How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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And then this: John 11
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
And then he resurrected Lazarus from the grave after he had been dead for 4 days.
Hard to believe that verse 13 is referring to verse 5 seeing that verse 5 plainly says Enoch was translated so that he would not see death.
Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
AND again what about Elijah. Scripture clearly says he was taken to heaven.
I believe that Jesus stopped speaking in verse 12, and that John, the narrator, starts speaking in verse 13. There are several reasons for this. First, translations that have the words of Jesus in red differ on the verses that are red. IOW, there is disagreement as to who is speaking in verse 13. Second, the last phrase in verse 13 says "...even the Son of man which is in heaven." How could Jesus speak verse 13 is he was in heaven? Third, there is John 3:16, the most famous verse in the Bible. During Jesus' ministry, the way to be saved was not simply believing in Jesus. People had to keep the Law (Matt 19:16ff). On the day of Pentecost, the Christian new birth became available, and all that is necessary for a person to become saved is to confess Jesus as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead (Rom 10:9).
I believe they died again.
The Bible does not say Elijah never died. He was taken into heaven (the sky) and moved from one place to another to underscore the fact that Elisha was replacing him. If the prophets with Elisha had thought that Elijah was taken to heaven to be with God, they would not have bothered to go look for him. Also, if Elijah could be taken to heaven to be with God before the death and resurrection of Christ, then anyone could, and the work of Christ was not necessary.
Heb 11:5, 13 say he died.
See above.
As Jesus said in Matt 11:14, and the angel said to Zacharias in Luke 1:17, those verses are speaking of John the Baptist. JtB was not a reincarnated Elijah, but he came in the spirit and power of Elijah.
God certainly did not lie, and the Bible does not say that "some other form of Death took place the very day and moment".
Here you go again denying the very words of God who said: " but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil;
for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
God said it TWICE.
Will you, again, deny His Word...........which is the source of all sin.
The Bible says nothing of the kind - it plainly says souls can die and that only God hath immortality:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE." - Ezekiel 18:4 KJV
"He which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from DEATH." - James 5:20 KJV
"...the King of kings and Lord of lords Who only hath immortality." - 2 Timothy 6:16 KJV
The SOUL that SINS shall DIE = TWO Deaths A.) Physical and B.) the SOUL
The SOUL of Man is contained in the physical body = Genesis 2:7, Isaiah 26:9, James 2:26, 1 Thess 5:23, 1 Peter 3:19
When the physical body dies the Soul of that person goes to one of two places = Luke 16:19-31 Matthew 10:28 Revelation 6:6-11
Revelation 7:9-17, 1 Peter 3:19
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. James 2:26
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
John 3:13 doesn't read that way.
It says, "No man hath ASCENDED [G305; active] into heaven..."
The verse says nothing about ones' having been "taken up [G353 - passive]" (like in 2Ki2:11 LXX - re: Elijah) or God having "translated / removed [G3346]" someone (like in Gen5:24 LXX - re: Enoch).
Anyway, the text does not read "nobody is IN heaven" as you suggest it is conveying... The text is referring instead to "has ASCENDED [active, perfect indicative]".
And the phrase "has ascended [G305]" would involve their body.
So this is not in reference to those believers being spoken of in 2Cor5:[6],4b,8 [where the word "unclothed" in this text means the same thing as "absent from the body" (which occurs upon the death of a believer--tho they are indeed "at home with the Lord"), whereas presently while still-living/whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord]
As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.
4“Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6If he has not eaten on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God.
Everyone will see physical death = God speaks of the death of the Soul which is separate from physical death
.‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.
this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
ETERNAl Life never dies - never = do not lie against God's words.
We are body, spirit, and soul.
Adam's spirit died(was separated from God) the day he sinned...It was spiritual death (separation from God)
His body and soul (self/consciousness) remained alive.
Jesus came to atone for sin so that our spirits can be born again (saved).
I've heard it put this way before:
2 births = eternal life
This is being born physically and getting saved... born again spiritually.
2 deaths = eternal damnation
This is dying physically while being spiritually dead, as well.
It is appointed of man to die once and then the judgment.
If you are reborn spiritually when you die you will be judged to eternal life.
If you are not reborn spiritually when you die then you will be judged to face eternal damnation.
Adam's spirit died(was separated from God) the day he sinned...It was spiritual death (separation from God)
His body and soul (self/consciousness) remained alive.
Jesus came to atone for sin so that our spirits can be born again (saved).
I've heard it put this way before:
2 births = eternal life
This is being born physically and getting saved... born again spiritually.
2 deaths = eternal damnation
This is dying physically while being spiritually dead, as well.
It is appointed of man to die once and then the judgment.
If you are reborn spiritually when you die you will be judged to eternal life.
If you are not reborn spiritually when you die then you will be judged to face eternal damnation.
I think we need to clarify our terms:
Soul: a living being which comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life.
Breath of Life (aka Spirit of Life): God's "life giving principle" that animates the inanimate.
Body: (needs no clarification)
A Soul is simply a creature (you, me Hacksaw Jim Duggan, etc.) comprised of a Body and the Breath of Life - and comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and goes immediately out of existence at death when the Breath of Life returns to God and the Body returns to the dust.
No, the Soul is the whole comprised of its parts- the Body and Breath of Life - and at death ceases to exist. Death is the opposite of life, not a continuation thereof.
Luke 16 is a parable - no evidence the dead retain consciousness.
Revelation 6 is symbolic for injustice crying out for divine justice, not dead people retaining consciousness.
Matthew 10:28 says man's ability to destroy our bodies means nothing because God can resurrect whom He chooses, but if God destroys the Soul - the union of the Body and the Breath of Life - that Soul remains eternally dead from which there will be no resurrection.
See that little word "shall"? OK, get ready for a 10 megaton truth bomb, the collateral damage of which is going to be devastating: When the Bible speaks of "physical death" it puts it in the future tense, but when it speaks of "spiritual death" it puts it in the present tense:
"She that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." - 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV
Therefore, Ezekiel, James, Jesus, and all others are prophesying of the future, literal death of the Soul, for the Soul that sinneth is already spiritually dead.
Correct.
...and for those interested in studying this out further...
[quoting old post]
As for the Heb11:13 "these all died in faith"...
[quoting excerpt from Wm Kelly's Commentary on Hebrews 11--I tried to place his first paragraph here in such a way as to draw attention to the various Greek words (etc) used for what is most often translated simply as "by faith" in our English, but which are actually distinct Greek words... (inserts in BLUE are mine [note: my "blue" did not transfer into this post])]
But "that day" is not yet come; and we return to their fathers. From the rising above difficulties insuperable save to God on whose word they relied (verses 11, 12), we have a summary in verses 13-16, which brings out the patriarchs refusing all temptation, and by faith holding on their pilgrim way to death consistently with the accomplishment of promise. This is the reason why the phraseology chances [changes] in the beginning of verse 13.
It is no longer "in" [en] faith, that is, in virtue (or the power) of faith as in verse 2, where such a force is requisite, [...].
Nor further is it the proximate cause, the dynamic or instrumental dative as in verses 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, and again in 17, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 27, 29, 30, and 31.
Still less does it distinguish faith as the means "through" [dia] which, as in 4, 7, 33.
Here (verse 13), if we say "in," we mean according to [kata] faith, contrasted with sight or possession of the things promised. What indeed would be the sense of saying that "by" or "through" faith all these died?
Nor is it "in" i.e. in virtue of faith, but according to [kata] faith as in verse 7 of our chapter, where the precisely same phrase occurs [that is, in v.7c]. [...] Conformity with faith is here predicated of Abraham and those patriarchs that followed, not for perseverance to the end though this was the fact, but in being content to wait for God's fulfilling the promises in due time.
"According to [kata] faith died these all, not having received promises, but from afar having seen and saluted [or, embraced] them, and confessed that they were ["are," historical] strangers and sojourners on the earth [or, land]. For they that say such things clearly show that they seek after a fatherland. And if indeed they were* calling to mind whence they went out, they would have had opportunity to return; but now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly. Wherefore God is not ashamed of them to be called their God; for he prepared for them a city" (verses 13-16).
[...]
The aim in these verses is to present vividly that common pilgrim path in which the patriarchs walked, even to their death, before the Spirit takes up characteristic workings of faith, even in Abraham as well as in each of those that followed, as far as it bore on the subject in hand and the special help of those virtually addressed. How timely and needful it must have been we may gather, because they expand the truth already set forth briefly in verses 9, 10.
Neither death, nor the unseen state that succeeds, was the accomplishment of the promises. On the contrary their death without receiving what was promised was in accordance [kata] with faith, and the witness of its single-eyed integrity. And the accomplishment of the promises supposed, what they could not as yet understand any more than anticipate, the second advent of the Lord even more than the first, although the first was the far more solemn in itself, and the righteous basis of the blessings and glories which await the second. Hence the force of our Lord's word in John 8:56, "Abraham rejoiced that he should see my day, and he saw and was glad." Neither technically nor substantially was the first [advent] mainly in view as has been thought, but that day when God's word and oath shall be vindicated before a wondering and rejoicing world. The patristic dream, which some dream over again, [i.e. the supposition] that it refers to what Abraham beheld after death when our Lord was here, is as unwarranted a perversion as the Socinian interpretation which Meyer justly stigmatises [...]. The design of our Lord and of that chapter is to prove Himself the Light and Word and Son and God Himself; and hence the contrast between Abraham who believed and his seed who did not. Whatever glimpse Abraham may have had of the truth to which the sacrifice on Moriah pointed, it was to the full accomplishment of the promise he looked, and saw by faith what still awaits fulfilment, the period of Christ's manifested glory, "My day." In this hope brightly breaking through the clouds Abraham exulted, and he saw, as faith ever sees, and rejoiced. He, like the rest, saw the promises in their accomplishment from afar off.
And so died these all in accordance with faith as they lived, looking forward to Messiah's day for making good the promises."
--William Kelly, Commentary on Hebrews 11 (From BibleHub) - https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kelly/hebrews/11.htm
[end quoting; bold, underline, and some bracketed inserts mine (in BLUE [note: my "blue" did not transfer into this post])--including the particular Greek words he's referring to--; parentheses and some brackets original]
____________
bottom line: the phrase "these [G3778] all died according to faith" refers to those in vv.8-12 in particular.
[end quoting that post]
If Enoch could taken to heaven to be with God and receive everlasting life before the death and resurrection of Christ, then anyone could be, and the sacrifice of Christ was not necessary.
Your analysis of the Soul of Man is un-Scriptural and against the words of God.
Megabomb on your error - 100%
Stop trying to project your religion upon the words of Christ.
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life." = Two separate Outcomes of the Power of God
He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. = Physical death and physical Resurrection
And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. = Christ said never
Phoneman, Do you believe this?”
this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
ETERNAl Life never dies - never = do not lie against God's words, embrace them and shout them from the highest mountain.
"She that liveth in pleasure IS DEAD while she liveth." - 1 Timothy 5:6 KJV
1 Timothy 5:6 is a Megabomb on your error - but you cannot see how a person can be alive and dead at the same time.
Just as a living breathing human can be dead in sin - SO ALSO can a living breathing human be ALIVE in Christ and NEVER see death.
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
ETERNAl Life never dies - never = do not lie against God's words but embrace them and rejoice.
Believe in JESUS - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
I can think of at least 4 verse that say:
"HATH EVERLASTING / ETERNAL LIFE [PRESENT INDICATIVE]" (said by Jesus, even while Jesus walked this earth [BEFORE the Cross]):
--John 3:36
--John 5:24
--John 6:47
--John 6:54 (which verse, note, says additionally [after saying the "PRESENT indicative" "HATH ETERNAL LIFE" part, says further], "AND I WILL RAISE UP [FUTURE tense] him in the last day" [i.e. in and for the MK age--The Last Day]... distinguishing the present tense "HATH ETERNAL / EVERLASTING LIFE" and the future tense thing which is in addition to that, "and I WILL RAISE UP HIM in the last day" [aka, FOR the MK age... i.e. the "SEVENTH" or "LAST" Day... or, per the Hosea 5:14-6:3 passage, the "THIRD day" from the perspective of His ascension point in time])
[notice also in the negative, in 1Jn3:15 (speaking of certain ones in particular being described there) "...NOT hath eternal life in him abiding"<--why would this even be a thing (or be said), in the scenario you are presenting? (meaning, that no one "has eternal life" NOW [/yet], as you suggest)]
["...Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world"... (after THE SIN entered)]
Greetings, @TheDivineWatermark
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- John 3:13-16 (KJV)
I think that this 13th verse through verse 16 is in regards to the subject of being born again (above). In other words, God’s children can't be as those fallen angels who left their first estate (not being born of woman), but it must be done according to God's plan of salvation.
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. - Jude 1:6 (KJV)
Jesus is telling Nicodemus that if you believe in Jesus Christ and His death on the cross, you will be saved, just as those Israelites who looked to that pole with the snake hanging on it were saved. Although Jesus had not yet died, Nicodemus was well aware of the death of a promised Messiah.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. - John 3:16 (KJV)
—T