Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?

[Phoneman-777]

This is very imaginative but totally unbiblical. All you have to do is read the narrative about the Rich Man and Lazarus, then do some research on Sheol/Hades. Then read the narrative about Stephen, and go back to square one.

Nothing imaginative about chiasms, bro. It's a thing. BTW, isn't it interesting that when Jesus spoke of the "hell" in which the Rich Man lifted up his eyes, He didn't use the fiery, burning, blazing "hell" of the Greek "Gehenna", but curiously used "hades"??? Sure it is!!!

Also, if the Rich Man and Lazarus is literal:

• the righteous get carried away to Abraham's bosom so everyone we've seen buried at funerals is going to hell
• the righteous dead ain't in heaven, they're in Abraham's literal bosom
• Abraham's literal bosom is 100 literal square miles in order to accommodate all them dead
• people totally engulfed in flame can carry on an intelligent conversation, no prob
• one drop of water can cool the tongue of a dude completely engulfed in flame, no prob
• Paul lied saying we get our immortal bodies "at the last trump" - because we get new tongues, eyes, and fingers even before the worms finish feasting on our old tongues, eyes, and fingers efore the worms can get at our old tongues, eyes, and fingers

 

[Phoneman-777]

The preponderance of the evidence makes your case weak. Cherry picking verses instead of using ALL of Scripture, along with looking at the bigger picture is where the truth lies.

Sorry, but the preponderance is on my side. You guys only have about 5 or six "proof" texts which any honest scholar must admit are not proof at all.

Why you refuse to admit you wrong about saying that Solomon said dead people are "happy" when I showed you what Solomon said is that he's happy about them? Don't just run away: admit your error, please.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Yes, I agree. There are plenty of DEAD who surely will die. I also understand that the DEAD, be they walking around in the flesh or their dead flesh having been gone back to dust don't KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT LIFE AKA THE LORD.

Luke 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luke 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.


I believe the 'perception' of what is being said is where our beliefs differ here. I am familiar with and have this knowledge but would grow from there and so to did this I also believe...

Ecclesiastes 9:1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

Ecclesiastes 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

DEATH is coming to us all. But what happens on that last day of this flesh life?
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
ALL flesh goes back to dirt and the spirit returns to God but our WORKS DO FOLLOW US.

Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

BUT upon death of the FLESH, the 'spirit' of the dead go onto the dead and the 'spirit of the living' go to the living.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

While we are still alive and walking upon this earth, we still have a CHANCE to come to salvation. ONCE that moment has passed, it is past forever and the only thing we have is our works WHICH do follow us whether the be 'live or dead' works.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

AGAIN, once the last breath has been taken, there are no more good WORKS that can be done, but hopefully the living have done lots before then and the 'dead', those who never came to understanding, perish. Blotted out. No memory of them forever. It will be as if they had never been.

Ecclesiastes 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

No reincarnation. No do overs. We have this one chance to get it right.

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works.

So GO BE HAPPY and full of joy and WORK THOSE WORKS THAT FOLLOW US because the very last day for doing them in the flesh is coming to a close and that is the end of it.

Ecclesiastes 9:8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment.

Stay in the WORD.

Ecclesiastes 9:9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Ecclesiastes 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.

Is today the last day to gather 'good works' or is there another? Since we don't know, we should act accordingly.

If we want to learn whether the word "dead" in Ecclessiastes 9:5 KJV refers to those "spiritually" or "literally" dead, all we have to do is refer to verse 4 for the context:

"For a living dog is better than a dead lion."​

​

Now, unless we're going to argue that lions and dogs need Sarah MacLaughlin to be their spiritual high priestess intercessor, we have to concede that Ecc. 9:5 KJV is talking about LITERAL death - and all who have literally died, whether righteous or wicked, "know not anything".

 

[Sipsey]

Sorry, but the preponderance is on my side. You guys only have about 5 or six "proof" texts which any honest scholar must admit are not proof at all.

Why you refuse to admit you wrong about saying that Solomon said dead people are "happy" when I showed you what Solomon said is that he's happy about them? Don't just run away: admit your error, please.

Your confusion is not shared by myself, be content in your beliefs.

 

[kleronomos]

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

If we want to learn whether the word "dead" in Ecclessiastes 9:5 KJV refers to those "spiritually" or "literally" dead, all we have to do is refer to verse 4 for the context:

"For a living dog is better than a dead lion."​

​

Now, unless we're going to argue that lions and dogs need Sarah MacLaughlin to be their spiritual high priestess intercessor, we have to concede that Ecc. 9:5 KJV is talking about LITERAL death - and all who have literally died, whether righteous or wicked, "know not anything".

We are with different understandings. I respectively now, bow out

 

[Nehemiah6]

BTW, isn't it interesting that when Jesus spoke of the "hell" in which the Rich Man lifted up his eyes, He didn't use the fiery, burning, blazing "hell" of the Greek "Gehenna", but curiously used "hades"???

That was a mistake made by the translators of the KJV. The Greek word Hades should have simply been transliterated in that verse. But the real issue is that you have ignored Sheol/Hades altogether.

καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοις ὁρᾷ τὸν Ἀβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ
New American Standard Bible
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

So souls and spirits do not disappear upon death, neither do they remain six feet under. And when you take that into account the whole teaching on the afterlife changes. Also, this incident occurred BEFORE the resurrection of Christ. After His resurrection, the righteous dead go directly to Heaven.

 

[Phoneman-777]

The preponderance of the evidence makes your case weak. Cherry picking verses instead of using ALL of Scripture, along with looking at the bigger picture is where the truth lies.

I do use all of Scripture, and explain the one two three four five "proof" text that the "surely not die" crowd attempts to use to substantiate their view.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Your confusion is not shared by myself, be content in your beliefs.

You said that Solomon said the dead of chapter 9 were "happy", and thus must be alive and conscious, did you not? (BTW, if he said thus, I would abandon my position in a heartbeat)
So, pease, chapter and verse?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved



We are with different understandings. I respectively now, bow out

Be that as it may, thank you for your thoughts. As far as "spiritual death" is concerned, the Bible never puts that in the future tense. When it speaks of 'spiritual death" it puts it in the present tense:

"But she (or he) that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV

 

[Phoneman-777]

That was a mistake made by the translators of the KJV. The Greek word Hades should have simply been transliterated in that verse. But the real issue is that you have ignored Sheol/Hades altogether.

καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοις ὁρᾷ τὸν Ἀβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ
New American Standard Bible
"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

My point is that while Jesus said the Rich Man was in torment, He specifically didn't say he was in "hellfire" which is "Gehenna" - so, the "flames of torment" were a symbol for another kind of torment, namely the torment that would befall the Jews for failing to accept their Messiah, though they could have easily recognized Him by reading "Moses and the prophets".

So souls and spirits do not disappear upon death, neither do they remain six feet under.

Do you believe Ecclesiastes 12 :7? It says the "spirit shall return to God Who gave it"; when Jesus died, His spirit went to back to God. When Stephen died, his spirit went back to God.

Question: If you switch off electric current flowing through a light bulb, does the light continue shining on another plane of existence, or does the light cease to be?

Likewise, the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and when the Breath returns to God, and the Body returns to the Earth, its NO MORE POSSIBLE for the Soul to continue existing on another place of existence than it is for that light to continue to do so once that switch is flipped off.

And when you take that into account the whole teaching on the afterlife changes.

Nothing about the afterlife changed after the Cross. David is still in his tomb dead and his own son, the wisest man who ever lived, said David has no knowledge, wisdom, emotions, praise for God, ability to lay plans, or anything else. He's going to wait in his tomb just as Job said he would until Jesus "enemies are made Thy footstool" which ain't happened yet - not until the Second Coming when He will "destroy them with the brightness of His coming".

 

[kleronomos]

Be that as it may, thank you for your thoughts. As far as "spiritual death" is concerned, the Bible never puts that in the future tense. When it speaks of 'spiritual death" it puts it in the present tense:

"But she (or he) that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV

Let the dead bury the dead

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Let the dead bury the dead

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Yup, both resurrections are separated by the 1,000 years, the first at the second coming, and the next after the 1,000 years. At that time, the wicked are resurrected, judged, condemned, and cast into the Lake of Fire which will commence at that time when "fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them all". Hellfire is not burning right now:

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the Godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9 KJV​

 

[oyster67]

Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?


Revelations 19 is the place where we learn that they will be arrayed in fine white linen of the Saints, be married to King Jesus, and then return to reign with Him on Earth for 1000 years.

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 Teach Jesus Will Return With Dead Saints Now With Him In Heaven?


Revelations 19 is the place where we learn that they will be arrayed in fine white linen of the Saints, be married to King Jesus, and then return to reign with Him on Earth for 1000 years.

Revelation
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

I know, but so many people think Jesus is coming back with disembodied saints, that went to heaven at death, for a "Celestial Runway Fashion Show" where they'll put on a new custom tailored body and prance around like male peacocks during mating season, and that somehow is what the "hope of the resurrection" is supposed to be all about

I always ask these folks to explain if the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal story, how in blue blazes do they have their eternal bodies already when the "Celestial Runway Fashion Show" hasn't even happened yet, because Rich Man had eyes to look up and a tongue to taste a drop and a mouth to petition Abraham and ears to hear what he says, and a face that Abraham can recognize, and Abraham has a mouth and ears and a face that the Rich Man recognizes, and Lazarus had fingers to dip in water and legs to journey to the five brothers, etc....but I never get an answer.

 

[oyster67]

I know, but so many people think Jesus is coming back with disembodied saints, that went to heaven at death, for a "Celestial Runway Fashion Show" where they'll put on a new custom tailored body and prance around like male peacocks during mating season, and that somehow is what the "hope of the resurrection" is supposed to be all about

Sure!

I do say that I hope to do a bit of prancing around in my glorified peacock body myself.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[Evmur]

Sure!

I do say that I hope to do a bit of prancing around in my glorified peacock body myself.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Some of us of the more disorderly sort are already prancing ...

...lewd fellows of the baser sort.

 

[posthuman]

Hmmm...the dead are simultaneously alive?

why would that surprise you? have you never read Romans 6? we should expect that, not scoff at it.
know the difference between your carnal human definitions of life and death and God's definitions.

Luke 16:19-31 is the Truth, not a pack of lies. if you disagree with Christ, you are the liar writing myths, not Him.

 

[kleronomos]

I know, but so many people think Jesus is coming back with disembodied saints, that went to heaven at death, for a "Celestial Runway Fashion Show" where they'll put on a new custom tailored body and prance around like male peacocks during mating season, and that somehow is what the "hope of the resurrection" is supposed to be all about

I always ask these folks to explain if the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal story, how in blue blazes do they have their eternal bodies already when the "Celestial Runway Fashion Show" hasn't even happened yet, because Rich Man had eyes to look up and a tongue to taste a drop and a mouth to petition Abraham and ears to hear what he says, and a face that Abraham can recognize, and Abraham has a mouth and ears and a face that the Rich Man recognizes, and Lazarus had fingers to dip in water and legs to journey to the five brothers, etc....but I never get an answer.

I don't know if this answers the question for you but it does me.

Matthew 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know,


and the way ye know. (I DO, I just don't know how everyone doesn't)


John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

 

[kleronomos]

I don't know if this answers the question for you but it does me.

Matthew 22:28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Matthew 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:4 And whither I go ye know,


and the way ye know. (I DO, I just don't know how everyone doesn't)


John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.

Apparently coming back in for another dance...


2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[kleronomos]

Apparently coming back in for another dance...


2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

2Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2Corinthians 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

2Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2Corinthians 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

1Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.