Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 8, 2021
76
18
8
A pretrib rapture requires more than 1 rapture. And recall from the most cited passage on "the rapture" (1 Thess 4) the rapture occurs with a resurrection. The dead saints that come back with Jesus receive their glorified bodies and then the living believers are "changed in the twinkling of an eye". iow, they then receive their glorified bodies.

So, when one speaks of "the rapture" they must also include a resurrection. Since they always go together.

The pretribbers have several problems. One, there aren't any verses showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

Second, the Bible clearly teaches just one resurrection (which includes the living believers being "changed"). So that event must be placed carefully on the timeline of history.

If placed before the Tribulation, they have a huge problem. Rev 20:5 notes that martyrs from the Trib will be "raised to life" and reign with Christ for 1,000 years. The verse ends with "this is the FIRST resurrection".

But, if "the rapture" occurs 7 years before, Rev 20:5 cannot be right.

Acts 24:15 says there will be a resurrection of the saved (FIRST ONE) and a resurrection of the unsaved (second one).
THE FIRST RESURRECTION includes not only the believers from the 7-year period of the tribulations, but also the ones harvested from the 1000-year reign and --for that matter-- every believer from Adam's times (passing throughout the Church Age) all the way to the last one from the 1000-year reign--. That's when the first resurrection is fulfilled. And the first fruits of the resurrection TO LIFE is Christ Himself; but each in his own order:

[1Co 15:20, 23 NASB20] 20 But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. ... 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming [including the resurrected from the millennium]

Whereas THE SECOND RESURRECTION is to be equated with THE SECOND DEATH pronounced against the enbelievers:

[Jhn 5:28-29] "Do not be amazed because of this: a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad to a resurrection of condemnation.

[Rev 20:6, 14 NASB20] 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. ... 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

[Rev 21:8 NASB20] 8 "But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part [will be] in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Luk 17:22 And He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His comings.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in our transgressions, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and will raise us up with Him, and seat us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Rev 3:21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, just as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

Then following the SEVENS to the throne. Jesus Says:

Rev 1:20 a, c As for the mystery" (c) "the seven lampstands are the seven churches."

Co 6:14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.

1Co 6:15 a Do you not know that your bodies are parts of Christ?

1Co 6:17 The one who joins himself to the Lord is one Spirit with Him.

1Co 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

Act 7:48 "However, the Most High does not dwell in handmade things/G5499; Just as the prophet says"​

G5499 χειροποίητος cheiropoíētos, khi-rop-oy'-ay-tos; from G5495 and a derivative of G4160; manufactured, i.e. of human construction:—made by (make with) hands.

2Co 3:17 "Now" the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Here's where Jesus says the overcomers will Go!! Do you Remember Revelation 3:21? But the following verse is Rev 3:12

Rev 3:12 ‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God: New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

Rev 21:22 I saw no temple in it, because the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

He who overcomes:

Rev 2:28 Jesus "will give him the morning star."

Mat 13:43 “Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Mat 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

Rev 5:3 And there was no one in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.

And here's where the seven lampstands go! And notice that there is no one worthy in the heavens, earth, and under the earth; because they are all in the throne room; before the seals start breaking...

Rev 5:6, 9 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

There are two more time we see a new song in Revelations, Denoting the competition of another resurrection of the righteous... From this point the Revelations go eighteen Chapters without even a single mention of the Church: Even the words of Jesus go silent from verse two of chapter four. With the exception of the Gospels no other part of the scriptures are so completely devoid of the word Church.

Even at 19 times, neither is there any part of the scriptures so filled with the word church as the first three chapters of Revelations.

Show us Some Scriptures; and not just one or two taken out of Context like the RCC does.
Show us Scriptures that are stating that these things are not true...​
I love the Christmas colors; red and green. But I'm still unsure of what you point is.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,304
183
63
It lists her factories in one location that are burning as is witnessed by sailors.
Islam produces nothing. Jupiter and zeus are no longer in the picture.

So, no, you need a massive adjustment in that scenario you painted.
Not so brother, I can explain the whole chapter in depth. Maybe I need to start doing that in full. For starters, AGAIN, you are conflating the Harlot (ALL False Religion of all time) with these Government Beasts (Babylon = the Statue of Governments) which in the end time represent the Whole World Government under Satan's Dark Rule of confusion. Most people do not get that the last half of this chapter is simple PROSE about the plight of this evil and wicked world (Babylon) who followed Satan the deceiver, thus babel (Confusion) and Babylon (the Confused World) go hand in hand.

Rev. 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

{{{ This is TWO EVENTS, Satan is cast down to earth in the middle of the week (then chases the Woman/Israel) and Apollyon and his horde of Demons are freed from the Bottomless Pit, thus Babylon (Whole World) as become the habitation of Devils. }}}

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

{{{ Again, the World under Satan's dark rule = Babylon, so HER in this verse means Babylon, which as fallen because the the Day of Judgment has arrived, after she is Judged, Jesus will indeed take over, we are about to se her Judgments in PROSE, but we can see the actual Judgments in Rev. 8, 9 and 16. Why is the whole world being Judged? Because she is DRUNK on Babylon's (Satan's spirit of lies, greed, hate, lust, murder etc.) wine. The kings (leaders, presidents, rulers, think Biden, McConnel and Pelosi, LOL) have committed fornication with her, AND the Merchants through the abundance of he delicacies simply means they followed their lust for riches and fame over God. }}}

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

{{{ Here, this is the 144,000 fleeing Judea, this is the Woman fleeing into the Wilderness, God calls them to COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLES, lest you partake in her sins, AND her coming Plagues. (Judgments). Her is the WHOLE WORLD, not just one city, why cant people understand this? The whole world (Babylon) is getting Judged. }}}

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. 7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

{{{ God's Wrath is FILLED UP against mankind, not ONE CITY !! God indeed remembers, that is why He is bringing His judgments to earth, ALL THE EARTH, not one city. Her cup is filled up, this world has said we don't need God, we are our own god, thus this world thinks she is queen, but Gid sees her as poor widow facing judgment and sorrows. }}}

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, 10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

{{{ Here, we see that God's Judgment on Babylon (WHOLE WORLD) will last 42 months, we are given this in code twice, firstly in verse 8 where it says her (Babylon/World) plagues will come in ONE DAY, this is referring to the Day of the Lord, ONE DAY starts God's Wrath, but God's Wrath lasts for 42 months, we can see this in Rev. 8, 9 and 16 in full. The kings in verse 9 Lament and Cry when they see Babylon (WHOE WORLD) burning (1/3 of the trees burn an ALL of the grasses) but these same kings took glee in destroying the Harlot in Rev. 17:16(False Religion). Then in verse 10, the last significant verse in this chapter, the rest is PROSE, tells us that Babylon's (WHOLE WORLD) Judgment will come in ONE HOUR, now go look at Rev. 17:12, it says that the Kings will rule ONE HOUR with the Beast, who we know rules for 42 months, don't we? So, both ONE DAY and ONE HOUR means 42 months of Judgments. }}}

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her;(WHOLE WORLD that is Burning) for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

{{{ Well, we have one more verse that DEFINES the rest of the chapters prose. We see that all these Merchants in the WHOLE WORLD (Babylon) mourn and weep because this world is now getting pelted by God's Judgments over a 42 month period of time, the trees burn, the grasses burn, 1/3 of the world is hit by a massive asteroid, fishes die, ships sink, this Anti-Christ kills 1/4 of mankind and an Angelic Army slays 1/3 of this who have taken the ark of the Beast, so taking away 1 billion Christians who are Raptured, and the in the tribulation we will see 3-4 billion people killed, so, whereas those "MERCHANTS" nor have 8 billion clients to sell to, 4-5 billion of those will be gone, plus 1/3 of the world is burning (HER SMOKE GOES UP), thus these rich men who chose to trust in the monies and wealth of this world over God are now weeping like babies over Babylon's (WHOLE WORLD) Judgment. The rest of the chapter MOSTLY describes why these Merchants who trusted in this evil world are weeping and crying. Its PROSE. }}}

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble, 13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. 14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all. 15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

{{{ This simply describes all the things these wicked men trusted in over God, and how God's Judgments has TAKEN THEM ALL AWAY, and they will stand afar off in fear simply describes what we were told via the 6th Seal, they will be hiding in caves etc., begging the rocks to fall on them, running from Gid's Judgments while weeping in fear. }}}

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city {THE WHOLE WORLD under Satan}, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning {World is Judged AND burning}, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. 20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

{{{ Her and Great City = Babylon which = this whole evil world as ruled by Satan. }}}

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down {Babylon FALLS and Satan is locked in the pit}, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

{{{ Satan's Kingdom on this Earth is Babylon the Great CONFUSION of the masses. }}}
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
THE FIRST RESURRECTION includes not only the believers from the 7-year period of the tribulations, but also the ones harvested from the 1000-year reign and --for that matter-- every believer from Adam's times (passing throughout the Church Age) all the way to the last one from the 1000-year reign--.
That's impossible. Rev 20:4,5 occcurs WHEN Jesus returns as King. The text is plenty clear enough. And there are NO verses that say or even suggest another resurrection of saved people.

There is only 1. And it occurs when Christ returns.


That's when the first resurrection is fulfilled. And the first fruits of the resurrection TO LIFE is Christ Himself; but each in his own order:

[1Co 15:20, 23 NASB20] 20 But the fact is, Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. ... 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming [including the resurrected from the millennium]
Apparently you don't understand "when He comes" from 1 For 15:23. It doesn't include 1,000 years AFTER He returns.

There is ONE resurrection of the saved. That will occur WHEN He comes as King.

Whereas THE SECOND RESURRECTION is to be equated with THE SECOND DEATH pronounced against the enbelievers:

[Jhn 5:28-29] "Do not be amazed because of this: a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come out: those who did the good to a resurrection of life, those who committed the bad to a resurrection of condemnation.
Right.
 
Dec 8, 2021
76
18
8
Apparently you don't understand "when He comes" from 1 For 15:23. It doesn't include 1,000 years AFTER He returns.

There is ONE resurrection of the saved. That will occur WHEN He comes as King.
That is why I am pointing not only the resurrected ones at His coming, but the resurrection (first resurrection) as a promise being ultimately fulfilled to the last believer from the millennium.
 
Dec 8, 2021
76
18
8
Another point: Undoubtedly the armies of the antichrist will already have taken the mark of the beast. They are unredeemable. Certainly the "mark" would be a requirement to be in that army to begin with...
Not necessarily. But Rather:

Little will have changed regarding Rome’s doctrine of war and subjugation of people. As with Ancient Rome, Enemy combatants that are taken prisoner will be offered a stake in the Futere Beast's empire’s short existence. These will remain alive if they’re willing to face the enemy on the point of the column. This was a human shield used to break the enemies’ formation; and more often than not, resulting in very heavy casualties to the new recruits. http://www.primaryhomeworkhelp.co.uk/romans/auxiliaries.html

The ones that survived more than one of these engagements, could earn the right to become a citizen of Rome; even some becoming famous as a result of their heroism.

https://www.knowtheromans.co.uk/roman-army/roman-auxilia/

These prisoners/slaves will be easily identified, not having the mark of the Beast; but very few of them will survive. These statements make their way into the narrative, in that these prisoners, not having the mark of the beast, will be the human shield starting just outside of Jerusalem, even with an eastern and western column of troops extending to the north, all the way to the Valley of Megiddo; which combined distance of the two is 179 miles.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,304
183
63
That is rather naive.

The Bible says that Satan leads "the whole world astray" and "deceives the whole world".

Neither John nor Paul gave any exceptions.

If "the elect" cannot be deceived, why are there so many DIFFERENT theologies among evangelicals? There should be total unity, yet we are far from that.
He is CORRECT. Reread Matt. 24:24-27, it specifically says it is NO POSSIBLE for the elect to be deceived, I will show you at the bottom of the post.

Which begs the question are they really THE ELECT!! Maybe you are looking at it all wrong.

But, here Jesus tells the Disciples that the end time ELECT can not be deceived by the Anti-Christ ALL BECAUSE, he has warned them BEFOREHAND !!

Matt. 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. {Which means it is NOT POSSIBLE, and Jesus tells us why it is nit possible below, he has FIREWARNED THEM}

25 Behold, I have told you before[hand]. {Now below he EXPLAINS IT ALL in detail}

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. { So, Jesus is telling the Jews here in Matt. 24, who turn to Christ Jesus during the 70th week just before the Anti-Christ Conquers Israel, what to look for, if they say he (Messiah) is in the Desert don't go (laugh at them in private) of they say he's in a secret store room, do not believe it, then below he explains WHY they should not buy into these lies}

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

{{{ So, Jesus tells them in this way, the Two-witnesses will explain it further of course, he saying, don't look for me ANYWHERE on this earth, I am not coming back that way, look for me in the Eastern Skies, then in verse 28 he actually adds in the Eagle is always where the carcass is at, I think that means Armageddon and the Eagle references the fowls of Rev. 19 (Church). So, it is true, the Elect which Jesus is speaking about in the end ties, the Jews who repent can not be deceived, one reason why is they have the Two-witnesses informing them on all things, heck even people on here MIGHT believe Elijah and Moses....:LOL: I said might, whoaa nellie. }}}
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
:coffee::coffee::coffee:



The Parable of the Wheat and tares was about the Jews, we know this because........IF.........they as a nation are blinded until the Rapture, thus this is Jesus, in a parable, telling the Jewish peoples, that they will indeed be like unto the Tares who also go into the tribulation period, thus the Wheat and Tares GROW TOGETHER until the end. Every male Jew had to keep the three feasts every year for a reason, it pointed to Jesus, then the Church Age Rapture, then the Second coming.

Three Yearly Feasts

Exodus 23:14 “Three times each year you must hold a feast to honor me. 15 You must celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the way I commanded you. For seven days you must eat bread that is made without yeast at the set time during the month of Abib, the month when you came out of Egypt. No one is to come to worship me without bringing an offering.

16 “You must celebrate the Feast of Weeks. Offer to God the first things you harvest from the crops you planted in your fields.

“You must celebrate the Feast of Shelters in the fall, when you gather all the crops from your fields.

17 “So three times during every year all your males must come to worship the Lord God.

So, these yearly feast celebration pointed unto these end time events. They celebrated the Barley Harvest, Wheat Harvest and Grape Harvest also, Jesus stated the Wheat will grow with the tares until the very end. We know the Jews must go through the 70th week of Jacobs troubles, so they GROW TOGETHER with the wicked tares until the very end, THEN they will be separated from the tares. We also know that time and again God uses the Wine-press of His Wrath to illustrate how he judges the wicked, but just like the Gentile Rapture is a MYSTERY (Secret by God shutting His mouth) God also doesn't paint the picture of the Gentile Barley, but these same arguments are made against the Church being Raptured Pre Trib, the bible was about the Jews, so anything about the Gentile Church has to be dug out, if the Barley is Harvested first but Jesus told the Jews they were going to grow together with the tares until the very end, that should tell you the Gentile Church is the Barley, if Israel are the Wheat and the wicked get placed in the Wine-press of God's Wrath. I tend to looker at the deeper meaning of these parables then most.


Of course Armageddon is the Marriage Supper.

We are Married to the Lamb in Rev 19, in Heaven, then when we return with Jesus in Rev. 19 we see this:

Rev. 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (Jesus, his heavenly hosts, and the Church/Saints)

Its metaphoric, we are not eating their flesh, but this DEFEAT of the Wicked is our Marriage Supper. We know this by looking at Rev. 19:8-9.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The Bride and Groom stay in the Marriage chambers 7 days (7 Years) then comes the Marriage Supper. Jesus in telling where he will NOT BE to the Jews who are in hiding in Matt. 24, who says don't look for me in the desert or secret chambers, then tells them where they can find him, but it is in a subdued manner, almost in riddle form.

Matt. 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

So, in verse 28 we get a hint that the Church who returns with him are considered fowls, Jesus is basically giving them a hint at where he will indeed be, not in the desert, not in a secret room, but he will come from the Eastern Skies, and wherever the Eagles are at is where the carcass is it means, wherever the Beast and his Armies (dead) are at is where Jesus will be at with his Armies, then in Rev. 19 the Church are called Fowls of Heaven.

Of course the Marriage Supper is Armageddon, in metaphor, we will be FEASTING on the Wicked. We who endured will now get our vengeance just like the Martyrs in Seal #5 were promised.



This comes down to me understanding how the book of Revelation is laid out, only when one understands the Seals DO NOTHING, can they understand the 144,000 are the Fleeing Jews. You see, if the Seals are Judgments then this is all out of whack, but once we understand that the Judgments only start in Rev. 8 with the Trumpets, then we understand that anything before Rev. 8 is BEFORE the 1260 middle of the week, the Jews flee at the 1290, which comes 30 days before the 1260, thus in Rev. 7 it now makes PERFECT SENSE that God via an Angel says HOLD UP THE FOUR WINDS (Judgment) until the 144,000 are sealed. What is God going to say? These are my 4,734, 931? That's not how God works, the EXACT NUMBERS mean nothing, He uses certain numbers to represent Fulness and Completion and whenever He TIMES a number by 10 or 12 or even 7 it's like a MEGAPHONE MEASSGE, He is shouting unto us whenever he uses 7000 (7 x 10 x 10 x 10) or 10,000 x 10,000. He uses 7 eyes and 7 spirits in Revelation to tell us He sees all and is everywhere or omnipotent, God uses the 10 Commandments to represent All His laws in full, he uses 10 Virgin Brides to represent ALL Christendom, even us males :), God uses the 10 Horns and 10 Toes to represent All Europe coming back together in the end times, its not 10 Nations its the current E.U. who has over 25 nations. So, when God uses the numbers 10, 12 and 7 and especially when he TIMES THEM be each other, God is shouting this is COMPLETION !! It is not necessary that you or I know the exact number, but via the way God works in his "Parables" we know God does this so we can understand when hearing, but the world hearing will thus not understand His coming plans.

Thus, in Rev. 7 when God orders the Angel to HURT NOT the Trees, Seas, nor Earth until these 144,000 are Sealed and thus Protected, that means God is ordering the Angels to hold up the coming Trump Judgments which we know HURT the Trees, Earth and the Seas, until the 144,000 (all Jews who are Fleeing after they get saved or SEALED with the Holy Spirit) are Sealed and thus protected in the Petra/Bozrah Area. The fact that they need protection shows they are mere human beings. They need protection from what? The Trumpet Judgments, well, who does God protect in a unique place during the 70th week troubles for 1260 days? The Jews who REPENT (the Holy Spirt is our SEAL). Are they all Male virgins? Well, are the 10 Brides all Virgins? Of course not, we are Virgins in Christ Jesus who has thus made us whole, Jesus would not marry us unless we were "virgins". We thus put off the old and take on the new, we are NEW CREATURES.

Only when we understand who the 144,000 are can we get the actual numbers, we look in Zechariah 13:8-9 and it says very clearly that 1/3 of the Jews will repent, and God will call them His children again, and 2/3 will refuse to repent and thus will perish. Then in the VERY NEXT VERSE (Key...very key) we see that in Zechariah 14:1 the Day of the Lord arrives and Jerusalem/Israel is sacked by the Anti-Christ. So, that tells us the Jews repent JUST BEFORE the coming Day of the Lord. And if the Rev. 8 Trumps are the DOTL Middle of the week (it is) then the Rev. 7, 144,000 Jews who repent and flee Judea, are thus fleeing just before the m=Middle of the week DOTL.

Now, to all those who just can't quite see this, well, it couldn't be any more clearer to me in all honesty, lets add it up, 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completeness) x 10 x 10 (144,000) thus = ALL Israel who repents. Just like the 10 Virgin Brides = ALL Christendom. Thus 1/3 of all people living in Israel now equals about 3 million because 10 million live in Israel. Worldwide there are 15 million Jews, thus 1/3 of that is 5 million. Thus I rightly say the 144,000 are 3-5 million Jews.
1) under all that they would not be firstfruits
2) they are ONLY 144k. Vividy expressed as a total of 12k x12.
144k is a number. A total.
So no they are not in any way 3 million.

All that other dialogue about armageddon is far fetched.

( needing us to feast on the carcasses of the wicked and calling that the marriage supper.)

Huh?
 
Dec 8, 2021
76
18
8
VCO ....a member here, has extensive posts in another thread about the rcc being the whore.
I think he got his info from dave hunt's book " A Woman Rides the Beast"....not sure though
There's still remains enough literary work, both secular and Christian, that attests to the real identity of the self-proclaimed "Mother Church" throughout her ages.​

Even some of her own historians have recorded her murderous activities in her unquenchable thirst for power. I know you are aware of her treacherous behavior when she was riding her military beast during the Age of Discovery.​

But it's been God Himself who's provided us with the full picture of not only her past and present, but her future as well​

[Rev 17:1-2 NASB95] 1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying, "Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed [acts of] immorality, and those who dwell on the earth were made drunk with the wine of her immorality."

[Rev 18:2, 21 NASB95] 2 And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. ... 21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.
 
Dec 8, 2021
76
18
8
Not sure of hyour point here. But receiving a glorified body isn't about going to heaven.
The sentence above was bolded by me; and here's a reply:


[Phl 3:20-21 NASB20] 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our lowly condition into conformity with His glorious body, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
 
Dec 8, 2021
76
18
8

Every account is different because the RCC Switched the Six Seal and 6th Trumpet; making it appear as though Israel/Jerusalem was destroyed Rather than Vatican City / Headquarters / Babylon the Great "who sits on many waters". The "Iron and the clay"
TYPO ERROR

Just a reminder: since the last week, it was already made clear that in the phrase "Switched the six[th] and 6th Trumpet," the word "Trumpet" should rather read "Bowl," as follows:​

"...Switched the Sixth Seal and the Sixth BOWL of wrath"

 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
That is why I am pointing not only the resurrected ones at His coming, but the resurrection (first resurrection) as a promise being ultimately fulfilled to the last believer from the millennium.

The first resurrection is over before the thousand years even begins.
 
Dec 8, 2021
76
18
8
"the RCC Switched the Six Seal and 6th Trumpet"

You would have to provide supporting manuscript evidence to validate your claim. It all of my years I've never heard of this being a problem. Furthermore, In terms of flow and logic, the sixth trumpet follows the fifth trumpet perfectly IMO. I really don't see any problem there.

TYPO ERROR

Just a reminder: since the last week, it was already pointed at, made clear and agreed upon, that in the phrase

"Switched the six[th] and 6th Trumpet,"

the word "Trumpet" should rather read "Bowl," as follows:

"...Switched the Sixth Seal and the Sixth BOWL of wrath"​

And below are a couple of links as proof of the correction made in this phorum:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...top-causing-fear.199566/page-107#post-4731582

(As per this link below, there's additional information reinforcing the switching of the sixes
(the 6th seal and the 6th bowl of wrath)

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...top-causing-fear.199566/page-107#post-4731582
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
No one switched either of those.


TYPO ERROR

Just a reminder: since the last week, it was already pointed at, made clear and agreed upon, that in the phrase

"Switched the six[th] and 6th Trumpet,"

the word "Trumpet" should rather read "Bowl," as follows:

"...Switched the Sixth Seal and the Sixth BOWL of wrath"​

And below are a couple of links as proof of the correction made in this phorum:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...top-causing-fear.199566/page-107#post-4731582

(As per this link below, there's additional information reinforcing the switching of the sixes
(the 6th seal and the 6th bowl of wrath)

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...top-causing-fear.199566/page-107#post-4731582
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,619
113
TYPO ERROR

Just a reminder: since the last week, it was already pointed at, made clear and agreed upon, that in the phrase

"Switched the six[th] and 6th Trumpet,"

the word "Trumpet" should rather read "Bowl," as follows:

"...Switched the Sixth Seal and the Sixth BOWL of wrath"​

And below are a couple of links as proof of the correction made in this phorum:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...top-causing-fear.199566/page-107#post-4731582

(As per this link below, there's additional information reinforcing the switching of the sixes
(the 6th seal and the 6th bowl of wrath)

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...top-causing-fear.199566/page-107#post-4731582
Okay thanks. But the question remains you need to provide some solid documentary manuscript evidence to back up your assertions.
 
May 22, 2020
2,382
358
83
The sun is the source of most life on the Earth so you think hell gives the world life?

I cannot agree.
You must be kidding......There is nothing more powerful than God the father and Jesus the Son.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
You must be kidding......There is nothing more powerful than God the father and Jesus the Son.

I'm not talking about Trinity. It is a fact that Sun makes life possible on Earth and of course God created Sun. There is no way Sun can he hell now or in future as it is still existing and shining upon Earth even in eternity. There are also scriptures that speak of Sun lasting forever.

Hell/the lake of fire is not the Sun.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
Since there will still be sin and, therefore, death during the Millennium,

Won't the believers from that time be resurrected?

Actually, it is assumption there is sin or death or resurrections during the thousand years. We have no idea because scripture does not address those things for that time period.
 
Nov 17, 2017
595
409
63
Another point: Undoubtedly the armies of the antichrist will already have taken the mark of the beast. They are unredeemable. Certainly the "mark" would be a requirement to be in that army to begin with...
200,000,000 man demonic super soldier army.........