the name of the place he was in...torments.
It is obvious that he was in torment over his lost 5 brothers who he wanted to avoid where he ended up. As well as being hot.
Can you show any parable where Jesus named real people?
While all that may be true, when Jesus named TWO people who had lived and died, His account was a personal account of life after death for OT people.
OK, which verse says that souls will be "engulfed in flames"??? Why are you now having to make up stuff to make your point?
Have you ever read the account in Luke 16? The man in Torments was "hot" and wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue. Nothing about flames. He was actually exhibiting what the name of the place he was in...torments.
It is obvious that he was in torment over his lost 5 brothers who he wanted to avoid where he ended up. As well as being hot.
Can you show any parable where Jesus named real people?
are you unstable? Because of this bizarre deal let me recount what was said
he the one your saying is so right wrote
“Every "immoral soul" believer has all their life believed that at death, the body goes into the grave and the disembodied "soul" either enters heaven or goes burning in hell without a body...until a guy like me comes along and throws a monkey wrench into their theology, leaving them scrambling for ideas on how the Rich Man and Lazarus can have resurrection bodies before the resurrection even takes place.”
“Jesus contradicted Scripture by depicting the Rich Man and Lazarus “
that’s what I was responding to and I said this
“lol you certainly think a lot of yourself but no I don’t see any monkey wrench you’ve thrown
Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying so you think he didbut it’s never going to be that Jesus said the wrong thing it’s always going to be we don’t quite get what he’s saying and we are interpreting things other than how he made it clear”
So let me be clear to you re you agreeing that Jesus contradicts scripture ??????? You are blinded by the grudge you near towards me the only arrogance in gay exchange is the guy explaining g everyone has it wrong but him d even Jesus condtradicts scripture
but here you are once again with the carnality and stuffing and false accusations because of the harbored grievance whatever that is
you have become bizarre in your interactions with me if you persist you’ll be my first block ever lol
he the one your saying is so right wrote
“Every "immoral soul" believer has all their life believed that at death, the body goes into the grave and the disembodied "soul" either enters heaven or goes burning in hell without a body...until a guy like me comes along and throws a monkey wrench into their theology, leaving them scrambling for ideas on how the Rich Man and Lazarus can have resurrection bodies before the resurrection even takes place.”
“Jesus contradicted Scripture by depicting the Rich Man and Lazarus “
that’s what I was responding to and I said this
“lol you certainly think a lot of yourself but no I don’t see any monkey wrench you’ve thrown
Jesus doesn’t contradict scripture it’s just that you don’t understand what he is saying so you think he didbut it’s never going to be that Jesus said the wrong thing it’s always going to be we don’t quite get what he’s saying and we are interpreting things other than how he made it clear”
So let me be clear to you re you agreeing that Jesus contradicts scripture ??????? You are blinded by the grudge you near towards me the only arrogance in gay exchange is the guy explaining g everyone has it wrong but him d even Jesus condtradicts scripture
but here you are once again with the carnality and stuffing and false accusations because of the harbored grievance whatever that is
you have become bizarre in your interactions with me if you persist you’ll be my first block ever lol
True, but since there's no punctuation in the Greek, which verb does the noun "today" modify? Is it (A) "I say" or (B) "shalt be"?
If we place a comma after "today" and make it modify "I say" which would read like this:
"Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with Me in paradise" -- this completely harmonizes with Scripture.
If we place a comma before "today" and make it modify "shalt be" - as is popularly claimed - which would read like this:
"Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in paradise" -- it causes total confusion.
It's interesting that the word "sameron" ("today") in Scripture precedes the verb it modifies only 50 times, but follows the verb that it modifies 170 time, so the majority use strengthens the argument for "today" modifying "I say", though this fact is ancillary seeing the maintenance of Scriptural harmony alone warrants rejecting the popular view.
If we place a comma after "today" and make it modify "I say" which would read like this:
"Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with Me in paradise" -- this completely harmonizes with Scripture.
If we place a comma before "today" and make it modify "shalt be" - as is popularly claimed - which would read like this:
"Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with Me in paradise" -- it causes total confusion.
It's interesting that the word "sameron" ("today") in Scripture precedes the verb it modifies only 50 times, but follows the verb that it modifies 170 time, so the majority use strengthens the argument for "today" modifying "I say", though this fact is ancillary seeing the maintenance of Scriptural harmony alone warrants rejecting the popular view.
No dead people come with Jesus- The dead are raised when Jesus comes, those that sleep in Jesus will be brought to life when Jesus comes.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Compare the scripture and with scripture and it is clear that sleep is death. And it is death that has no consciousness.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Compare the scripture and with scripture and it is clear that sleep is death. And it is death that has no consciousness.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
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21Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. 23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
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do you think Christians ever actually die though ? Or have they already passed from death to life ?
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
I guess what I’m asking is do Christians die with their flesh body ? Or do they remain alive by the spirit ?
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26 KJV
this isn’t a reference to our flesh body not dying but our living spirit . we have faith because we believe his word
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
we live by faith because we hear and believe the truth and have already passed through death into life eternal and the kingdom
dead saints ? There’s no such thing since christ rose
“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53
Christians arent headed to death they already died here
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
Romans 6:3-4, 6
Our body is already dead but our spirit isn’t going to die in Christ we aren’t headed to the grave with our body we are part of his body and are going to love with him after we part the flesh
we’ve already died once
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
when we leave our flesh behind we’re going to appear before Christ and be judged for what we did while in our body we aren’t going to die some are alseep even now others are alive and well who believed the gospel and entered the kingdom after this world
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24
I guess what I’m asking is do Christians die with their flesh body ? Or do they remain alive by the spirit ?
“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
John 11:25-26 KJV
this isn’t a reference to our flesh body not dying but our living spirit . we have faith because we believe his word
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
we live by faith because we hear and believe the truth and have already passed through death into life eternal and the kingdom
dead saints ? There’s no such thing since christ rose
“And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
Matthew 27:52-53
Christians arent headed to death they already died here
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
Romans 6:3-4, 6
Our body is already dead but our spirit isn’t going to die in Christ we aren’t headed to the grave with our body we are part of his body and are going to love with him after we part the flesh
we’ve already died once
“And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”
Hebrews 9:27 KJV
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
when we leave our flesh behind we’re going to appear before Christ and be judged for what we did while in our body we aren’t going to die some are alseep even now others are alive and well who believed the gospel and entered the kingdom after this world
While a proper name is usually avoided by Jesus in His parables, He used "Lazarus" in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to prove that which Abraham declared to be so at the end of the parable:
In just a short while, a literal man named Lazarus would literally be raised from the dead, yet despite having in their libraries the literal "Moses and the Prophets" Word of God, instead of the Rich Man's literal brothers - the Jews whose literal father was also literal Abraham - hearing and believing what was written therein, they went away in unbelief to take counsel on how they might destroy literal Lazarus and their literal flesh and blood Messiah.
The use of a proper name in the passage doesn't even begin to tip the scale in favor of "immortal soul" doctrine when placed across from the overwhelming weight of evidence that proves otherwise.
In just a short while, a literal man named Lazarus would literally be raised from the dead, yet despite having in their libraries the literal "Moses and the Prophets" Word of God, instead of the Rich Man's literal brothers - the Jews whose literal father was also literal Abraham - hearing and believing what was written therein, they went away in unbelief to take counsel on how they might destroy literal Lazarus and their literal flesh and blood Messiah.
The use of a proper name in the passage doesn't even begin to tip the scale in favor of "immortal soul" doctrine when placed across from the overwhelming weight of evidence that proves otherwise.
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Being brought from death to life, coming from the grave to meet the lord in the air.
"them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring (To life) with him"
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
"will God G2316 bring G71 with G4862 him. G846"
G2316 = theos, a deity, supreme Divinity,
G71 = agō, A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.
G4862 = sun, A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.
"them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring (To life) with him"
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
"will God G2316 bring G71 with G4862 him. G846"
G2316 = theos, a deity, supreme Divinity,
G71 = agō, A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.
G4862 = sun, A primary preposition denoting union; with or together (but much closer than G3326 or G3844), that is, by association, companionship, process, resemblance, possession, instrumentality, addition, etc.: - beside, with. In compounds it has similar applications, including completeness.
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“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
1 Corinthians 15:45-49 KJV
We’re not being remade into living souls we already are we’re being born again as spiritual beings made in Gods image and likeness made for the eternal kingdom
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
1 Corinthians 15:45-49 KJV
We’re not being remade into living souls we already are we’re being born again as spiritual beings made in Gods image and likeness made for the eternal kingdom
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