The relationship between the Remission of Sins, the Blood of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost

[Everlasting-Grace]

Which translation would you like me to quote from? Come now, I'm SUPER busy.

you can use any version you like. I am not bent out of shape when one uses a certain version. I would stay away from the NLT thought, Just my personal preference. We tried to teach from it because it was so much easier to read. But then had to keep correcting it over and over.

But if there is an issue, we can always go to the greek or hebrew texts..

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

you can use any version you like. I am not bent out of shape when one uses a certain version. I would stay away from the NLT thought, Just my personal preference. We tried to teach from it because it was so much easier to read. But then had to keep correcting it over and over.

But if there is an issue, we can always go to the greek or hebrew texts..

I hear you, but . . . I think that we're reached a point where we realize that we're just spinning wheels getting nowhere. It's probably best to let it go.

 

[KelbyofGod]

@KelbyofGod
To clarify, the post addresses one's ability to comprehend spiritual truths after water baptism but more importantly is remission of one's personal sin takes place as well.

I was contemplating that idea of water baptism opening the eyes. In short, I'd have to say I disagree because I can think of several scriptures relating to the SPIRIT opening things to us... guiding us into all truth; showing us things to come; bringing all things to our remembrance; teacheth you of all things, etc... but I don't know of similar verses associated with water baptism. Can you post one/some for consideration? (<-- You had to know that was coming... lol)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I was contemplating that idea of water baptism opening the eyes. In short, I'd have to say I disagree because I can think of several scriptures relating to the SPIRIT opening things to us... guiding us into all truth; showing us things to come; bringing all things to our remembrance; teacheth you of all things, etc... but I don't know of similar verses associated with water baptism. Can you post one/some for consideration? (<-- You had to know that was coming... lol)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Saul was Transformed after his Damascus Road experience and later baptized. Water is water . . . it is part of this corrupt, dying, decaying world. Nothing corrupt is capable of purifying anything whatsoever.

 

[Blain]

Hi Blain,
Steven Covey taught that concept of "the best way to learn is to consider that you will soon be required to teach it to someone else" in his book "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" (Which I highly recomment). But I'm sure he wasn't the first. This may be a very bold statement but that's why I ask people (believers) to use what they currently know and see if they can discern who DOES and who DOES NOT have the Holy Ghost. If they can't then I suggest they may not really even know what the Holy Ghost is, and certainly shouldn't be suggesting they are an authority on the matter.

You might have to start asking specific questions regarding how to pray with "expectation of results" rather than praying with a "Gee, I hope it happens" because it will take some thorough explaining. But Do keep after me about it. I might need to start a different thread to address it without mixing purposes with this thread..

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

P.S. You're not alone in the experience of God's peace. My friend and I call it "meteor peace" because the first time I experienced it I was lying on my bed and felt such peace in God that I knew if a meteor crashed through my roof, it couldn't hurt me and I'd be OK. The second time I experienced it, I was again on my bed and felt such peace in God that I knew that even if a meteor crashed through my roof and demolished me, I would still be OK. (line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little, I learn)

Oh yes by all means start a thread on it or at the very least pm me

 

[Pilgrimshope]

not everything is about the same things - as decided, learned by us in our reading the Bible or by taking on doctrines of others -- with or without realizing it. God's understanding is vast -- ours is much smaller.

and not everything talked about in the Bible may be at our level of understanding - and if we do not progress much in understanding over time, we could take meat concepts and turn them in our mind to match up with milk, and possibly an understanding of milk or herbs not completely correct. we must learn from God to really learn -- undoctrified, correctly - real truth... and going beyond Milk and herbs and everything that might be Incorrect.

Yeah we just have to go tomjesus and the gospel and believe what he's teaching that's salvation

 

[KelbyofGod]

Saul was Transformed after his Damascus Road experience and later baptized. Water is water . . . it is part of this corrupt, dying, decaying world. Nothing corrupt is capable of purifying anything whatsoever.

Don't let "the reward of physical dipping" be mistaken for "the reward for faithful submission" (to obtain the promised result).

"Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. [13] And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? [14] Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean." - 2 Kings 5:12-14 KJV​

--And--

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" - 1 Peter 3:21 KJV​

--And--

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Acts 22:16 KJV​

It doesn't have to make sense to us, but it produces the promised result...if, and only if, it is submitted to.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[KelbyofGod]

Don't let "the reward of physical dipping" be mistaken for "the reward for faithful submission" (to obtain the promised result).

"Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. [13] And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? [14] Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean." - 2 Kings 5:12-14 KJV​

--And--

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" - 1 Peter 3:21 KJV​

--And--

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Acts 22:16 KJV​

It doesn't have to make sense to us, but it produces the promised result...if, and only if, it is submitted to.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

@2ndTimothyGroup ,

That's also why baptism is not a "work of righteousness which we have done". It is a submission to HIS righteousness...because HE is the one who prescribed it.)

"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." - John 1:6 KJV​

"And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, ..." - John 1:33 KJV​

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." - Mark 1:4 KJV​

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." - Romans 10:3 KJV​

"Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. [14] But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness [not 'works']. Then he suffered him." - Matthew 3:15 KJV​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Don't let "the reward of physical dipping" be mistaken for "the reward for faithful submission" (to obtain the promised result).

"Are not Abana and Pharpar, rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? may I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage. [13] And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean? [14] Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean." - 2 Kings 5:12-14 KJV​

--And--

"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" - 1 Peter 3:21 KJV​

--And--

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." - Acts 22:16 KJV​

It doesn't have to make sense to us, but it produces the promised result...if, and only if, it is submitted to.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I was Powerfully Indwelt by the Holy Spirit several years ago to the degree that the Power of God was so Peaceful and Loving, it would have killed me if the Lord had allowed me to feel more of His Almighty Presence. I know for a fact that water doesn't save anyone. Thus, a person can be saved in the middle of the dryest desert, or on the side of Mt Everest where a dunking isn't possible, and a person can be saved minutes before they die (again, no water baptism).

Believe me, I understand Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I wish that all had the Spirit placed upon them as has been placed upon me.

Numbers 11:29 NLT - "But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit upon them all!"

Most people haven't a clue as to the depth of what Moses was saying . . . I do. I have felt the Power that parted seas and separated the Jordan River. I have felt the Power that can raise the dead. I have felt the Power of the One who created all that is.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

@2ndTimothyGroup ,

That's also why baptism is not a "work of righteousness which we have done". It is a submission to HIS righteousness...because HE is the one who prescribed it.)

"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." - John 1:6 KJV​

"And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, ..." - John 1:33 KJV​

"John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins." - Mark 1:4 KJV​

"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God." - Romans 10:3 KJV​

"Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. [14] But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness [not 'works']. Then he suffered him." - Matthew 3:15 KJV​

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Yep. If you recall, I was showing you these very passages (above) . . . twice.

 

[Blain]

Water baptism is a one time thing some could argue that spirit baptism is a reoccuring thing a continued rebrith of sorts as one grows in Christ, persobally I haven't found much evidence to support this but there is a major difference in water and spirit baptism and only one opens our eyes to God's hidden truth.
The spirit works in much the same way all of God's creations do slow and steady so the unveiling of the deeper things works in the same way.
Water baptisms is just water it is meant to be a testimony of sorts that you have given yourself fully to Christ but it has no special power or anything like the baptism of the spirit does

 

[Blain]

I was Powerfully Indwelt by the Holy Spirit several years ago to the degree that the Power of God was so Peaceful and Loving, it would have killed me if the Lord had allowed me to feel more of His Almighty Presence. I know for a fact that water doesn't save anyone. Thus, a person can be saved in the middle of the dryest desert, or on the side of Mt Everest where a dunking isn't possible, and a person can be saved minutes before they die (again, no water baptism).

Believe me, I understand Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I wish that all had the Spirit placed upon them as has been placed upon me.

Numbers 11:29 NLT - "But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit upon them all!"

Most people haven't a clue as to the depth of what Moses was saying . . . I do. I have felt the Power that parted seas and separated the Jordan River. I have felt the Power that can raise the dead. I have felt the Power of the One who created all that is.

Yes I too was baptized in the holy spirit it was when I was first saved it was as if I was consumed inside and out with fire power and life like electricity flowing through my veins
I have had this odd feeling lately though that it is going to happen again but on a deeper level i can't shake the feeling and can't really find any evidence to support it i just know it has something to do with an annointing of some kind

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Yes I too was baptized in the holy spirit it was when I was first saved it was as if I was consumed inside and out with fire power and life like electricity flowing through my veins
I have had this odd feeling lately though that it is going to happen again but on a deeper level i can't shake the feeling and can't really find any evidence to support it i just know it has something to do with an anointing of some kind

I've felt the electricity before as well. Unfortunately, that was a mental con-job by a pastor who called us, a group of people attending a "meeting," and told us what was going to happen. I was duped. Having been granted the experience described above, I now realize, conclusively, that my previous experience was of human origin. My old best friend, however, believes that he was Transformed during that "experience." Unfortunately, his post-experience life does not demonstrate any kind of Transformation except one of debauchery. He even admitted that he had totally turned away from the Lord. Well, then, son . . . it wasn't a True Transformation.

My experience did not originate from anything source within this universe but from the Lord Himself. It was so Powerful, and I believe so 100%, that if I was somehow instructed to go back to that same spot where I'd have my leg removed. I'd go without hesitation. I Trust in God 100%. I will never go back to who I once was, for my life has been under the Lord's control and there is nothing I can do about it. The amount of hatred that consumed my life . . . I cannot stop it. People hate me and I cannot stop it, regardless of what I do or say. Powerfully, the Lord has turned hearts and minds against me, not as punishment, but as evidence of His Almighty Power.

Matthew 10:22 NASB95 - "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

 

[KelbyofGod]

I was Powerfully Indwelt by the Holy Spirit several years ago to the degree that the Power of God was so Peaceful and Loving, it would have killed me if the Lord had allowed me to feel more of His Almighty Presence. I know for a fact that water doesn't save anyone. Thus, a person can be saved in the middle of the dryest desert, or on the side of Mt Everest where a dunking isn't possible, and a person can be saved minutes before they die (again, no water baptism).

Believe me, I understand Baptism of the Holy Spirit. I wish that all had the Spirit placed upon them as has been placed upon me.

Numbers 11:29 NLT - "But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit upon them all!"

Most people haven't a clue as to the depth of what Moses was saying . . . I do. I have felt the Power that parted seas and separated the Jordan River. I have felt the Power that can raise the dead. I have felt the Power of the One who created all that is.

I perceive that you might hold the "Salvation must be one-pieced and/or instantaneous" doctrine that this thread is meant to shine light upon.

What makes it tough is that I see a love and zeal of God in you, same as @Blain, and I don't want to offend either of you. That makes it tough for me to proceed, since I feel you may have already become a bit offended/agitated. But your post-script is "I don't want to BE right...I want to get it right". So I will try to point out (slowly) what caused the offense (why my posting may have seemed offensive).

Question #1 (a & b). DO you hold the doctrine that salvation is instantaneous? Or do you believe there is a process (or steps) involved?

NOTE: It is important that you deeply consider the answer to #1 before moving on, otherwise you may not see the distraction that took place that caused the need to point out Question #2

Question #2. Notice that NOTHING in the post your quote addresses IN ANY WAY questions your (or anyone else's) experience with SPIRIT baptism. It was ONLY addressing one's relationship to WATER baptism. @Everlasting-Grace was nice enough to point out that SPIRIT baptism can come BEFORE or AFTER water baptism... So those two SHOULD be able to be talked about separately. So why did you seem to get defensive of your interaction with the SPIRIT, if we were only talking about WATER?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Question #1 (a & b). DO you hold the doctrine that salvation is instantaneous? Or do you believe there is a process (or steps) involved?

The Power that I have felt has led me to understand this particular principle: God can do absolutely whatever He wants.

Exodus 33:19 KJV - "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

One thing is clear, though . . . the Old Testament Saints, while they were Purified and made who by Christ, they would have to wait for his death to be made Right with God.

Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."

The above is a Keystone passage for the entire Bible. It provides so much clarity upon a few different doctrines.

So why did you seem to get defensive of your interaction with the SPIRIT, if we were only talking about WATER?

I have no idea of what you're talking about. I was stating what I believe to be are facts. I have cancer . . . it's going to take a lot more than "that" to get me uptight. I have real issues to deal with.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

And by the way, as you have pointed out, Blain and I were not "nice enough" to point out something specific. Are you sure it isn't you that is offended?

 

[Blain]

I've felt the electricity before as well. Unfortunately, that was a mental con-job by a pastor who called us, a group of people attending a "meeting," and told us what was going to happen. I was duped. Having been granted the experience described above, I now realize, conclusively, that my previous experience was of human origin. My old best friend, however, believes that he was Transformed during that "experience." Unfortunately, his post-experience life does not demonstrate any kind of Transformation except one of debauchery. He even admitted that he had totally turned away from the Lord. Well, then, son . . . it wasn't a True Transformation.

My experience did not originate from anything source within this universe but from the Lord Himself. It was so Powerful, and I believe so 100%, that if I was somehow instructed to go back to that same spot where I'd have my leg removed. I'd go without hesitation. I Trust in God 100%. I will never go back to who I once was, for my life has been under the Lord's control and there is nothing I can do about it. The amount of hatred that consumed my life . . . I cannot stop it. People hate me and I cannot stop it, regardless of what I do or say. Powerfully, the Lord has turned hearts and minds against me, not as punishment, but as evidence of His Almighty Power.

Matthew 10:22 NASB95 - "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

That is beyond messed up what that pastor did I can't stand people like that it's as if they have no regard to God at all as if they don't think any punishment is going to befall them for taking peoples money and doing parlor tricks

 

[Blain]

I perceive that you might hold the "Salvation must be one-pieced and/or instantaneous" doctrine that this thread is meant to shine light upon.

What makes it tough is that I see a love and zeal of God in you, same as @Blain, and I don't want to offend either of you. That makes it tough for me to proceed, since I feel you may have already become a bit offended/agitated. But your post-script is "I don't want to BE right...I want to get it right". So I will try to point out (slowly) what caused the offense (why my posting may have seemed offensive).

Question #1 (a & b). DO you hold the doctrine that salvation is instantaneous? Or do you believe there is a process (or steps) involved?

NOTE: It is important that you deeply consider the answer to #1 before moving on, otherwise you may not see the distraction that took place that caused the need to point out Question #2

Question #2. Notice that NOTHING in the post your quote addresses IN ANY WAY questions your (or anyone else's) experience with SPIRIT baptism. It was ONLY addressing one's relationship to WATER baptism. @Everlasting-Grace was nice enough to point out that SPIRIT baptism can come BEFORE or AFTER water baptism... So those two SHOULD be able to be talked about separately. So why did you seem to get defensive of your interaction with the SPIRIT, if we were only talking about WATER?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

No you haven't offended me if one cannot deal with opposing view points without being offended they shouldn't be in any discussions or debates. I only know that for me personally it was instant When I was saved I woke up in bed filled with this fire and life inside me and such joy i got right up and danced around my room and I am the kind of person who requires a lot of coffee to get up in the morning.
My encounters with God from then on only got more surreal and intimate my life has never been the same.

But I don't think this is how it always works for some it is a long process not an immedient thing I don't know why God works this way with some people but I just know how it happened for me.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

That is beyond messed up what that pastor did I can't stand people like that it's as if they have no regard to God at all as if they don't think any punishment is going to befall them for taking peoples money and doing parlor tricks

That "pastor" didn't know God at all. If he did, he would have never conned us into feeling the electricity in our arms . . . and the rolling around on the floor with stupid laughter as everyone behind us (who wasn't in the pre-meeting) sat and watched. You're right . . . that man does not believe in God, for if he did, he would know that the Lord could vaporize him in a nanosecond. Poof . . . disintegrated into such small particles that his flesh, though still in existence, would be invisible to the naked eye. THAT is the Power of God.

Same thing with Kenneth Copeland, etc . . . these guys might think they believe, but they don't. However, if they were to have a Damascus-Road-like experience, they would LIVE for the Truth, and integrity, Righteousness, Holiness and Purity. They would Turn from their obvious ways and no longer live for themselves, but live for others.

1 Corinthians 9:22 CSB - "To the weak I became weak, in order to win the weak. I have become all things to all people, so that I may by every possible means save some."

To those who KNOW God, the above passage will embody their lives. The will LIVE the words of 1 Cor 9:22.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

@KelbyofGod

I wanted to thank you for the opportunity to express my thoughts in your thread. It has been one of the better ones (by a long-shot). Thank you!!