Summary of Bible references on the Rapture

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Rhomphaeam

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It is very strange. You can tell Pilate wants nothing to do with judging Jesus and Herod is so happy to see this man who he has heard about. But look who is angry, jealous, even vehemently accusing Jesus. It is the priests and scribes. The accusations that I have heard are truly vehement, referring to the peaceful protests as “mobs”, and referring to words like “peacefully protest” as inciting violence. They liken supporters to the Klan, Hitler, and a cult leader. It is now illegal to be popular.
Much of the great effort that you have put into this thread may be lost when we concern ourselves with a man - even a former President. Much of what you have shared is worth understanding properly - but the mind of those who incite malice and a false accusation of a former President cannot in truth be laid at the side of what took place in Jerusalem when the Chief priests and Pharisees sought the death of Christ by a false accusation. It would be a pity if some of what you have shared were lost to a spirit of anger with false men.
 

ZNP

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Much of the great effort that you have put into this thread may be lost when we concern ourselves with a man - even a former President. Much of what you have shared is worth understanding properly - but the mind of those who incite malice and a false accusation of a former President cannot in truth be laid at the side of what took place in Jerusalem when the Chief priests and Pharisees sought the death of Christ by a false accusation. It would be a pity if some of what you have shared were lost to a spirit of anger with false men.
Yes, I can understand that. My point is that when Joshua entered the good land you could see it. When Absalom rebelled against David you could see it. When Haman almost wiped out all the Jews at the time of Esther everyone could see it. If I look today who is Jezebel? Who is of the family of Ahab? Jonah was protesting in Nineveh concerning their abusive history of slavery concerning the Jews. Where can we see that today? Joel talks of a worldwide pandemic, where can we see that?

I would compare the Stop the Steal rally on Jan 6th to Samson, they were not particularly sanctified in their behavior anymore than Samson was.

My point is that when Jesus was here in His earthly ministry you also could see it, on earth with the world leaders responding.

Therefore I will refer to imperfect current events and people to illustrate these points.
 

Rhomphaeam

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Yes, I can understand that. My point is that when Joshua entered the good land you could see it. When Absalom rebelled against David you could see it. When Haman almost wiped out all the Jews at the time of Esther everyone could see it. If I look today who is Jezebel? Who is of the family of Ahab? Jonah was protesting in Nineveh concerning their abusive history of slavery concerning the Jews. Where can we see that today? Joel talks of a worldwide pandemic, where can we see that?

I would compare the Stop the Steal rally on Jan 6th to Samson, they were not particularly sanctified in their behavior anymore than Samson was.

My point is that when Jesus was here in His earthly ministry you also could see it, on earth with the world leaders responding.

Therefore I will refer to imperfect current events and people to illustrate these points.
The breadth of what you have written in this thread tends to speak into a more prophetic meaning in our time - and that was the meaning of the thread opening post. It speaks of the rapture. That ought to draw a concern for the state of believers - the condition of unbelievers is always the same in truth. Whereas the apostasy of believers is a far more serious issue. That is the sense in which I commented. Yet I cannot say what you yourself intended other than to read what you have said. I think it has great breadth - so much breadth in truth that it would be wasted on trying to make a point about how unbelievers behave - rather to speak of how believers behave. You made some genuinely good points that many may find difficult to reconcile with anything that gives credence to a political precept - no matter what spirit pervades those who are ambitious.

As to who is of the family of Ahab - none are of his family because his entire generations were cursed and judged unto death. It is the spirit that masquerades as a woman that is now visible in our cultures - as it always has been - but today it is a truly breathtaking claim. The woman no longer needs to emulate the king - she can speak as the king. That change is not a political precept either - even though it is easily drawn to cultural and legislative changes that have made it happen. For me - my concern is how it happened and to understand that I have found that it is necessary to first look to the churches and to discern what spirit works in our fleshy ambitions when we claim to uphold spiritual truth and then hand our children over to Satan.

You must know that it isn't possible to truly oppose God as Satan opposes God unless like Satan you know who God is. All the conduct of righteous men made spotless by the blood of Christ is a greater ill effect than the entire legions of Hell. Without the apostate man there can be no falling away from God. I believe this claim I have made here is one of the things that I am chiefly seeking to properly understand. But I share from the position of one who was an Occult Theosepher on the verge of establishing a Satanic Occult Order to draw down wickedness from High Places. It was out of that appalling condition that I was saved. The political narrative of transposing biblical truths onto societies has given me many hours of sleeplessness and often grieved the Spirit - even though I have know that the insight was correct. In fact I met many well educated and politically astute men who knew no less than I did. Yet not one of them was labouring in a true spiritual ambition. Neither were they in any sense perverse and wicked men. They were all born again Christians.

I'm not sure if you will understand my point really - but there may be no gain without risk.
 

ZNP

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How to identify an apostate

Jude 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

They are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts. This refers back to Israel who murmured against God, to the angels who complained about their assigned place, and Sodom and Gomorrah walking after their own lusts. Think about how general this is "murmurers". We think this is trivial but what does the Bible say? Give thanks for all things. We need to see that all things are a blessing from God to those who love God and are called according to purpose. This is the noun form, it is not found anywhere else in the New Testament. The verb form is found elsewhere but not the noun form. This is not a reference to an individual incident of murmuring. Rather you murmur so much it becomes who or what you are. Why were they murmuring, because they lacked faith. If they were filled with faith they would have been like Joshua and Caleb, but rather than confess and repent for their lack of faith they murmur against God as though it is his fault. There is no accountability. This is just like Cain. He didn't listen to God, as a result he didn't have faith, his plan was to please God with his own works, when that fell short he didn't take responsibility rather it was God's fault for preferring Abel's sacrifice and Abel was going to pay for that.

The same is true of those who complain about their assigned place, you are lacking an appreciation for the sovereignty of God. Think about Paul's word I have learned to be content in whatever situation he is in. Instead of complaining learn about how you can do all things in Him. Again, this word as a noun is only found in Jude. Paul says "be angry and sin not". To have an issue with something is OK. Jesus said that if you have an issue with a brother talk to him privately and try to resolve it. It is OK to be offended at someone for some offense. But some people it is not that they complain but rather they are "complainers". This is who they are, this is what they do, there is no resolution, rather they are continual fault finders. The Pharisees found fault with the Lord making their traditions higher than the word of God. Lawyers are trained fault finders. It doesn't matter who the witness is, or how solid the evidence is, they will find fault, that is their job. Fault finding is a valid practice when examining some new strategy or plan. Let's see if we can spot any issue before we implement this. However, if this is who you are all the time this is no longer an action you take occasionally when the need arises but rather it is who you are. It is like a car that has an ships anchor tied to the bumper and is dragging it along behind it. You are this anchor. For example, suppose I am on a football team, I am the tight end, but I would much rather be the quarterback. So what I do is I constantly complain. I complain about the play call. I complain about the quarterback if there is an incomplete pass. I complain if there is a complete pass for five yards saying there was someone else open for ten yards. My complaining is not constructive criticism, rather I complain constantly because I am not satisfied being the tight end, I want to be the quarterback. This is what Jude is talking about. We have many members of the body, everyone has a function, do not envy the other person simply focus on the Lord so that you can grow in the Lord. This is what Balaam did, he wasn't satisfied being a poor prophet. He wanted to be a rich, important prophet with a house filled with gold and silver. We saw this during the election, for example the Republicans did not "respect the science" yet when the Democrats are in power they completely ignore data, science, and all reason. Biden said that all the people who died under Trump should be reason enough to get rid of him as unfit for office. However, more people have died under Biden and now it is all about changing the subject.

This is a process, Cain is the on ramp to the highway, Balaam is rushing headlong down the highway and Korah goes plunging off into the abyss from the highway. Why did Korah rebel? Moses word was convicting him. He wanted to walk according to his own lusts and the word from Moses was shining a light on that and exposing him. So like Cain there is no accountability, someone else will pay for his sins. Like Balaam he is not satisfied with his place, he is jealous of Moses and instead of saying "I want to be leader" he says "everyone is holy". It is a slimy kind of hypocrisy. The world church says the same thing, we are all holy, brotherhood of man. Yet the Pope plans on being the leader and since the Evangelical Christians reject him he also rejects them from his "brotherhood of man". Ultimately this leads to rebellion, who made Jesus lord, I will do as I please. This is why scoffers scoff. When they passed the LGBTQ laws I argued that letting boys into the girls bathroom would result in fornication and rape in the bathroom. Wow, I got attacked from the scoffers yet a few months later that is precisely what happened. When they said that boys could compete as girls if they "identified as girls" I said they would take over girls sports. Again, the attack I got from the scoffers. That was absurd, the trans movement is pure as the driven snow. I said that a college scholarship can be worth $300,000 don't you think that some boys who cannot make the boys team will identify as a girl to get that scholarship? Oh, no, no, no that is a lie. Well here we are a few months later and it couldn't be any clearer that it is the truth.

They speak great swelling words -- this is what the antichrist does. This is like the words of the song

"I am just a poor boy
Though my story's seldom told
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest"

I was stunned at how many people liked what Biden was saying during the campaign even though it was so transparently a lie. The only bills Biden had ever been associated with were a catastrophe and were the most racists bills around. You could find multiple quotes by him that were as racist as they come. He claimed he had 30 years of foreign policy experience and would do a better job than Trump who had kept us out of a war and brokered a peace treaty with Israel which everyone else thought would be impossible. Yet when you looked at that 30 years of experience it was nothing but a dismal failure. The reason these ones speak "great swelling words of vanity" is because people listen to it and fall for it.

I think it was Mike Tyson who said everyone talks a big game until they get punched in the nose.

And flatter others for their personal advantage.

This is how people play politics to advance in an organization. When you see this in the church you know you have the apostasy. Think of the church like a football team or basketball team. No one thinks Tom Brady is any good but year after year, game after game he proves that he is until no one can deny it. You don't do that by playing politics and flattering others, you do that on the field. Likewise with Michael Jordan, you can see who is real and who isn't. This is how it should be in the church, we may have some member who no one thinks has a gift but if it is manifested everyone should be able to see it and appreciate it. Likewise we can have another member who advances in the church due to everything but the Holy Spirit. If that is the case you have the apostasy.
 

ZNP

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I'm not sure if you will understand my point really - but there may be no gain without risk.
I have only read it once, I will try to read it over more carefully again. I appreciate anyone who speaks from their experience and as much as you are appalled by your past sins know that the repentance from these things is the foundation of a ministry where you can help others escape. My first reading of this gives me the sense that you are warning about errors you have made and I appreciate that. I can also appreciate that the usefulness of illustrating some of these passages with current events may have waned a little bit.
 

ZNP

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Protecting yourself from the Apostasy

17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

The first sixteen verses hit the apostasy very hard, now Jude turns to the saints. The first thing he does is to tell them to remember the word of the apostles. This epistle has hit the Old Testament, both the history and the prophecy as well as the spiritual books from the saints that are not in the Old Testament and now he turns to the New Testament Apostles. All of these words can help you set your mind on the spirit. Every word of God is profitable for instruction. In particular the words of the apostles are the protection against apostasy. You can't remember them if you don't know them and you will not know them if you don't read them, study them, and meditate on them. The word of God is not according to natural wisdom. God's thoughts are not our thoughts. We need a renewed mind and we will only get that through the transformation of the Spirit. The cross of Christ is foolishness to the apostates but to us it is the wisdom of God. That is because we are saved through the cross and this indicates the apostates do not know God's salvation through the cross. Paul warned that grievous wolves would come in and not spare the flock. Wolves are not sheep. Paul also said that men would arise from among the church speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. There are Christian cults and they focus on members of Christ's body, they don't go after the unsaved. These cults are built around an exaggerated truth and they do not embrace the whole counsel of God. The epistle to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, representing the apostolic church, appears to have been faithful to Paul's admonition. They try those who claim to be apostles and are able to determine the false ones. However, they had left their first love. Doctrinally sound but without love, the first love that they had for the Lord. This is how the apostasy operates, get you unbalanced. Scoffers can be very insulting, if you descend to their level all of a sudden you find yourself having left your first love. When they walk according to their own lusts you can become quite offended, but be careful, remember the admonition "hate the sin, love the sinner". Our first love is the Lord who came to call all men to repentance. The Lord gave Himself that all men might be saved. So then how do we respond? First we listen to the Lord and learn from Him. Everything we endure He endured. Second we obey Him, we don't run after our own desires. The process of transformation involves the Lord revealing if we are otherwise minded in anything and the reality is we are otherwise minded in many things. Third, we need to be content with our station. You don't need a title, or a position to speak the word of God. All things that have come into being have come into being through the word of God. If you have that faith then the word you speak can be very powerful even if you are nothing and no one. Now, if you can follow with these steps you will enter into the spiritual warfare and will then learn we are a corporate body. If you are divided, separated out from the body you can become prey. I have seen 20 hyenas surround a full grown male lion and if it were not for other lions coming to his aid they would have killed him. Someone who is truly knit into the Body would not murmur against the brothers and sisters because they would realize they are often his salvation as they have his back. Then you see that the warfare is like an army, each person is fitly framed in the body, uniquely positioned to help in the warfare. Instead of complaining about your position you come to appreciate the role all of your brothers and sisters play. Only then can the church truly be the city of God. This is why Satan's strategy is to make factions, divide the body. A heresy is a school of thought, just like all the various denominations and cults. Each one has their own special teaching in order to divide the saints. These doctrines come from them following their natural wisdom rather than the wisdom which is from above. Now this will actually help you grow in grace. It may sound strange but remember Paul says to "give thanks for all things" and that includes these heresies. The way I understand this I like to illustrate with Michael Jordan. When he came into the NBA he was a very gifted scorer and dominated the league in scoring. As a result teams put their best defender on him, and since that didn't work they began to design their entire defense to stop him. The Pistons had something called "the Jordan rules". They were brutal, eventually the league changed many of the rules because of that, but this made Jordan a better player. Everyday he was being tutored by the very best in the NBA on how to play defense. After a little while he became one of the very best defenders in the league. To have a guy that was dominating on both ends of the court was very unique. But even so they were unable to beat the Pistons, forcing him and the whole team to hit the weight room. He had been quick and agile, but now he added strong as well. He could play against the LA Lakers and the NY Knicks. He could play fast paced game of the Lakers and the half court game of the Celtics. But he still needed to improve his game even more because teams double teamed him during the 4th quarter and he famously passed to Paxson in the fourth quarter because they were leaving him open and so after making himself a fully rounded player he learned to add assists to his arsenal and to trust his teammates. He didn't need the preeminence. When Phil Jackson became the coach he instituted a strategy that took the ball out of his hand and resulted in him scoring fewer points. However, it also made it very difficult for teams to double team Jordan without paying the price. This is how I understand Pauls word that it is necessary for there to be heresies so that those who are approved would be manifested. Think about the result. Several of the other players also became hall of fame players. Pippen had an extraordinary career, looking at his stats he was a truly all time great player. Would that have been the case without Jordan as a teammate? He still would have been great but maybe would not have ever won a championship. What about Rodman? His career had hit the rocks when the Bulls picked him up. I don't know if he would have been hall of fame if he hadn't gone to the Bulls. He was great with the Pistons but with the Bulls he was a champion and a hall of famer. The apostasy divides us, the Spirit knits us together. The apostasy is based on human intellect and thought, the Spirit lifts us to a higher plane. The apostasy is soulish, the true church is spiritual. To be soulish is to be self conscious, to be spiritual is to be God conscious. The apostasy is the natural man, the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. For example, a hologram is a technique where we can create a 3 dimensional image and put all the information on a 2 dimensional sheet. If you look at it with your natural eyes it is foggy, not clear. But if you illuminate it with lasers designed to see it then you will get this dramatic 3 dimensional image. In the same way the natural man can only create two dimensional images but if you are in the spirit you will be getting these three dimensional holograms. This is why those in the apostasy see the Bible as myths, old stories that are no longer relevant, etc. They are looking at the Bible with natural eyes and the Bible can only be seen properly with the Spirit. When you look at the Bible with the Spirit the image of Christ will be alive.

Believers have the spirit. These ones may be on a very high plane naturally but they don't have the spirit, so they are not saved. They receive not the things of God for they are foolishness to them. Let's spend a 100 years to build a boat to save 8 people. Let's defeat this army with the jawbone of an ass. Or how about this one, some carpenter's son is crucified 1900 years ago and as a result the entire universe is redeemed.
 

Rhomphaeam

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Wolves are not sheep. Paul also said that men would arise from among the church speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them. There are Christian cults and they focus on members of Christ's body, they don't go after the unsaved.
I notice that Paul, around 63 AD urged Timothy to remain in Ephesus (1 Tim 1:3), this is at least five years after Paul warned the Ephesians saying “after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them” (Acts 20:29-30). This warning was in 57AD. I also see that in 1 Timothy chapter four Paul also tells Timothy that “the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron...........In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following” (1 Tim 4:1-6). We can see that all of these warnings and instructions to Timothy, including 1 Timothy 3:1-13 (qualification of Elders), 1 Timothy 1:19; Titus 1:9; 1 Timothy 5:17-21 (Purpose of Elders) and 1 Timothy 4:13, 14 (The need for Accuracy) all paid off for the church at Ephesus, because in Revelation we read that the church at Ephesus in 96AD was still managing to specifically resist false prophets and false teachers (Revelation 2:1-7). What this tells me is that although Paul committed the Ephesian elders to ‘God and to the word of His grace” it was the word of His grace being taught and preached through Timothy. In fact when we read in Paul’s letter to Timothy in 63AD what the substance of his warnings to the Ephesian elders in 57AD was - and being; “As I exhorted thee to tarry at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a different doctrine” (1 Tim 1:3-6)......we see what kind of men would arise, speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them.

Yet as your comment says these men are not wolves - they that would arise from among the brethren. And taking your comment at face value you have characterised these men as cult leaders and set their chief cultic character as men who are focusing on the flocks and not the unsaved. Is that correct?
 

Rhomphaeam

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The apostasy divides us, the Spirit knits us together. The apostasy is based on human intellect and thought, the Spirit lifts us to a higher plane. The apostasy is soulish, the true church is spiritual. To be soulish is to be self conscious, to be spiritual is to be God conscious. The apostasy is the natural man, the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. For example, a hologram is a technique where we can create a 3 dimensional image and put all the information on a 2 dimensional sheet. If you look at it with your natural eyes it is foggy, not clear. But if you illuminate it with lasers designed to see it then you will get this dramatic 3 dimensional image. In the same way the natural man can only create two dimensional images but if you are in the spirit you will be getting these three dimensional holograms. This is why those in the apostasy see the Bible as myths, old stories that are no longer relevant, etc. They are looking at the Bible with natural eyes and the Bible can only be seen properly with the Spirit. When you look at the Bible with the Spirit the image of Christ will be alive.
The distinction you make here is between the natural man and the spiritual man. I suppose to assert your use of the term soul then it may be expressed as a distinction between the spirit and the soul. That may be best seen in Hebrews 4:12. To be fair you haven't drawn down to the individual here in the above comment in as much as you haven't spoken of any individual. But I am assuming that one would have to speak of the individual man - spirit, soul and body - if anyone reading your posts could derive a sense of their own walk - were it to be perceived to have faltered into apostasy. On the other hand you seem to be saying that apostasy is characteristically natural wisdom and a faithful and obedient walk is a spiritual mind. How do you reconcile those two things. The individual walk - being renewed in our thinking to be more than mere men - and the collective effect of the coming man of sin and the condition of the church in such a time? Is the church to be changed? Is the man of sin to be received as Christ? Big questions - but I am chiefly asking about the distinction between spirit and soul as you are intending it meaning.
 

ZNP

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I notice that Paul, around 63 AD urged Timothy to remain in Ephesus (1 Tim 1:3), this is at least five years after Paul warned the Ephesians saying “after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them” (Acts 20:29-30). This warning was in 57AD. I also see that in 1 Timothy chapter four Paul also tells Timothy that “the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron...........In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following” (1 Tim 4:1-6). We can see that all of these warnings and instructions to Timothy, including 1 Timothy 3:1-13 (qualification of Elders), 1 Timothy 1:19; Titus 1:9; 1 Timothy 5:17-21 (Purpose of Elders) and 1 Timothy 4:13, 14 (The need for Accuracy) all paid off for the church at Ephesus, because in Revelation we read that the church at Ephesus in 96AD was still managing to specifically resist false prophets and false teachers (Revelation 2:1-7). What this tells me is that although Paul committed the Ephesian elders to ‘God and to the word of His grace” it was the word of His grace being taught and preached through Timothy. In fact when we read in Paul’s letter to Timothy in 63AD what the substance of his warnings to the Ephesian elders in 57AD was - and being; “As I exhorted thee to tarry at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a different doctrine” (1 Tim 1:3-6)......we see what kind of men would arise, speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after them.

Yet as your comment says these men are not wolves - they that would arise from among the brethren. And taking your comment at face value you have characterised these men as cult leaders and set their chief cultic character as men who are focusing on the flocks and not the unsaved. Is that correct?
Wolves are not sheep, any believer has the spirit, the verse in Jude says they don't have the spirit and as a result they are discerning the word of God naturally, according to the natural man. If you don't have the spirit you are unsaved. All believers have been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ, sealed by the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, taught by the Spirit, led by the Spirit and as a result can cry Abba Father.
 

ZNP

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The distinction you make here is between the natural man and the spiritual man. I suppose to assert your use of the term soul then it may be expressed as a distinction between the spirit and the soul. That may be best seen in Hebrews 4:12. To be fair you haven't drawn down to the individual here in the above comment in as much as you haven't spoken of any individual. But I am assuming that one would have to speak of the individual man - spirit, soul and body - if anyone reading your posts could derive a sense of their own walk - were it to be perceived to have faltered into apostasy. On the other hand you seem to be saying that apostasy is characteristically natural wisdom and a faithful and obedient walk is a spiritual mind. How do you reconcile those two things. The individual walk - being renewed in our thinking to be more than mere men - and the collective effect of the coming man of sin and the condition of the church in such a time? Is the church to be changed? Is the man of sin to be received as Christ? Big questions - but I am chiefly asking about the distinction between spirit and soul as you are intending it meaning.
The distinction between soul and spirit is a very big topic, but in brief I consider the Tabernacle to be a picture of the 3 part man with the Holy place depicting our soul and the Holy of Holies depicting our spirit. We enter into the Spirit through prayer (incense altar) and in that cloud of prayer of God's word we can enter. In our soul we can get light and life from the word, mingle that together in our prayer and use that to enter into the Spirit.
 

ZNP

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6,000 year count


6,000 year count -- in 1948th year is when Abraham is born to be the father of faith.

Likewise 1948 years after the 2nd Adam you are going to have the birth of Israel.

Jesus is born on the 3,983rd year of mankind. This is important because he must be 17 before he can legally be sacrificed as a lamb, the lamb must be 4 days old and 4,000 years would be 4 days. Joseph's ministry began when he was 17 years old, that was when he brought a bad report to his father concerning his brothers.

The passover feast requires each man to take a lamb for their house on the 10th day of the month. Take care of them until the 14th day when all the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight.

Likewise this puts the 6,000th year in 2017. That puts the 120th jubilee in 2017.

2017 is exactly 70 years after 1947, the year the UN announced they would give Israel back to the Jews.

Exactly 50 years from the time of the six day war that the Jews won back Jerusalem.

Exactly 100 years from the Balfour Accord when the British announced they would give Jerusalem back to the Jews.

After six days Jesus led up Peter, James and John to the mount of transfiguration (according to Matthew). What day is after the sixth day? The seventh day. Why not just say on the 7th day? Because the message is that after six days the Lord will appear to two types of people, Moses representing those that died and Elijah representing those that don't die. This means we have to get past 2017 for this event.
 

Rhomphaeam

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Wolves are not sheep, any believer has the spirit, the verse in Jude says they don't have the spirit and as a result they are discerning the word of God naturally, according to the natural man. If you don't have the spirit you are unsaved. All believers have been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ, sealed by the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, taught by the Spirit, led by the Spirit and as a result can cry Abba Father.
I was rather thinking about the other men spoken about in your @ #3,027 comment where you said, "Paul also said that men would arise from among the church speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them."

Acts 20:29 is the most common verse that brethren cite when speaking about the meaning of the term wolf. In this instance, the term used by the Apostle Paul is grievous wolf. The Greek says, βαρύς (barus) - of grievous, which means to press a severe burden on a person. It also means vicious and cruel. Without mercy. It is very different from the term used in Matthew 7:15, where we read of ravenous wolves. The Greek says, αρπαγες (harpage) - of ravenous, which means to destroy, rob and steal. In Matthew 7:15 the Lord warned of false prophets as ravenous wolves. These ravenous wolves come into the flocks; they are not of the flock. In the same way the grievous wolf of Acts 20:29 warning comes into the flock - he is not of the flock. So Acts 20:29 speaks of the grievous wolf.

In Acts 20:30 Paul also identified that there are men who arise from within the flock. Yet Paul does not call these men, wolves. Those whom Paul said would come into the flocks, were grievous wolves, and in saying “Also of your own selves, shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them,” Paul identifies a different class of men. Of this diverse group of men we see the Greek conjunctive καὶ - where the object is λαλοῦντες διεστραμμένα τοῦ - ‘speaking perverse things.’ The principle characteristic of these men is speaking perverse things. Paul does not call the men who speak perverse things, wolves, but he does identify that they will draw disciples after themselves. The proper understanding of this secondary group of men Paul identifies prophetically, is that they ought to be called heretics, and not wolves. Paul also identified who the grievous wolves would be.

“You yourselves know, from the first day that I set foot in Asia, how I was with you the whole time, serving the Lord with all humility and with tears and with trials which came upon me through the plots of the Jews; how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house, solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.” Acts 20:18-21

It was the Jews who were trying to come into the flocks of Christ in the first century in order to reassert a full requirement of the Law of Moses upon believers. These Jews were actually opposing Christ Himself in the very same spirit that the Pharisees opposed Christ face to face in Judaea. What characterised those men of Judea was a desire to murder Christ and what characterised these men of whom Paul speaks, is their willingness to murder him. This corresponds with reality, in that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. Just as the Lord told some of the Pharisees that their father was the devil, so Paul recognised that those Jews, whose representatives, were coming into the flocks, were murderers in no less a meaning. In Paul’s case they were literally trying to murder him because he was able to resist them.

I believe that it is essential to know who we are speaking about when we incite a claim that has it that men are wolves. It may be especially important when we attribute to men unbelief and so make of them vessels fit for destruction. What is left for a man we assign to unbelief if we say to the flocks they are wolves of Acts 20:29 then to another class of men Acts 20:30 the term wolf also - and yet we intend to speak about the flocks of God?

So my question now, brother is do you see the men of Acts 20:29 and Acts 20:30 as the same type of man - namely all wolves?

Perhaps the distinction can be found in:

“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me.” .John 10:11-14 NASB

John 10:11-14 tells us that the principal character of the hireling is cowardice. And regardless as to the idea that a hireling is someone who is working for pay, the meaning is cowardice.

We can see this principle clearly in the example of Paul, who said, “For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. “I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” Paul kept these wolves out of the flock at considerable cost to himself, and by that means, proved himself to be a good shepherd. No doubt it was for this precise reason that he was able to say, “Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.”

One of the chief difficulties we have when seeking to understand spiritual reality is that we so often miss ordinary reason. By abrogating common sense, we may lose the simplicity of a thing and end up chasing after mystical explanations. We either receive our understanding by a revelation of the Holy Spirit or else we use our reasonable minds to lay hold of the Scriptures properly. If we claim to have received revelation and then share contrary to a simple reading of Scripture; are we not in danger of becoming false ourselves?

In looking at this passage from John 10:11-14 we can see that there are three principle actors. The good Shepherd, the Hireling and the Wolf. Unless we see the detail of this, while seeking to understand the biblical wolf, we may find it difficult to comprehend the hireling altogether and lose the meaning of the wolf as well.
 

ZNP

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Please notice how Satan is dressed as he comes in this midnight sleigh.
 

ZNP

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So my question now, brother is do you see the men of Acts 20:29 and Acts 20:30 as the same type of man - namely all wolves?
Several comments.

1. Korah, a type of the apostasy was one that rose up from their midst and spoke perverse things trying to draw people after him. He went down alive into Sheol. Cain was Abel's brother, the Fallen angels were at one time in the position given to them by God, Korah was a prince in Israel and Balaam was a real prophet. So in that sense I would not make a distinction over the Judaizers and someone who was raised up in the church.

2. Speaking or believing in a heresy does not make you an apostate. You can be deceived, you can be misled, you can be "otherwise minded". Accusing people of being false prophets because you disagree with their doctrine is a very slippery slope. I would say that the Bible tells us to focus on the doctrine, not the person.

3. All judgement belongs to the Lord. There is no reason for me to claim this or that person is a wolf or some other designation. I can warn of doctrines. John says not to receive anyone who denies that Jesus came in the flesh. Jude is naming Biblical examples which have been given to us so that we can identify the apostasy, what it looks like, what it sounds like, how it creeps in, what the fruit is like, etc. The Lord said you will know them by their fruit.

4. Consider Paul, was Saul of Tarsus an apostate? By Jude's definition he was until his conversion. Consider James, the one from whom the Judaizers came from in Galatians. Was he the head of this cult, this heresy? He was until he repented. James gives us the best cure for being in a cult in his epistle. What about Jude? Was he the second in command under James? I don't know but I do know the Lord gave him the ministry for identifying the apostasy. The apostates do not see the Body of Christ, Paul after his conversion gave us the most all inclusive view of the Body of Christ.

So the question to me is not something I need to answer. Everyone will have to stand one day before the Lord where they will be judged by Him, Jesus will figure this out.

That said there is a very big warning in the NT that a lot of people miss. Paul tells us that these deceivers they "deceive and are being deceived". They deceive themselves. Jesus tells us they will come to Him and say "Lord, lord did we not..." and He will say "depart from Me workers of lawlessness, I never knew you". They were deceived. Then in Revelation we are told that the Great White Throne is where the Lord will judge men and decide who gets thrown into the Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15) and yet, prior to this judgement it tells us that the False prophet and the Beast are already in the Lake of fire (Revelation 19:20-21). What happened?

I have a theory, not a doctrine, and I have only the flimsiest of evidence. But I think these two were so deceived they came to the Lord at the judgement seat of Christ saying "Lord, Lord did we not do all these great signs in your name" and demanded to be judged with the believers. So the Lord said, OK, and at that judgement tossed them in the lake of fire. The point is, and this is a fundamental Biblical doctrine, those that deceive others will wind up deceiving themselves.
 

Rhomphaeam

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So the question to me is not something I need to answer. Everyone will have to stand one day before the Lord where they will be judged by Him, Jesus will figure this out.
Then the Lord will hold you to account for directing the flocks of God (in a forum at least) and yet you do not see the need to make a distinction or to expressly unify a meaning.

You also say that you have a theory and not a doctrine and I am not certain if your theory is in regard to the false prophet and the beast of revelation are already in the Lake of Fire prior to the last judgement of the Great White Throne.

I understand how difficult these things are to express (I mean the prophetic direction of revelation) and similarly to resist doctrinal claims that divide the churches and give rise to schisms within churches.

Reading your words, brother you make some very important allusions - I would call them prophetic allusions - but the linguistic term would be dial.

For example in this post I am now quoting:

That said there is a very big warning in the NT that a lot of people miss. Paul tells us that these deceivers they "deceive and are being deceived".
I have removed the latter part. But this form of words speaks into the difficulty and in a very real sense answers my question - albeit not directly. It alludes to a condition which you use to resist being precise - but in the prophetic dial it speaks of a condition that makes Acts 20:29 wolves and Acts 20:30 a connected reality that essentially speaks of spiritual apostasy and not simply disobedience or even being deceived in some way.

I said @#3,023 "You must know that it isn't possible to truly oppose God as Satan opposes God unless like Satan you know who God is. All the conduct of righteous men made spotless by the blood of Christ is a greater ill effect than the entire legions of Hell."

That was a specific statement and it speaks of false prophets of which we have an epidemic today - but it speaks of born again men and women who call themselves prophets or else misuse a gift of prophecy to direct the churches. The apostasy you are speaking about is a sense of the Law and the Prophets - whereas the NT prophetic ministry is a different reality - which as I say you allude to in some of your writings - and is given to a far more serious condition than anything experienced in Israel in the past. It will produce the false prophet who will herald another Christ. That circumstance means that we cannot make simple discursive claims - whether by prophetic dial of exegesis nor my a misuse of the gift of prophecy or else to be called a prophet.
 

ZNP

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Charge to the Believers

Jude 20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Building What? Building ourselves? This sounds a whole lot like Paul's word about "working out your own salvation with fear and trembling" and Paul's word about building with gold, silver and precious stones. It also sounds like the 9 steps given by Peter: giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. How do you build up your faith? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Get into the word of God. This is our responsibility.

Praying we pray in the Holy spirit.

Keeping We are also charged to "keep yourselves in the Love of God. This means to keep us in the place where we can enjoy the Father's love. God will not stop loving us, the issue is are we in the place where we can enjoy that love. Jn 15:10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 1Jn 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Looking for This word is translated as both looking for and waiting for.

Are you listening?

There is a progression here from Faith to love to hope. Now let's consider this in light of this thread on Christmas. You can buy a gift or you can make one. You can act out of prayer before the Lord on what would be best or you can simply go to a store and say I have so much money to spend, that looks good. You can keep yourself in the love of God or like the prodigal son you can cash in your chips and go to the parties and waste your inheritance. You can spend the evening "looking for" and waiting for the blessed appearance of our savior or you can become a scoffer comparing the Lord's coming to the stories told to children about Santa.

Jude 22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

The exhortation is for us to grow and there needs to be a response from us to be a witness, that is our sacred duty. Jude tells us to have compassionate understanding on those who have sincere doubts. Just because someone doesn't believe your word does not make them an apostate, they can have sincere doubts. This is the last NT mention of being merciful. We are at the door of the Lord's coming back, at the very last moment there will still be those who doubt and need our mercy. The first mention of mercy is "blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy". The first mention of doubt in the NT was when Peter was sinking in the sea. Another way to look at what Jude is saying is "be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear".

Singing a love song

Mercy mixed with fear -- one idea is you can see that this one is in danger of eternal damnation, another way to look at this is the way in which Lot was saved. Think about witnessing in the family -- interceding like Abraham. Another understanding is that pulling someone out of the fire could put you into a situation where you get pulled in rather than them getting pulled out. I don't think there is a right answer, I think we stay open to the Lord and He could use this word in many different ways. Another interpretation is don't be tempted to tone down the gospel. Yes we must be merciful but at the same time we need to be fearful of the Lord that we share the full counsel of God and provide a very clear warning concerning sin. We can see these various interpretations in the story of Christmas. Some embrace the practice thinking they could use it for the gospel and instead got pulled down. Some are warning of eternal damnation, idol worship, and the dangers. Others are tempted to temper their message, let's not offend anyone.

The assurance of our Savior


24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Know the one in whom we have put our trust. Finish the race strong! The Lord will be glorified. The reason Jude has shared this epistle is so that we would have great joy at the Lord's return. It is not good enough to believe in God, the Satanists do that, you have to believe in God our Savior. We do not get to verse 25 without the cross of Christ. Verse 25 reminds us of Hebrews 1:3. We can all see the hand of Paul in the book of Hebrews, I have wondered if James also worked on it, and now perhaps even Jude had a hand in it. What does verse 25 mean? It means that if we are raptured to the presence of the Lord our savior we will be dancing with great joy! The glory, the majesty, the power, the authority, it will be a fantastic wedding feast!

Make sure that Satan doesn't trick you into exchanging your inheritance for a bowl of soup and a lie.
 

ZNP

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Then the Lord will hold you to account for directing the flocks of God (in a forum at least) and yet you do not see the need to make a distinction or to expressly unify a meaning.

You also say that you have a theory and not a doctrine and I am not certain if your theory is in regard to the false prophet and the beast of revelation are already in the Lake of Fire prior to the last judgement of the Great White Throne.

I understand how difficult these things are to express (I mean the prophetic direction of revelation) and similarly to resist doctrinal claims that divide the churches and give rise to schisms within churches.

Reading your words, brother you make some very important allusions - I would call them prophetic allusions - but the linguistic term would be dial.

For example in this post I am now quoting:



I have removed the latter part. But this form of words speaks into the difficulty and in a very real sense answers my question - albeit not directly. It alludes to a condition which you use to resist being precise - but in the prophetic dial it speaks of a condition that makes Acts 20:29 wolves and Acts 20:30 a connected reality that essentially speaks of spiritual apostasy and not simply disobedience or even being deceived in some way.

I said @#3,023 "You must know that it isn't possible to truly oppose God as Satan opposes God unless like Satan you know who God is. All the conduct of righteous men made spotless by the blood of Christ is a greater ill effect than the entire legions of Hell."

That was a specific statement and it speaks of false prophets of which we have an epidemic today - but it speaks of born again men and women who call themselves prophets or else misuse a gift of prophecy to direct the churches. The apostasy you are speaking about is a sense of the Law and the Prophets - whereas the NT prophetic ministry is a different reality - which as I say you allude to in some of your writings - and is given to a far more serious condition than anything experienced in Israel in the past. It will produce the false prophet who will herald another Christ. That circumstance means that we cannot make simple discursive claims - whether by prophetic dial of exegesis nor my a misuse of the gift of prophecy or else to be called a prophet.
I have come across this in my life. I have known brothers that I was sure knew the Lord only to learn that they were "false prophets" and by that I don't mean that their speaking was not the word of God but rather their motivation was to make merchandise of the saints.

If Michael is not willing to make a railing accusation against Satan then I also am not willing to make a railing accusation. I will be a witness at their trial, but it will be the Lord who judges.

What is very, very clear is that intentionally deceiving God's people is a very serious thing. Jesus said it would be better for you to have a millstone around your neck and to be cast into the sea.

What is also very clear is that the most successful at deceiving God's people are those who are very well versed in the Bible.
 

Rhomphaeam

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I have a theory, not a doctrine, and I have only the flimsiest of evidence. But I think these two were so deceived they came to the Lord at the judgement seat of Christ saying "Lord, Lord did we not do all these great signs in your name" and demanded to be judged with the believers. So the Lord said, OK, and at that judgement tossed them in the lake of fire. The point is, and this is a fundamental Biblical doctrine, those that deceive others will wind up deceiving themselves.
To this expressly, brother.

If Michael is not willing to make a railing accusation against Satan then I also am not willing to make a railing accusation. I will be a witness at their trial, but it will be the Lord who judges.
You don't need to make a railing accusation against Satan - his end is already known. As with the false prophet and the beast of Revelation. Their end is already known and so no accusation is needed. I would also shy away from the term accusation even when speaking the truth unless it is to accuse oneself properly. Jesus spoke of Judas as being a devil. John 6:70. That term devil comes from the greek διάβολός meaning accuser. There is no basis for any accusations when speaking of the brethren - and yet if we cannot even address the time we live in - neither is there a basis for knowing how to judge the church as we must if we say that we are called into the prophetic ministry.

Accusation
Before this cause did once besought my youth,
Undoubted measure in measure full conceived.
Betided truth of nothing left for gain or hope,
Complete the fall that fall did make to press.

Refrain
Rise up my chosen child of hope rise up
Rise up, and in thy supplication flee to Christ.
If now to rise on wings of faith in Him.
In hope to fly on eagle’s wings.

Lament
Hail grief bespoken pressed and sorrow known.
In fixtures made of certain hope and purpose.
In shadows long and darkness passed away.
The mountains of thy hidden cart and all thy bed.
Thy valleys formed, thy seams thy sockets made.
Thy gaze that once did worship cause to draw.
In all thy labours pressed and tore His service due.

Retort
Hail Christ and all His works have crushed thy head.
Laid bear now you dread fame, laid bear your fables.
Cast down capricious naive your crown of shame.
Your kingdom set by fire within, consumed and lost.
This gain in Christ is full and all complete in Him.

Victory
Thy loss is gain beneath His feet, and gain for Christ.
Thy works undone, His light made light of life.
His light shines on and Truth is ample made.
The fruit of faith, eternal hope and hopes new song.

Jubilation
Rise up my chosen child of hope rise up.
Rise up and in thy supplication flee to Christ.
At last to fly and rise on wings of faith in Him.
By faith to fly on eagle’s wings.

Robert Chisholm (Rhomphaeam)

Resisting wolves is a simple matter - they have no power to resist the prophetic ministry. Resisting deceived men in a spirit of prophecy is a matter of wrestling with volitional and fleshy minds - and in the churches that is a grief and a terrible burden. It seems to myself at least that your writings have made an allusion to a reality you have no power to understand. That power is the apostate prophet working in the true knowledge of God. A man who becomes a true wolf when he transgresses the boundary to devouring the flocks. Such men are utterly vile and their end is death.

So can I ask you why the video that speaks of Lucifer (a mistaken name) is important because in the dream he comes in a red coat with a black belt around his girdle?