Jesus Came To Fulfill Not To Destroy

[Phoneman-777]

Again you missed the whole point of that passage
The author did nto say you have ceased fro your work on the seventh day then start working again. He said he has ceased from his work. God ceased from his work. His creation was complete. Nothing else needed to be done.

All throughout the passage of Hebrews 4, the word "rest" is the Greek "kataposis", but when we get to verse 9, do you know what it is? "SABBATISMOS" We cannot escape it, no matter how unwelcome a truth it is.

That's why Lamsa translated the verse correctly, "It is therefore the duty of the people of God to KEEP THE SABBATH (of the Ten Commandments) and the kind of rest that is our duty is "literal" rest -- because verse 10 says we're to rest in the exact same manner God rested on the seventh day, which had nothing to do with "resting from trying to earn salvation". His rest was literal rest from literal labor.

 

[Phoneman-777]

God didn't rest every 7th day.

He rested just the once. He was still resting on day 8 and 9. And 14.

So you need to figure out "as God did from His" because a literal repeating saturday rest isn't it. It seems like it is right to the person who thinks he is obeying the 10 commandments. For we know the Law is spiritual... Romans 7:14

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


What exactly is this rest that the Lord Jesus gives? Only for saturdays?

What does God's itinerary have to do with us? I don't care if heavenly Sabbath is filled with the noise of framing guns and compound miter saws cutting 2X4s for our mansions - He commands US to rest on Sabbath.

BTW, Isaiah says "from one Sabbath to another" we're gonna eternally worship before God, so it stands to reason He's going to be resting along with us, right or wrong?

 

[Jocund]

Did the person Jesus spoke to keep the commandments?

If he did, He did not need Christ.

There are two choices

1. Obey the law (requires perfection. Not one sin)
2. Faith in God

Abraham and others chose faith in God. Even David said sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire. He understood the law was good and perfect. But could not save him

Anything that does not come from faith is sin. To follow OT law in contradiction to one's faith is sinful.

"[E]verything that does not come from faith is sin" - Romans 14:23b NIV

 

[Phoneman-777]

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

How can it be the duty of Christians to work at the 10 commandments when we are told NOT to be entangled AGAIN with the yoke of bondage?


You understand that you contradict scripture with your philosophy? You think Christianity is just Judaism-lite? Work at commandments minus animal sacrifice and feasts?

1 Timothy 1:5-7
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.


Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Yes, Paul had to tell the Galatians to take off that "yoke of bondage" of trying earn salvation by works. Know what Paul tells saved people to do after we get saved?

"Let him who stole steal no more".

​

How dare he put us under that "yoke of bondage", right?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Anything that does not come from faith is sin. To follow OT law in contradiction to one's faith is sinful.

"[E]verything that does not come from faith is sin" - Romans 14:23b NIV

What about following the New Testament "Law of Liberty" which contains "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not commit adultery"? That "Law of Liberty" sounds a bit like the Ten Commandments, don't it?

Nobody has a problem with "no gods before Me", "no idolatry", "no stealing", "no blasphemy", etc. Just that one. The only one that begins with "remember" everybody says we're supposed to forget. Amazing!

 

[oyster67]

Jesus Came To Fulfill Not To Destroy



The verse you have referred to in your OP is talking about the OT Law. Good to quote complete verses...

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[oyster67]

That "Law of Liberty" sounds a bit like the Ten Commandments, don't it?

It is actually just two...

Matthew
22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Anything that does not come from faith is sin. To follow OT law in contradiction to one's faith is sinful.

"[E]verything that does not come from faith is sin" - Romans 14:23b NIV

Mind if I ask what this has to do with what I said?

as for following the OT law. I can follow every precept. And still not be righteous. Because it does not have the capability to show me every possible sin I can commit.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"It is therefore the duty of the people of God (Christians) to keep the Sabbath (Fourth of the Ten Commandments). For he (the Christian) that has entered into His (Jesus') rest, he (the Christian) hath ceased from his own works (physical labor) as God did from His (physical labor of Creation)."

Surely you don't have anything against the "reasonable service" of Christian duty?

You seem to be confused.

How is resting on 1 day and working the next 6 entering rest?

The passage says he has ceased ( Gk Katapauto - To stop. To cease, to put to an end, to complete, to hinder, to put to rest) from his work

it does not say he takes a break from his work for a day then starts up again, It says he has put to an end or stopped or ceased from his works.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Sorry, I missed the question. The Bible does teach the grace-saved, blood-washed, born-again, child of God can throw away the gift of eternal life by ceasing to "abide in the Vine" and instead start down a non-capitulating path of "Not Thy will, but MY will be done".

Ahh

So it is as I thought.

You believe we start in the spirit. But must perfect our salvation in the flesh by working hard not to fall into sin or whatever you think can cause God to let go of us.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

All throughout the passage of Hebrews 4, the word "rest" is the Greek "kataposis", but when we get to verse 9, do you know what it is? "SABBATISMOS" We cannot escape it, no matter how unwelcome a truth it is.

That's why Lamsa translated the verse correctly, "It is therefore the duty of the people of God to KEEP THE SABBATH (of the Ten Commandments) and the kind of rest that is our duty is "literal" rest -- because verse 10 says we're to rest in the exact same manner God rested on the seventh day, which had nothing to do with "resting from trying to earn salvation". His rest was literal rest from literal labor.

Yet the author says we have ceased fro our work. Yet your demanding he says we continue our work (at the law}
can you explain how this makes sense?

Again, The author did not tell us to take a BREAK from our work (a 7th day rest period before we start up again) he say they HAVE CEASED from their work.

The 7th day sabbath is a DAY of rest.

then there is resting from the work (of the law)

Hebrews is speaking of rest from the law Not temporary rest for everyday work.

 

[Grandpa]

What does God's itinerary have to do with us? I don't care if heavenly Sabbath is filled with the noise of framing guns and compound miter saws cutting 2X4s for our mansions - He commands US to rest on Sabbath.

Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

God didn't rest only on saturday. He didn't start back up and then rest the next saturday. Trying to fit Hebrews 4 into working at the Commandments is a Gross Conceptual Error. It is a contradiction of Christianity and scripture.

 

[Grandpa]

Yes, Paul had to tell the Galatians to take off that "yoke of bondage" of trying earn salvation by works. Know what Paul tells saved people to do after we get saved?

"Let him who stole steal no more".

​

How dare he put us under that "yoke of bondage", right?

That wasn't the yoke of bondage. That is you twisting scripture to JUSTIFY yourself at working at commandments.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


This yoke wasn't "earning salvation by works". This yoke was working at the commandments.


There is no such thing as earning salvation by works. And because there is no such thing as earning salvation by works there is conversely no such thing as losing salvation by works, or lack therof.

Salvation is not from you or what you do. That's the point all the dummies have a hard time with (I include myself in that statement). Salvation is from the Lord. Every blessing we have is from the Lord. We are not owed any blessing because we have worked for it. Our work falls woefully short.

That's why working at the Commandments makes no sense after we have come to Christ. The Lord GIVES us much better blessings than we can earn ourselves from our supposed "obedience" or works of "righteousness".

The Lord gives us obedience. Otherwise we will not have it.
The Lord gives us Righteousness. Otherwise we will not have it.
The Lord gives us Salvation. Otherwise we will not have it.

Do you see the pattern?

The Lord gives us Rest. Otherwise we will not have it.

Pretending we are following commandments to "obey" a sabbath is NOT Rest.

 

[Isaskar]

This topic comes up from time to time. The OT laws can apply, but they don't necessarily apply to every Christian. Paul covers this topic in some depth.

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" - Col 2:14 KJV

It's not a case of the jots and tittles just disappearing, they are just covered by an equivalency as is a prevalent theme even in the OT. That said, some OT commandments are reiterated in some form in the new covenant. Even those individuals that state that the OT laws don't apply aren't say that the ten Mosaic laws don't apply because they too each reappear in some form in the NT.

More often than not, I've found that people that perceive the OT laws to be mandatory have spent more time reading the OT rather than thoroughly reading the NT.

Does physical circumcision apply as a rule? Do the dietary laws apply as a rule? Do the uncleanliness rules in the OT apply? The NT covers these topics with a clear answer: "No, not as they appear in the OT"

I've seen funny responses to the circumcision commandments, "that's covered by a spiritual circumcision now instead of a physical one" to try to address Paul stating that circumcision doesn't matter. The irony is that this is an example of equivalency, and another type of equivalency is that Christ fulfils the law.

I also haven't seen great examples of rules that people thought should apply universally from the OT that didn't also appear in the NT.

I'm convinced that the proposition "OT laws necessarily apply to all Christians" is not an internally consistent position. I would happily be proven wrong but I don't see how the perceived inconsistencies could possibly be addressed.

I agree. What I believe is, we should follow the OT commandments that the New Testament says apply to us. For example, of the 10 commandments, all of them are listed except for the Sabbath. That leads me to believe they are still binding in the New Covenant. (Romans 13:9 etc)

In other words: Should we steal today? Is stealing permissable for a Christian? No. Because the New Testament forbids it. Should we eat a kangaroo steak today? Not necessarily, but it is NOT forbidden to do so in the New Covenant.

 

[Ogom]

Yet the author says we have ceased fro our work. Yet your demanding he says we continue our work (at the law}
can you explain how this makes sense?

Again, The author did not tell us to take a BREAK from our work (a 7th day rest period before we start up again) he say they HAVE CEASED from their work.

The 7th day sabbath is a DAY of rest.

then there is resting from the work (of the law)

Hebrews is speaking of rest from the law Not temporary rest for everyday work.

yes, the rest from the Law is when one has overcome all things contrary to the Laws of God (anything non Christ-like) and rests at peace (each time that we are able to, and overcome ) -- then comes a rest. you may have noticed this in your life -- as you listen to the Spirit and to God -- in all the ways that He speaks to us each day (as we are able to hear from and listening) -- and when we repent, and overcome.

if we have not completely entered God's real and complete rest (from all non- Christ-like ness) in our lives yet, then the shadows can help to remind and to show us the Way -- week after week - a rememberence and cessation of work - and help us to get our priorities right and minds and hearts right before God again.

when we remember the commandments -- we are blessed. though one can view things one way and another another different way -- these kinds of things can help us on the road to Christ (which is a complete rest from all our own ways - a complete and total following of God - i.e. rest from Self and from anyrhing not of - Spirit /God).

 

[Grandpa]

I agree. What I believe is, we should follow the OT commandments that the New Testament says apply to us. For example, of the 10 commandments, all of them are listed except for the Sabbath. That leads me to believe they are still binding in the New Covenant. (Romans 13:9 etc)

In other words: Should we steal today? Is stealing permissable for a Christian? No. Because the New Testament forbids it. Should we eat a kangaroo steak today? Not necessarily, but it is NOT forbidden to do so in the New Covenant.

2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

If you had the capability of following OT commandments then the Lord Jesus wouldn't have had to sacrifice Himself on the Cross.

He could have just sent another prophet to tell the people to repent and follow the commandments.


2 Corinthians 3:6-8
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?



Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

How can you be dead to the law if you are cherry picking what you think you should follow in the law and what you shouldn't? That's exactly what the Pharisees did.



Conversely you are not dead to the law and alive to God if you are stealing, murdering, worshipping idols, etc...

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

That's hard to do, isn't it?

 

[Isaskar]

2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

If you had the capability of following OT commandments then the Lord Jesus wouldn't have had to sacrifice Himself on the Cross.

He could have just sent another prophet to tell the people to repent and follow the commandments.


2 Corinthians 3:6-8
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?



Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

How can you be dead to the law if you are cherry picking what you think you should follow in the law and what you shouldn't? That's exactly what the Pharisees did.



Conversely you are not dead to the law and alive to God if you are stealing, murdering, worshipping idols, etc...

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

That's hard to do, isn't it?

Did you respond to the wrong message? I am not talking about picking and choosing, I said we should simply do what the New Testament commands us to do. And it just so happens that some of the things like Thou shalt not steal, is a commandment in the new covenant as well.

Is the new testament also "law" to you? Weird guy.

 

[TMS]

Anything that does not come from faith is sin. To follow OT law in contradiction to one's faith is sinful.

"[E]verything that does not come from faith is sin" - Romans 14:23b NIV

If you comprehend the OT law correctly it will not be against your faith. I believe in not stealing and killing. By faith i delight to keep the Ten commandments. It is presumption to believe the royal law was made void. Stealing and adultery and killing and lying are all OT laws so are they a contradiction to your faith to follow them?

 

[TMS]

I agree. What I believe is, we should follow the OT commandments that the New Testament says apply to us. For example, of the 10 commandments, all of them are listed except for the Sabbath. That leads me to believe they are still binding in the New Covenant. (Romans 13:9 etc)

The Sabbath is in the new testament
Heb 4.. and when the Ten commandments are referred to they do not remove the the sabbath.
Jesus did not remove the sabbath before he died and a covenant must be set up before the death of the person. (like a will)
There is no place in the new testament that tells us to stop keeping the Sabbath holy or that tells us to change the holy day. If God made it holy and asked us to keep it, it needs to be seen that we are not required to keep it. God would have made it plan.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit, adultery said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

 

[Jocund]

If you comprehend the OT law correctly it will not be against your faith. I believe in not stealing and killing. By faith i delight to keep the Ten commandments. It is presumption to believe the royal law was made void. Stealing and adultery and killing and lying are all OT laws so are they a contradiction to your faith to follow them?

I don't think anyone here claimed that the law was made void. It's impossible to have an honest conversation unless proponents of your position accept that fact. The law is fulfilled through equivalency.

One person's faith may lead them to feel that circumcision is necessary and another's faith leads to them to see that circumcision is unnecessary. One person's faith may lead them to find crickets to be unfit to eat and another's faith may lead them to find crickets to be fit to eat. The case of what ends up being the right answer will differ between individuals for some things.

Other things in the new covenant are explicit, such as on the topics of theft, adultery, murder, etc. Some subjects are intentionally relative to a person's faith. It might be perfectly fine for John by the river to eat a bucket of crickets but not for you. That's wonderful that your faith has led you to a specific interpretation of the Mosaic ten commandments, but you have to understand that it is only the provisions of the new covenant that necessarily apply to all Christians.

I don't agree with your interpretation of what the royal law is. The royal law clearly is not talking about the Mosaic commandments.