WHO WROTE THE BIBLE?

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
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#41
So who made the determination?
You were already told who made the determination. So just to be crystal clear here is your answer:
1. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself (for the entire Hebrew Tanakh -- 24 books or the OT)
2. The Holy Spirit through the apostle Simon Peter ( over half the NT in Paul's epistles)
3. Internal evidence of the writers themselves (e.g. the Gospel of Luke and some others)
4. Faithful Christians led by the Holy Spirit (a few books in the NT)

So in essence it was God Himself who determined which books should be in the Bible. Those 66 books in the Protestant Bibles are the "canon" of Scripture, All the apocryphal books in the Catholic and Orthodox bibles are NOT Scripture.

The 39 books of the OT are in fact the 24 books of the Hebrew Tanakh, but have been split up and arranged differently. Christ summed them up as (1) the Law of Moses (5 books), (2) the Prophets (8 books), and (3) the Psalms (or Writings which begin with the book of Psalms -- 11 books).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
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#42
@John146 , another example we can find is in the translation of Genesis 2:7.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Once again, the translators decided to take a plural word and translate it as singular. As a general rule, if God intends for a word to be singular or plural, we should not take it upon ourselves (unless we have ample biblical justification) to change a plural word to a singular word and vice versa. We learn this here:

Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


The only time I have seen ample biblical (not logical) justification was when it came to translating the word "Elohim" which is a plural word, but the scriptures make it abundantly clear that Elohim is ONE God.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV 1900)
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God (Elohim) is one Lord:


Now, in Genesis 2:7, the translators translated the plural Hebrew word for "lives" as a singular word "life". They did this quite frequently actually. The verse should read:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of LIVES;

But this (like Matthew 28:1) doesn't make a lot of sense. At least not until you search it out further and relaize that not only does God use this phrase with human beings, but also with animals (even just one animal).

Genesis 7:15 (KJV)
And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of LIVES (not "life"). (here, multiple animals are in view).

Exodus 22:4 (KJV)
If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive (or, HAVING LIVES), whether it be ox, OR ass, OR sheep; he shall restore double. (single animal is in view here, but same word "lives")

So, the words “lives” has nothing to do with a quantity of animals or people in a particular context, but it has everything to do with the one who gives the life. It has everything to do with God.

Psalm 36:9 (KJV)
For with thee (meaning with God) For with thee is the fountain of LIVES (not life): in thy light shall we see light.

So, the word “lives” describes who God is, the same way that the word “GOD” itself (Elohim) is a plural word describing one God in three deities.

1 Samuel 17:36 (KJV)
Thy servant slew both the lion and the bear: and this uncircumcised Philistine shall be as one of them, seeing he hath defied the armies of the living God.

Just like all the verses I listed above are incorrectly translated as singular words when they are in fact plural, the phrase in 1 Samuel 17:36, "the living God", is also translated incorrectly. It should read, "...the armies of the God of LIVES). It is only when we take the time to correct the translations, that we begin to notice an abundance of spiritual truth come forth. And it seems like God allowed these errors for 2 reasons that I could see (there may be more). The first is so that we don't place our trust in something that isn't inspired by God, like any translation, but only in the preserved Word of God. And the second, is because God tells us that he conceals words in order that his people would search them out. And knowing that translations done by imperfect people would naturally contain errors such as these, was a perfect way for God to accomplish that and lead us back to his original writings to confirm or correct any word.

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV 1900)
It is the glory of God to conceal a THING (dabar): But the honour of kings is to search out a MATTER (dabbar).


The word "thing" and "matter" are the exact same Hebrew words most commonly translated as "WORD".

Proverbs 25:2 (KJV 1900)
It is the glory of God to conceal a WORD: But the honour of kings is to search out a WORD.
Thanks for your opinions, I’m sticking with the KJV as the word of God holy, pure, and preserved for us today.
 
Dec 22, 2021
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#43
Thank you for your reply, however, if we're to be led only by the truth and examples set forth by the scriptures, how many people do you know that have taken the time to examine the writing style of Tertius for the book of Romans? None that I know of, he was merely a scribe as Paul dictated to him what words to write. Well, God is teaching us that His Word was written in the same exact way. Whatever Moses wrote, or Jeremiah or Paul, etc were the exact words given to them by God. We have Plenty of examples of this taking place, but not one of the scribes (like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John or Paul) inserting their own wording into the scriptures.

Jeremiah 30:1–2 (KJV 1900)
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I HAVE SPOKEN unto thee in a book.

What they spake were the very words breathed from the mouth of God and never their own. God teaches us this principle with the 10 commandments which represent the complete word of God (10, 100, 1,000 in the Bible is used to represent completeness of whatever is in view). And God takes complete credit for writing it.

Exodus 32:16 (KJV 1900)
16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.

This is why trying to study what each man was like is really a waste of time (no offence) because you are relying on sources outside of the scriptures to do so. In other words, you're relying on corrupted texts when compared with the Word of God. Therefore, a corrupted text cannot shed light on an incorrupted one.


Romans 3:4 (KJV 1900)
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I hope you find this helpful.
Hi Eddie! I've noticed in these various posts that we all seem to be talking past each other at times and not understanding the perspective of the other. Let me give an example out of my past experience that I imagine you and others can identify with. In years before the Internet, I began to write prisoners through Chuck Colson's Prison Fellowship program. It did not take long in reading letters from prisoners to realize, using a dictionary to follow the thought of the guy would take me only so far. It took time to learn the words and phrases used uniquely by an inmate so I could understand him. Of course in Bible study and seeking to learn from the original languages and helps, it is not that complicated in the same way; but I found the same principle holds. When studying an epistle of the Apostle Paul, I do a word study on a word or particular phrasing as is used in all his epistles, and in the comparisons noticing the context. I think that is just basic common sense.
 
Dec 22, 2021
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#44
THE FOLLOWING , USING TRANSLATIONS, IS IMPORTANT IN STUDYING GOD'S WORD, AND I FOLLOW WITH AN EXAMPLE.

From An Introduction to the Revised Standard Version of the Old Testament, page 14:
"A recent speaker has told of a project to issue 'a theologically conservative translation of the Bible.' Doubtless this is an appealing undertaking in the eyes of many. But the fact must be stressed that there is no place for theology in Bible translation, whether conservative or radical or whatever else. A 'theological translation' is not a translation at all, but merely a dogmatic perversion of the Bible. Linguistic science knows no theology; those of most contradictory views can meet on common ground devoid of polemic, agreed that Hebrew words mean such and such, and their inflection and syntactical relations imply this or that. These facts establish an agreed translation. Then, and then only, may the exegete and dogmatist busy himself with theological deductions from the thoughts of the Biblical writers."
https://ia903104.us.archive.org/13/items/introductiontore00inte/introductiontore00inte.pdf

In the following, a review over time of a particular phrase in differing translations of Exodus 21:22 -

Septuagint (2C BC) "child be born imperfectly formed(versus)it be perfectly formed"
The Peshitta(2C AD) "she miscarries, and yet no mischief follow" (Aramaic)
Wycliffe(1395) "the child dead-born, but the woman liveth" (Eng. of the Vulgate)
Tyndale(1534) "her fruit depart from her and yet no misfortune followeth"
Geneva(1599) "her child depart from her and death follow not"
Douay(1609)RoCath "she miscarry indeed, but live herself" (Eng. of the Vulgate)
KJV(1611/1769) "her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow"
RV/ASV(1885/1901) "her fruit depart, and yet no mischief follow"

RSV(1952) "there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows"
NJB(1985)RoCath "she suffers a miscarriage but no further harm is done"
NRSV(1989) "there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows"
REB(1989) "she has a miscarriage but suffers no further injury"
NAB(2010)RoCath "she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury"

January 1973: The Roe v. Wade US Supreme Court decision removing excessive government restriction on abortion.

Amplified Cl.(1987) "she has a miscarriage, yet no further damage follows"
Amplified (2015) "she gives birth prematurely [and the baby lives]"

NASB(1977) "she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury,"
NASB(1995/2020) "she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury"

What new manuscript find or improvement in linguistic science caused the switch in the Amplified and NASB translations?

NET2(2019) "her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury"
EHV(2019) "the child comes out, yet no harm follows"
ESV(2016) "her children come out, but there is no harm"

After 1973 there is a significant translation change found from a miscarriage to a premature birth. In Ex. 21:22, a fine on the offender is suitable to a miscarriage if the loss was not yet a human being. If a human being exists at conception, the penalty would be 'life for life'. It seems clear that the Roe v. Wade court decision brought about a "theological translation" in some versions, even within the revisions of Amplified and NASB translations, when its importance on the abortion question was brought to light.

The preceding review of translations on this verse and others prompts me, if using a modern translation, to use the RSV, REB, NRSV which are rather standard translations. ALL translations have some bias and perspective, so it is important to me to understand this when using translations in study, to arrive at God's inerrant Holy Spirit inspired word to me and all his people.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,369
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#45
A verbal dictation of the scriptures is certainly one method God used to compose the scriptures. We can one such example in the book of Jeremiah. Also, the creation account, where there were no eye witnesses, either had God dictate the events of this account, or inspire his words verbatim to a scribe.

Jeremiah 36:2 (KJV 1900)
2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day.
I agree that certain sections of Scripture were dictated. However, there is no need for God to have dictated or "inspired his words verbatim" for the account of creation. There are other means available to Him.

Either way, we know that every word came from the mouth of God, this is why it's called the word of God.
Many of the words were spoken originally by others, not by God. The account is inspired by God and is reliable.

Psalm 12:6 (KJV 1900)
6 The words of the Lord are pure words:
As silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
This verse has nothing to do with the topic.

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV 1900)
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God (God breathed), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Inspiration is not dictation.
 
Dec 22, 2021
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#46
Thanks for your opinions, I’m sticking with the KJV as the word of God holy, pure, and preserved for us today.
John, how do you handle the quote given in the book of Hebrews from the OT, that cannot be found in the KJV OT? I'm referring to the following:

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." (Heb 1:6, KJV)

If you do a phrase search, that is found nowhere else in the entire KJV Bible. It is found in the Greek OT:

"Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people." (Deut 32:43, LXXE)

The full KJV Translators to the Reader statement, which is many pages long it states:

"Lastly, we have on the one side avoided the scrupulosity of the Puritans, who leave the old Ecclesiastical words, and betake them to other, as when they put WASHING for BAPTISM, and CONGREGATION instead of CHURCH"
http://www.thekingsbible.com/Library/Preface


The KJV used Ecclesiastical words that are not literal, word for word. If you read that entire statement, you'll see those translators did not consider their translation to be the only pure and preserved word of God. In fact, up until the KJV, the word "church" was used in the OT as well as the NT, but it is never found in the KJV OT. Oddly, the word "church" is used in the following NT verse referring to the people of God in the OT.

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:" (Acts 7:38, KJV)

While the KJV is my primary study translation, these sort of questions kept me from being "KJV only".
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
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#47
John, how do you handle the quote given in the book of Hebrews from the OT, that cannot be found in the KJV OT? I'm referring to the following:

"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." (Heb 1:6, KJV)

If you do a phrase search, that is found nowhere else in the entire KJV Bible. It is found in the Greek OT:

"Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people." (Deut 32:43, LXXE)
I believe that those who criticize the King James Bible and tell us that the Hebrew Scriptures have been corrupted because of the example you stated, “And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, HE SAITH, AND LET ALL THE ANGLES OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” are entirely missing the point.

The inspired writer to the Hebrews is NOT quoting from some mythical Greek Septuagint but rather is referring to something that has not yet happened that WILL BE SAID at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Ghost is not referring to a past event, but rather to the future and no specific quote from the Old Testament is in the mind of the writer of the book of Hebrews.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,887
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#48
In addition to understanding that every word in the Bible is completely infallible, the Bible student must also understand just who wrote the Holy scriptures. Immediately we can turn to the scriptures and point to various men who historically wrote the books that make up the Holy word of God.

2 Peter 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

They wrote it because they were used by God to do so, but the person who held the pen and paper (the scribe) is of least importance to us. Rather it is of utmost value and importance to understand who dictated the words that have been written, and that is none other than God.

Jeremiah 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

God gets the credit for every word penned by the men he chose, because the scribes he used only penned the very words of God , thus making it the same as if though God was speaking and writing to us directly. Therefore God is the one who wrote the Bible and not man, and it is of no importance nor significance to know the personal writing styles of these individuals nor their back round, nor any other information about them that is not contained within the scriptures themselves. God has given us an excellent example of this type of understanding within his word.

As we begin reading the book of Romans, it becomes evidently clear to us that Paul is the one speaking here as if it were Paul himself writing these very words.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Romans 1:8 First, ***I ***thank*** my ***God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is*** my ***witness, whom*** I ***serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing*** I ***make mention of you always in ***my ***prayers;


Yet as we conclude the book of Romans, we discover something altogether different. We discover that Paul was not the writer of the epistle to the Romans, but rather it was another man named Tertius.

Romans 16:22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.

What can we learn from this? God is teaching us that even though the books in the Bible may be written as if though they were the writers' own words, we can be sure that they were not the writers' words at all, rather those words belonged to the one who dictated them to the writers and the book is correctly recognized to be the words of the one who dictated the words, not the one who penned them.

In other words, many people give Paul the credit for writing the book of Romans instead of Tertius. Tertius’ credentials, back round or writing style are never questioned nor examined. Instead, many theologians try to learn as much as possible about the apostle Paul’s background and style of writing through church history books and yet fail to understand what God is revealing to us here.

God is teaching us that just as Paul dictated the book of Romans to Tertius, and Tertius penned those words, and Paul is the one who gets the credit for writing the book of Romans, that God has done the very same thing with everyone He chose to pen His words in the Bible. Therefore, the same way Tertius’ credentials and style of writing are ignored for being the scribe of Paul, we must also do for every other scribe who wrote the words of God. This means that Paul’s credentials for writing the other books of the New Testament are just as unimportant as Tertius’. The same goes for every other scribe of the Bible.

The focus is always on the one who dictated the words and not on the one who penned them. We can therefore boldly proclaim that God is the one who wrote the Bible.
yes I think also it shows that Gods hands on earth , are the hands of those who hear and believe him.

it shows our purpose in creation to do Gods Will on earth as it is done in heaven.

his hands are Christian hands , his heart is Christians hearts , his money to meet needs is Christians extra money when they are willing to obey and go help someone in need in thier world

God being a spirit made man to carry out his Will in the created realms of earth. Even as he inspired , showed visions to , spoke to men and caused them To write his words so all could always know what the true God said.

everything he does on earth os done through mankind being willing to listen and hear and believe and obey his Will on earth.

People praying for help financially somehow for instance , won’t wake up to a bag of money magically appearing in their floor , but God will move in the hearts of those with plenty who are willing to help their brother in need wherever they might run across them in the world.

we are made to carry out the Will of Christ just as men have been called and purposes to write his word and preserve it through time we’re all called to act in his good will towards all
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#49
I would like to provide just one example of many:

Matthew 28:1 (KJV 1900)
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


If you look at the original text, you will see that the word translated as "sabbath" is actually plural. This may have not made sense to the translators at the time, so they decided to translate it as a singular word instead. Then, as the continued with this verse, the came across the exact same Greek word again (sabbatōn) which is once again, plural. Well, you can see how this just doesn't seem to make sense to translate it as God had wrote it, so they decided to translate a plural word as "day of the week" which is singular. But they couldn't translate it as "days of the week" because, again, it just doesn't make sense.

And so, I hope you can see that our logic in this passage has superseded what God wrote in his original text. But what happens if we translate it according to the way it was written? Well, it would read like this:


Matthew 28:1 (KJV 1900)
In the end of the SABBATHS, as it began to dawn toward the first of SABBATHS, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
You are trying to compare to something you haven’t seen. In all honesty, you haven’t read the so-called “original text” but only copies. We have so many differing “Received Text”/TR and which one of them that God preserves? The TR had some words that departed from the English 1611 KJB. Any effort to change substantially the words of the KJB like the example below is no longer pure. Let’s take your example:

Matthew 28:1
In the end of the SABBATHS, as it began to dawn toward the first of SABBATHS, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


Firstly, the translator to the Reader in the KJB pointed to us of variety of rendering a Greek word in English. In this example, Sabaton could be translated as “Sabbath” or “of the week” (singular) which is correct and not “day of the week” as you have provided because we have another Greek “heis” for the word “first day” which is singular. While the English word” week” is singular, however, it carries plurality being equivalent to 7 days. So the KJB 1611 is correct and not your translation.

Secondly, your concern of the morphology that Greek Sabaton is plural and should be translated in English to “SABBATHS” (plural) is very weak because this will contradict the Greek “heis” which is singular and thus appealing to context referring to Sabbath day which is the 7th and the next day would fall the first day of the week and not the Sabbath day of the Jewish Tradition.

Thirdly, the English has “in the end” pointing to a certain day not days hence, the Sabbath and not “Sabbaths”. By the way, the English word “Sabbath” has been translated in the KJB correctly and it is not necessary to change it to “SABBATHS” as you seem, for the word Sabbath is a countable noun and it could be used both as singular and plural. and yet, the context will play a great role in the determining of its sense and the KJB is correct and not yours.

Fourthly, your use of italics does not conform to the basic rules of translation. Italicized words mean the Greek word is not found or is not available at that time and have been supplied in English for clarity of sense. You have made it italicized all the words, however, we have them in Greek.

Now I’m waiting to be corrected from all these points. Thank you.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#50
I have learned that God has permitted such errors in every translation in order to conceal truth from those not willing to dig for it (like compare it against the original). Such neglect results in the misunderstanding of passages which contain great doctrinal teachings.
Exactly. God knew full well the form of each translation / revision would eventually take, works that were faithfully transcribed and meticulously recorded with utmost care and urgency. Whatever the form, it is God who ultimately allowed it.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#51
Please be more specific, who were these 'people' who decided. How do we know they were correct in selecting the books of the New Testament? Thanks.
Apparently, those that decided were Jewish.
Romans 3:1-3
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#52
My reasoning is simple, the poster stated that people determined what Scripture should be included in the Bible, the Old and New Testament. I as a simple question, who were these people that made such a determination of what belonged in the Bible and what didn't. Simple straightforward question. After all, the Bible just didn't fall out of the sky. Someone determined what books belonged in the Bible. So who made the determination? It's a very legitimate question.
Very well then, I will give my best response to this question.

Most historians track the present Canon to the Council in Rome (382AD). However, there is good historical evidence, that the Canon was decided upon before that time. Decided upon, by Jewish believers first and then the Assemblies of Christ, by the Second Century. Decided How? Decided by their acceptable use in preaching and teaching by these assemblies.

The Old Testament Scriptures, were pretty much settled, before the first advent of our Lord. Josephus believed the OT Scriptures to be stable before his day and Josephus found confirmation in another first-century Jewish source, namely Philo of Alexandria. Philo hints at a three-fold division to the OT canon. This three-fold structure seems to match Jesus’s own words about the OT being composed of “the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44). There were 22 Books that were accepted by the Jews and these 22 Books match the 39 Books that we have today. Many of these Books, were quoted from directly by our Lord and the Apostles.

The New Testament Scriptures, were determined, not only by acceptable use of the assemblies but in this three fold manner: 1) Their Divine qualities, 2) Reception of the Assemblies, which Christ is building and, 3) Compositional Authority - directly from one of the Apostles or ones who had extremely close relationships with them. In all cases - Divinely Inspired.

Further definition of these three factors follows:

1) Divine qualities - Scripture, where God's attributes and Glory can be seen. Through these Divine qualities, the voice of the Lord is heard. As Jesus himself declared, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me” (John 10:27).

2) Reception of the Assemblies - It is important to note that the work of the Spirit does not happen only on an individual level, but also on a corporate level. Thus, there are good reasons to think that God’s collective, covenantal people would recognize the books that are from Him. Then we can look to the consensus of God’s people (in both old and new covenant times) as a reliable guide to which books are from him.

3) Compositional Authority - A final attribute of canonical books is that they are written by God’s chosen agents, his inspired Prophets and Apostles. Put simply, not just anyone can speak for God; only those commissioned by Him for this express purpose.

In conclusion - Is the present Canon the design of God's direct actions, as it is in "inspiration"? We would have to conclude - No.
Is it the work of God's people protected and influenced by His Providential Government? We can conclude - Yes.

I hope that answers your question in part.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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#53
You are trying to compare to something you haven’t seen. In all honesty, you haven’t read the so-called “original text” but only copies. We have so many differing “Received Text”/TR and which one of them that God preserves? The TR had some words that departed from the English 1611 KJB. Any effort to change substantially the words of the KJB like the example below is no longer pure. Let’s take your example:

Matthew 28:1
In the end of the SABBATHS, as it began to dawn toward the first of SABBATHS, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


Firstly, the translator to the Reader in the KJB pointed to us of variety of rendering a Greek word in English. In this example, Sabaton could be translated as “Sabbath” or “of the week” (singular) which is correct and not “day of the week” as you have provided because we have another Greek “heis” for the word “first day” which is singular. While the English word” week” is singular, however, it carries plurality being equivalent to 7 days. So the KJB 1611 is correct and not your translation.

Secondly, your concern of the morphology that Greek Sabaton is plural and should be translated in English to “SABBATHS” (plural) is very weak because this will contradict the Greek “heis” which is singular and thus appealing to context referring to Sabbath day which is the 7th and the next day would fall the first day of the week and not the Sabbath day of the Jewish Tradition.

Thirdly, the English has “in the end” pointing to a certain day not days hence, the Sabbath and not “Sabbaths”. By the way, the English word “Sabbath” has been translated in the KJB correctly and it is not necessary to change it to “SABBATHS” as you seem, for the word Sabbath is a countable noun and it could be used both as singular and plural. and yet, the context will play a great role in the determining of its sense and the KJB is correct and not yours.

Fourthly, your use of italics does not conform to the basic rules of translation. Italicized words mean the Greek word is not found or is not available at that time and have been supplied in English for clarity of sense. You have made it italicized all the words, however, we have them in Greek.

Now I’m waiting to be corrected from all these points. Thank you.
Nicely put together - enjoyed reading.

Yes those pesky Italicized words added to the KJB. Like the word "unknown" in front of the word translated "tongues". What a disaster that has given ground too.
 
Dec 19, 2021
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#55
Dictation... the style of the writer isn't in the writing...


You mean inspiration, but fully guided?
The fact that the Bible tells us that all of scripture is God breathed, tell us that it all came from the very mouth of God and passed onto whomever the actual scribe was. For example, God spoke His Word to Jeremiah to be written down and Jeremiah then reiterates the words of God to his scribe who was the one who wrote them down.

Jeremiah 36:1–4 (KJV 1900)
And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day. 3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin. 4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord, which he had spoken unto him, upon a roll of a book.


So, when all the smoke clears, it doesn't matter who the scribe was, nor who the prophet was, but who gave the words to begin with. The scriptures, we know were given by a few different means to men, but whatever means God chose, we must ultimately acknowledge that it's the one who initially gave the words to mankind to write down that gets all the credit.

So, if we want to study anyone's writing style or historical background, it should be God. And everything he wants us to know about himself is written in his word the Bible.
 
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#56
Hi Eddie! I've noticed in these various posts that we all seem to be talking past each other at times and not understanding the perspective of the other. Let me give an example out of my past experience that I imagine you and others can identify with. In years before the Internet, I began to write prisoners through Chuck Colson's Prison Fellowship program. It did not take long in reading letters from prisoners to realize, using a dictionary to follow the thought of the guy would take me only so far. It took time to learn the words and phrases used uniquely by an inmate so I could understand him. Of course in Bible study and seeking to learn from the original languages and helps, it is not that complicated in the same way; but I found the same principle holds. When studying an epistle of the Apostle Paul, I do a word study on a word or particular phrasing as is used in all his epistles, and in the comparisons noticing the context. I think that is just basic common sense.
But why only study only the epistles of Paul when you're looking for clarity concerning something he said? Are these Paul's words or God's? If God's, then why not follow God's methodology of understanding proper doctrine by, first of all, using "All of scripture" to arrive at a correct understanding, as all of scripture has been given for that very purpose. God teaches us the same principle in another passage.

Isaiah 28:9–10 (KJV 1900)
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
And whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
Them that are weaned from the milk,
And drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
Line upon line, line upon line;
Here a little, and there a little
:


Nowhere in the scriptures does God isolate us from comparing something written in the book of Romans with the book of Genesis or any other book of the Bible. The fact that common sense is what guides us in life, is a grievous mistake when we take it into the scriptures. The Bible calls that "reasoning among yourself". Which if you look up each time that phrase is used, you'll see that it was always a mistake to do so, as it resulted in faulty understanding.

Matthew 16:5–9 (KJV 1900)
And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. 8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? 9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?


Luke 20:13–14 (KJV 1900)
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. 14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.


Instead of reasoning among ourselves (using common sense) as to which way we ought to study the scriptures, why not reason together with the Word of God? In other words, look in the scriptures to see how God wants us to study his word and come to proper doctrines.

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:...


The historical grammatical method of interpreting the scriptures is derived on nothing but human logic, yet no one can produce a single scripture which supports that methodology ad yet it's the most widely accepted method. Doesn't that seem strange to anyone? Especially since the Bible itself guides us on God's own methodology which is the only one that truly works to arrive at proper doctrine.
 
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#57
I agree that certain sections of Scripture were dictated. However, there is no need for God to have dictated or "inspired his words verbatim" for the account of creation. There are other means available to Him.
That's right, and I stated that in my comment. Other means such as dreams, visions, etc. were used by God to give his words to mankind to be recorded for us. But whatever method God used to record the creation account, we can be sure that they were all his own words and not mans. That is what separates the Word of God, which is perfect and pure, from the word of man, which is corrupted and fallible.


[/QUOTE]Many of the words were spoken originally by others, not by God. The account is inspired by God and is reliable.[/QUOTE]

We are given plenty of examples to know that every words spoken by men were the very words of God, even if we didn't read anywhere where God actually spoke to them first.

1 Kings 22:14 (KJV 1900)
And Micaiah said, As the Lord liveth, what the Lord saith unto me, that will I speak.


1 Kings 22:19–20 (KJV 1900)
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

Which part of verse 19 and 20 is the word of the Lord? Verse 19 where Michaiah describes what he saw, or verse 20 where he quotes what the Lord said? Of course, it all of it. That's why God put the phrase, "Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord" before describing what Michaiah said he saw. He did this so that we wouldn't confuse what a prophet sees and declares as being their own words.

[/QUOTE]This verse has nothing to do with the topic.[/QUOTE]

Here you are referring to Psalm 12:6-7. If you quoted what I stated prior to quoting this passage, it actually has everything to do with this topic. The fact that you don't agree is really just an opinion. Here is what I said:

"Either way, we know that every word came from the mouth of God, this is why it's called the word of God.

Psalm 12:6 (KJV 1900)
6 The words of the Lord are pure words:
As silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. "


Like I stated earlier, God's words, when compared to man's words are incomparable. God's words are perfect and pure whiles man's words are corrupted and fallible.

[/QUOTE]Inspiration is not dictation.[/QUOTE]

Here you are speaking about 2 Timothy 3:16, but the word "inspiration" IS "DICTATION" if comes from someone's mouth, and here, we're told that all of scripture came from the mouth of God. In other words, God is defining the word "inspiration" for us if we look it up in the Bible which is derived from 2 other Greek words which is the word, "God" and the word "blow". Some translations have correctly translated this as "God breathed" which teaches us that all scripture came from the very mouth of God. This means that no matter by what means God gave his word to be written down, that they are all His words from his mouth.
 
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#58
You are trying to compare to something you haven’t seen. In all honesty, you haven’t read the so-called “original text” but only copies. We have so many differing “Received Text”/TR and which one of them that God preserves? The TR had some words that departed from the English 1611 KJB. Any effort to change substantially the words of the KJB like the example below is no longer pure. Let’s take your example:

Matthew 28:1
In the end of the SABBATHS, as it began to dawn toward the first of SABBATHS, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


Firstly, the translator to the Reader in the KJB pointed to us of variety of rendering a Greek word in English. In this example, Sabaton could be translated as “Sabbath” or “of the week” (singular) which is correct and not “day of the week” as you have provided because we have another Greek “heis” for the word “first day” which is singular. While the English word” week” is singular, however, it carries plurality being equivalent to 7 days. So the KJB 1611 is correct and not your translation.

Secondly, your concern of the morphology that Greek Sabaton is plural and should be translated in English to “SABBATHS” (plural) is very weak because this will contradict the Greek “heis” which is singular and thus appealing to context referring to Sabbath day which is the 7th and the next day would fall the first day of the week and not the Sabbath day of the Jewish Tradition.

Thirdly, the English has “in the end” pointing to a certain day not days hence, the Sabbath and not “Sabbaths”. By the way, the English word “Sabbath” has been translated in the KJB correctly and it is not necessary to change it to “SABBATHS” as you seem, for the word Sabbath is a countable noun and it could be used both as singular and plural. and yet, the context will play a great role in the determining of its sense and the KJB is correct and not yours.

Fourthly, your use of italics does not conform to the basic rules of translation. Italicized words mean the Greek word is not found or is not available at that time and have been supplied in English for clarity of sense. You have made it italicized all the words, however, we have them in Greek.

Now I’m waiting to be corrected from all these points. Thank you.
To begin with your fourth comment, I have italicized all scriptures I post for the sake of separating God's words from my own which are not italicized. It's just something I do as a form of habit. So, I think there is just a misunderstanding here regarding my use and purpose of italics.

Your initial remark is also a misunderstanding of what I said. I never said that I have read the original written parchments. I said that I don't need to. As many times as the original parchments were re-copied, I can be sure that God preserved his word pure forever as I stated with Psalm 12:6-7. It's his original words that he promised to preserve and not any translation. That is why each translation is translated from another source and not just written with words that came to the translators by inspiration of God. No, God already gave his word by inspiration in the Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek. You can doubt the validity of the received text based on what history books tell you, but I have no reason to doubt that God is the one who preserves his word.

In your first point, you have provided no scripture to demonstrate that a plural word is allowed to be translated as a singular word without ample biblical support. What you are doing is using basic "rules of grammar" (common sense) which doesn't go very far when it comes to the spiritual word of God. The translators came across the plural word "Sabaton" and let's just say that they had the same reasoning you stated above for doing so. That, "While the English word” week” is singular, however, it carries plurality being equivalent to 7 days.". What you are suggesting is inconsistent with the scriptures. If God wanted a word to be singular, he would have written it as such and vice versa. I provided Galatians 3:16 as my example which you did not take into consideration in your comments, but instead relied on rules of grammar to explain the mistake that has been made by the translators.

But this was not the only place where this mistake was made regarding the word "Sabbath". We can take a look at a few more.

Matthew 12:1 (KJV 1900)
At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.


Please look in your interlinear (which is the original Greek text of the Word of God, for those who are following along and may not know) and take a look at the word that was translated as "sabbath". You'll notice that this word is also plural in the original text. Yet the translators decided to translate it as a singular word, but not only did they do that, but they also added the word "day" into the text and did not italicize it like they should have to let us know that this word is found nowhere in the original text. So, as this verse read in the KJV, it seems to indicate that Jesus only did this on one occasion, when in fact, he did this on multiple Sabbaths.

Matthew 12:1 (KJV 1900)
At that time Jesus went on the SABBATHS through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.


Do you see how a correction in the translation can drastically change the meaning of a passage? I hope so. Let's take alook at another.

Luke 18:12 (KJV 1900)
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Here the translators came across the singular word for Sabbath and translated it as "week" (which is also singular). This shows an inconsistency in their translation, to use the word "week" whether they come across a singular or plural word in the original text. Nevertheless, had they properly translated it as "Sabbath", it teaches us that this Pharisee didn't say that he fasted 2 times in a 7 day period, but 2 times in the same day. And per the context, this would be a better understanding anyway, as he was trying to distinguish himself above his neighbor by his great sacrifice of fasting and many works.

Incidentally, the Greek word for "Sabbath" comes from the Hebrew word for "sabbath", so the rules of grammar you initially pointed out fall extremely short because the Hebrew word for "Sabbath" is not the same word for "seven" or for "week", they are all individual words. This is why our reasoning must be from the scriptures alone. This is one cohesive book from the mouth of God. The Hebrew word for "Sabbath" is only translated as "Sabbath" and the Hebrew word for "seven" and for "week" are never translated as "Sabbath". Therefore we can (with plenty of biblical support) say that if God wanted to write the word "week" in the New Testament, he would have done so. Likewise for the word "seven".

But when we let ourselves be led by what the inspired word of God declares, then we can arrive at correct biblical truths.

Your second comment is not relevant because you are assuming that the Greek word "“heis” is in the original text, but it is not. The translators even italicized it to make sure we didn't think it was.

And your third point, again, is faulty because you're placing grammatical rules over what the text is actually showing you it says. I don't know if you're doing this because you believe the KJV is infallible or what other reason. But to say, "the English has “in the end” pointing to a certain day not days hence, the Sabbath and not “Sabbaths”. By the way, the English word “Sabbath” has been translated in the KJB correctly and it is not necessary to change it to “SABBATHS”".

The word "end" can point to a day or days. It all depends on what God has written, right? And he has written that it's pointing to the end of SABBATHS. Therefore your determination that it need not be changed is done so without any biblical scriptural support. That is what we would all like to see here, this way we have something to compare to in order to make sure that what you're saying is so (Acts 17:11).

God made them both plural in Matthew 28:1, therefore, our job is not to side with the translators as "inspired men", and then try to come up with grammatical way to rationalize what they have done, but instead to ask, "why did God write it this way in his original word?". When you assume/believe that any translation is inspired and thus infallible, then you will never question it, and that is a huge mistake.
 
Dec 22, 2021
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#59
But why only study only the epistles of Paul when you're looking for clarity concerning something he said? Are these Paul's words or God's? If God's, then why not follow God's methodology of understanding proper doctrine by, first of all, using "All of scripture" to arrive at a correct understanding, as all of scripture has been given for that very purpose. God teaches us the same principle in another passage.

Isaiah 28:9–10 (KJV 1900)
Whom shall he teach knowledge?
And whom shall he make to understand doctrine?
Them that are weaned from the milk,
And drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;
Line upon line, line upon line;
Here a little, and there a little
:


Nowhere in the scriptures does God isolate us from comparing something written in the book of Romans with the book of Genesis or any other book of the Bible. The fact that common sense is what guides us in life, is a grievous mistake when we take it into the scriptures. The Bible calls that "reasoning among yourself". Which if you look up each time that phrase is used, you'll see that it was always a mistake to do so, as it resulted in faulty understanding.

Matthew 16:5–9 (KJV 1900)
And when his disciples were come to the other side, they had forgotten to take bread. 6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread. 8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread? 9 Do ye not yet understand, neither remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?


Luke 20:13–14 (KJV 1900)
Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him. 14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.


Instead of reasoning among ourselves (using common sense) as to which way we ought to study the scriptures, why not reason together with the Word of God? In other words, look in the scriptures to see how God wants us to study his word and come to proper doctrines.

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:...


The historical grammatical method of interpreting the scriptures is derived on nothing but human logic, yet no one can produce a single scripture which supports that methodology ad yet it's the most widely accepted method. Doesn't that seem strange to anyone? Especially since the Bible itself guides us on God's own methodology which is the only one that truly works to arrive at proper doctrine.
Eddie, you wrote:

"The historical grammatical method of interpreting the scriptures is derived on nothing but human logic, yet no one can produce a single scripture which supports that methodology ad yet it's the most widely accepted method. Doesn't that seem strange to anyone?"

Man is not born with a blank slate for a brain. Just as a computer has a BIOS preprogrammed, man is born with some sort of 'basic input output system' or we'd not have God consciousness and instinct and some type of basic logic is preprogrammed into humans from birth, at least it is in 'reasonable' humans with whom you can have a reasonable, rational and intelligent discussion. The etymology of 'logic' reads:

"logic (n.)
mid-14c., logike, 'branch of philosophy that treats of forms of thinking; the science of distinction of true from false reasoning,' from Old French logique (13c.), from Latin (ars) logica 'logic,' from Greek (he) logike (techne) '(the) reasoning (art),' from fem. of logikos 'pertaining to speaking or reasoning' (also 'of or pertaining to speech'), from logos 'reason, idea, word'"
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=logic

The Greek logikos is found only two times in the Bible and the Strong's Greek Dictionary defines it as follows:

"λογικός, logikos, log-ik-os' From G3056; rational (“logical”) - KJV: reasonable, of the word."

I'll quote the two verses where the word is found using translations that bring out the 'logic' aspect:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a living, holy sacrifice, unto God acceptable,––your rational(logikos) divine service;" (Rom 12:1, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)

"I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice--living, sanctified, acceptable to God--your intelligent(logikos) service;" (Rom 12:1, YLT)

"As newborn babes, long after the rational(logikos) sincere milk! that by it you should grow;" (1 Pet. 2:2 ABP)

"as newborn babies, desire the reasonable(logikos), unspoiled milk, so that you may grow up to salvation," (1Pet 2:2, Literal Standard Version)
 
Dec 19, 2021
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#60
Eddie, you wrote:

"The historical grammatical method of interpreting the scriptures is derived on nothing but human logic, yet no one can produce a single scripture which supports that methodology ad yet it's the most widely accepted method. Doesn't that seem strange to anyone?"

Man is not born with a blank slate for a brain. Just as a computer has a BIOS preprogrammed, man is born with some sort of 'basic input output system' or we'd not have God consciousness and instinct and some type of basic logic is preprogrammed into humans from birth, at least it is in 'reasonable' humans with whom you can have a reasonable, rational and intelligent discussion. The etymology of 'logic' reads:

"logic (n.)
mid-14c., logike, 'branch of philosophy that treats of forms of thinking; the science of distinction of true from false reasoning,' from Old French logique (13c.), from Latin (ars) logica 'logic,' from Greek (he) logike (techne) '(the) reasoning (art),' from fem. of logikos 'pertaining to speaking or reasoning' (also 'of or pertaining to speech'), from logos 'reason, idea, word'"
https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=logic

The Greek logikos is found only two times in the Bible and the Strong's Greek Dictionary defines it as follows:

"λογικός, logikos, log-ik-os' From G3056; rational (“logical”) - KJV: reasonable, of the word."

I'll quote the two verses where the word is found using translations that bring out the 'logic' aspect:

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a living, holy sacrifice, unto God acceptable,––your rational(logikos) divine service;" (Rom 12:1, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)

"I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to present your bodies a sacrifice--living, sanctified, acceptable to God--your intelligent(logikos) service;" (Rom 12:1, YLT)

"As newborn babes, long after the rational(logikos) sincere milk! that by it you should grow;" (1 Pet. 2:2 ABP)

"as newborn babies, desire the reasonable(logikos), unspoiled milk, so that you may grow up to salvation," (1Pet 2:2, Literal Standard Version)
Thank you for your reply, but you have not provided me with what I have asked for regarding any biblical support for the historical grammatical method of biblical interpretation being the correct method. It is certainly derived by our own logic, which is foolishness when it comes to applying the same rules of understanding that we do to common books written by men, to understand a holy and spiritual book like the Bible. God emphasizes that our wisdom is foolishness.

1 Corinthians 3:19 (KJV 1900)
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

1 Corinthians 1:25 (KJV 1900)
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


How can it take the holy spirit to understand the scriptures if all we have to do is go by the plain rendering of the text? Unless, that is, logic, deems that the plain meaning doesn't make sense (like cut off your hand), and so then, in such cases, we should seek another meaning. But this man-made hermeneutic is absolute folly as it places each individual reader as the authority when it comes down to what makes logical sense and what doesn't. I have come across people who claim the name of Christ and spend their time snake handling poisonous snakes. Why on earth would someone do that? Because to them, this plain rendering of the text makes logical sense. God teaches us in his word that it isn't the plain rendering of the text that has the most value, but rather the spiritual meaning of the text. This is why Christ always taught in parables and without parables he did not teach.

Matthew 13:34 (KJV 1900)
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:


The purpose of parables is to use commonly understood words or phrases or accounts in order to conceal truth from those who do not have ears to hear spiritual truths.

Matthew 13:10–14 (KJV 1900)
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:


And that which Jesus spoke is what we are reading in the scriptures, it is the word of God written in parables. Our job, therefore, is to search out the scriptures in order to find what God means by what he says. And the only way to do that is to go back to the one who gave us those words in the first place. We go back to the word of God for our understanding.

Mark 4:34 (KJV 1900)
But without a parable spake he not unto them: and
when they were alone, he (the Word of God) expounded all things to his disciples.

Matthew 15:15 (KJV 1900)
Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.


You see that not even a true child of God is exempt from confusion when they read something in God's word. They still have to go to God in prayer and diligently search the scriptures for understanding using the method that God himself has laid out in his word (which I laid out in my previous post). But even if a person were to try and follow God's own hermeneutic, the Word of God would still, ultimately, be foolishness to him because he does not have the spirit of God within him who teaches us all things in the proper time and season.

Regarding your explanation of the word "logikos" as perhaps a prooftext that God wants us to use our own logic when it comes to hermeneutics. Romans 12:1 describes our spiritual conduct before the Lord.

Romans 12:1 (KJV 1900)
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.


The word "service" comes from the word "worship". This teaches us that presenting our bodies as a living sacrifice (which is the same as taking up our cross and following Christ) represents how we, through our obedience to God's commandments, worship God. Obedience to God's commandments (the whole Bible) require daily self-sacrifice. This is what is being described as our "reasonable" (logikos) service (act of worship).

What is interesting is that the second passage you quoted, as you stated, also contains the same Greek word "logikos". But the translations you used to show this are both faulty. Please look in an interlinear and you will see that they left out the word "of the word". This is the word for "logikos" and not the word "reasonable" or "intelligent" as those Bibles suggest. The words, "reasonable" or "intelligent" are Strong's #G97 which actually means "not deceitfully" A sit comes from Strong's #G1388 (subtle) with an alpha prefix which negates the word (not subtle). Please take the time to examine this, whether it is so.

Here is the correct rendering of the text:

1 Peter 2:2 (KJV 1900)
As newborn babes, desire the sincere (adolos) milk of the word (logikos), that ye may grow thereby:


So, when we use the word of God to explain how a word is to be understood (as you did) then these two passages teach us that we can understand the word "reasonable" in "reasonable service" (Rom 12:1) to point us right back to the Word of God (1 Pe 2:2) and not to our own logic.