Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Friend]

Do you know what "Secret" means? Well, in the bible Mystery means a Secret by God's Silence, because the word used means "TO SHUT THE MOUTH"

When we get to heaven I will be proven correct, and you will be told you were wrong.

Is the Woman being changed also? Or is a CODE for Israel?

You haven't got a clue on the book of Revelation, you can't even get the timing of the Two-witnesses down, the way you divide it up is really mind boggling for a supposed engineer.

When Jesus said 10 Virgin Brides did he mean that? Or was the 10 Brides a stand in fir the Church, why doge that? Because it proves you wrong, that's why you dodge it.

Those Jews who are the 3-5 million who repent, flee Judea right before God's Wrath falls. That wrath happens in Revelation 8, not in Rev. 6, thus in Rev. 7 we see them fleeing, the Multitude seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come from the 70th week, if you knew the bible you would be able to deduce that but pride is a hard trait to overcome. The Martyrs under the altar at the 5th Seal are specifically told they MUST WAIT until the Bests 42 month reign ends because they are told they must wait until all of their brothers have died on like manner as they did before they can get vengeance on those people on earth who killed them ? Can you add that up? And in Rev. 20:4 we see those who refused the Mark of the Beast and were this killed are only raised AND Judged AFTER Jesus Second Coming, so those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come out of the 70th week, so that means the can only come out of the Great Church Age Tribulation period, and 2000 is GREATER than 7. I prove all these facts, you ignored them on Worthy and run and hide from the facts, that's why I never get in a conversation with you, you don't care about the facts as written in the bible. Bible truths via scriptures are an inconvenience to your understandings it seems, even when proven wrong, you just dodge the facts and keep going.

The Rev. 12:17 Remnant CAN NOT be Jews, it can ONLY be the Remnant Church, its right thee n the scriptures, and it goes over your head or you just dodge it. When you get to heaven and remember all the people you called dumb, and ignorant, than see you were the one who was wrong on almost everything, you will be in utter shock.

Hello: Not exactly sure what your talking about, But I had two senior members warn me about all my posting; so I will be respectfully bowing out of here......... All the Best!!

 

[lamad]

When we get to heaven I will be proven correct, and you will be told you were wrong.
You haven't got a clue on the book of Revelation,

Let's not get into pride here.

you can't even get the timing of the Two-witnesses down, the way you divide it up is really mind boggling for a supposed engineer.

I wish I knew what he said about the Two witnesses. I hope you know they show up and begin their testimony only days before the midpoint of the week (probably 3.5 days) and most of their testimony is in the last half of the week.

That wrath happens in Revelation 8, not in Rev. 6,

What does the WORD say? The DAY of His wrath begins in Rev. 6 at the 6th seal. But the first EVENT with His wrath will be the first trumpet judgment. You are half right here. What is the meaning? I think God begins to get angry at the 6th seal, but His wrath will not be felt on earth until the first trumpet.

thus in Rev. 7 we see them fleeing, the Multitude seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come from the 70th week, if you knew the bible you would be able to deduce that but pride is a hard trait to overcome.

Say WHAT? There is no fleeing in chapter 7. NONE. Jesus told those living in Judea to flee when they see the abomination. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6. Chapter 7 is an intermission between the 6th and 7th seals while God and John "rearrange the set." What do I mean? Before judgment begins (first trumpet) God wants to see TWO EVENTS accomplished first: the sealing of the 144,000 for their protection, and then the CHURCH seen safely in the throne room of heaven.

You are correct, that great crowd comes from the church age, NOT the 70th week: John does not begin the 70th week until the 7th seal.

The Martyrs under the altar at the 5th Seal are specifically told they MUST WAIT until the Bests 42 month reign ends because they are told they must wait until all of their brothers have died on like manner as they did before they can get vengeance on those people on earth who killed them ?

Sorry, but this is MYTH. They are told they have to wait for the full number killed as they were - but the meaning is, killed as church age martyrs. The 70th week has not yet begun and won't until chapter 8. They want to know when God will judge their murders. Judgment will begin after the two events of chapter 7 are finished: the 6th seal is the beginning of judgment: when God gets anger and the DAY of His wrath begins.

And in Rev. 20:4 we see those who refused the Mark of the Beast and were this killed are only raised AND Judged AFTER Jesus Second Coming, so those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come out of the 70th week, so that means the can only come out of the Great Church Age Tribulation period, and 2000 is GREATER than 7.

This I can agree with.

 

[lamad]

GT happen after tribulation in 2 Tess Paul say rapture happen after a man of lawlessness/great tribulation

Paul warn don't anyone deceive you
So Paul know there will lie doctrine that say rapture before a man of lawlessness and don't believe it

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Jackson, I don't think Paul would write rapture before wrath and rapture before the Day of the Lord in his first letter, and change that order in his second letter.

Some questions you should asked yourself about his second letter chapter 2:
Is the man of sin revealed (not in reality but in Paul's argument) in 3b?
If the answer is yes, HOW did he get revealed in 3b?
Why did Paul write "And now you know" who is restraining?
What must happen before the man of sin can be revealed according to verses 6-8?
What was Paul's theme for this passage?
What word did several of the early translations (before the King James) use for "apostasia?"
Can the Greek word, apostasia, be used for a spatial departing?

 

[lamad]

It is an absolute MYTH that the rapture is taking place in Rev. 4:1.
Any beginning reader would tell us it was JOHN caught up. After all, that is what the text SAYS.

What about "after this?" Some people get out the verse stretcher and try and force this phrase to mean "after the church age. How silly! It was JOHN called up to heaven around 95 AD. The church age was only starting!

WHERE is the rapture in Revelation? The truth is, John was not shown the rapture so did not write about it. But we can still find where it will be: AFTER the final church age martyr (seal 5) and BEFORE wrath (seal 6). It is no mistake then that Paul SAW the raptured church in the next chapter, as the great crowd too large to number. (The 70th-week begins at the 7th seal.)

 

[lamad]

“Come up Here!”

Rev 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.’”

Jesus says that the seven churches are the seven golden lamp stands​

Rev 1:20 “As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches

Jesus says that He walks among the seven golden lamp stands​

Rev 2:1“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this:

Now Jesus is saying He is holding the Seven Spirits of God. And we will soon see where they come from and where they go.​

Rev 3:1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Ok here is the Rapture but more importantly is what comes after this verse and the next​

Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.

After a reception of lightning and thunder Seven Lamps of Fire appear in front of the throne; and look what it says they are. Now the lamps that were on earth are before the throne, and do you remember what Jesus said the lamps were: thats right He said the were the churches; But now they are being called the Seven Spirits of God. And it just keeps getting better.​

Rev 4:5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God

So lets do a little review: Jesus said that the seven golden lamps on earth are the churches. Then after a voice like the sound of trumpet says come up here, and after a reception of lightning and thunder coming out from the throne: now the seven lamps are in heaven, but now they are being called the Seven Spirit of God. So you can look at the previous verse to see that it's all true. But move forward is the greatest thing we could ever see. So now we know the Seven Spirits of God are the Seven Churches.​

Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, that were sent out into all the earth.

So there we have it. The greatest thing one could ever imagine: Right there is the Head of the Lamb are Seven Eyes that are the Seven Spirits of God that were sent to ALL THE EARTH.​

So We are on The Throne Just As Jesus Promised We would be. Therefore, We are Raptured off of the Earth and seated on Our throne, Immediately before all the Murder and Mayhem begins.

Below is the Promise.

Rev 3:21-22 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to Him to sit down with Me on My throne, just as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. Rev

Rev 3:22 ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches.’” ​

It is extremely poor exegesis to imagine Paul's rapture is somehow hidden behind John being caught up. Why not rather believe Paul? He got the revelation of the rapture. He tells us the rapture will come just before Wrath and the Day of the Lord. In Revelation that would be just before the 6th seal. That fits with John because he tells us the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age and God is waiting or putting off judgment until the final church age martyr. That tells us the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seals.

There is a book called "the Red Moon Rapture." I think that author knows the truth.

John then SAW the raptured church in heaven and wrote about it in chapter 7.

 

[Rondonmon]

Let's not get into pride here.

Facts are facts. he is all over the place, just like your erroneous Seals are already open theory.

I wish I knew what he said about the Two witnesses. I hope you know they show up and begin their testimony only days before the midpoint of the week (probably 3.5 days) and most of their testimony is in the last half of the week.

I am pretty sure, if I remember correctly from Worthy he says the Two-witnesses are in the first half of the tribulation or 70th week tribulation. They show up exactly 75 days before the Middle of the Week at the 1335, THEY ARE the 1335 Blessing.

What does the WORD say? The DAY of His wrath begins in Rev. 6 at the 6th seal. But the first EVENT with His wrath will be the first trumpet judgment. You are half right here. What is the meaning? I think God begins to get angry at the 6th seal, but His wrath will not be felt on earth until the first trumpet.

No, it does not, the Rev. 6 Seals are Prophetic in nature, they FORETELL the final 42 months of mankind on this earth. If you could ever get past that obsolete Seal theory, I think you make a lot of sense on other things like the Pre Trib Rapture, BUT (think about it) being wrong on the timing of the Seals by 2000 years, would have to throw all your understanding out of whack if you are wrong (you are wrong, I am just trying to be congenial, I only mention this because I want everyone to understand I know better).

In the Seals Jesus opens and says "COME AND SEE" but in the 7 Trumps and 7 Vial the Angels in both cases READY The Judgments of God, but not via the Seals, that is because Jesus Jesus is prophesying via a Vision, (all of Revelation is Visions) like a movie being played on a screen. In the Seals Jesus opens a Seal and says "COME AND SEE" so John is looking at a vision of what is about to go down, AFTER the Sealed Scroll is opened. But in Rev. 8 and 15 John actually SEES the Angels readying the Judgments which Jesus showed him in Visions in Rev. 6, Jesus was showing John what these Judgments would soon bring to pass!!

So, he foretells in Seal 1-4 the Anti-Christ ACTIONS over his soon to come 42-month rule. So each Seal is a Prophesy to John, he says "COME AND SEE" and then he is shown in visions that this Anti-Christ figure/man will 1.)Conquer many (White Horse = Conquering, see Rev. 19 Jesus Conquers also on a White Horse). 2.) This man takes away Peace infers he came to power via pushing a FAKE PEACE onto Israel and THE MANY Nations in the Mediterranean Sea Region, thus he really BRINGS WAR via the Red Horse. 3.) His wars bring Famine over his 42 month rule. 4.) His 42 month reign of terror will bring Sickness/Death and the Grave (Hades). So, John is show the 42 month rule of the coming Anti-Christ and what this 42 month rule will bring.

Since its not a Horseman, I put Seal 5 down here, but its still a "COME AND SEE" Seal opening, Jesus is foretelling that this tyrants 42 month rule will have many, many Martyrs of Gentile Christian Saints, the Jews who flee Judea will fir the most part be protected. Of course some who get saved but don't move to Israel will be killed also, just like those Gentiles who come to Jesus at this time (Remnant Church of Rev. 12:17).

The 6th Seal Prophesy matches the Joel 2:31 Prophesy for a reason, they both point towards the Day of the Lord events as seen in the First Four Trumpet Judgments, and Trump #4 fulfills BOTH PROPHESIES.

THE VISION Jesus showed John

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Now lets look at Joel 2:31 where God showed Joel a Vision also, or gave him the words to write, same thing.


Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

So, what brigns both of these Prophesies to pass? Well, lets look at Rev. 8.

Trump #1 brings in Fire that burns 1/3 of the trees on earth and all the grasses who indeed puts tons f smoke into the atmosphere, especially after it gets into the jet stream.

Trump #2 brings an IMPACT (see Great Earthquake reference in Seal #6) of this great mountain (Asteroid) that hits in the Ocean and kills many sea creatures etc. etc.

Trump #3 brings a poisonous substance unto earth via this same impact, shown as coming in hot, the Yucatan Impact from 70 million years ago had so much sulfur fallout that it did the same thing, but this could be whatever God so choses to bring fort, it could be an unheard of metal/substance, but whatever it is, it poisons 1/3 of all the fresh waters. (which I think points to where this asteroid hits, in the Pacific Ocean)

Trump # 4 FULFILLS both Joel 2:31 AND Jesus' 6th Seal Prophesy.

Rev. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

We know that if 1/3 of all the tress in the world burn the Red Hue from the fires will make the moon turn red to our eyes on this earth. That's a fact. So, this Asteroid is God's Wrath, there will be 1260 days of Wrath against Babylon (this whole world) until Jesus returns to defeat the Anti-Christ and all his minions.

The Anti-Christ waits, WAITS, WAITS, then pounces as the asteroid strikes the earth, because as Dan. chapter 8 says, he hears DARK SENTENCES ( riddles), so Satan guides this man, of course, Satan is a great strategist, he understands that once God's Wrath hits, the prophesy CLEARLY STATES that 1/3 of the world will be wiped out (the Pacific Realm, the USA, Canada and Mexico will be hit worst, but Tsunamis will hurt the whole Pacific Realm), so Satan tells this man to WAIT unto God's Wrath falls before he goes forth Conquering, this is why the Seals show them ALLTOGETHER, the First 5 Seals AND Gods Wrath in the 6th Seal because they cover the exact same 42 month period of time. He waits on the USA to be wiped out, and the Gog and Magog war happens before this Asteroid Event, so Russia, Turkey and Iran's Armies are no more, so this E.U. President/King will have a ready made path.

 

[Friend]

It is an absolute MYTH that the rapture is taking place in Rev. 4:1.
Any beginning reader would tell us it was JOHN caught up. After all, that is what the text SAYS.

What about "after this?" Some people get out the verse stretcher and try and force this phrase to mean "after the church age. How silly! It was JOHN called up to heaven around 95 AD. The church age was only starting!

WHERE is the rapture in Revelation? The truth is, John was not shown the rapture so did not write about it. But we can still find where it will be: AFTER the final church age martyr (seal 5) and BEFORE wrath (seal 6). It is no mistake then that Paul SAW the raptured church in the next chapter, as the great crowd too large to number. (The 70th-week begins at the 7th seal.)

Rev 5:6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out to ALL THE EARTH.​

Jesus said seven lamps = Church=seven eyes​

John was taking it all in, (the observer) in a placement of timing "After these things"​

Anyways, at least two senior members do not want me here anymore........ All the Best!​

PS Nothing in this world would have survived if there was complete divorcement from chronology, therefore the Harlot will not survive, except in Hell. These traditions/doctrines came out of the organization having ridden the back of the scarlet beast. ​

 

[Rondonmon]

Say WHAT? There is no fleeing in chapter 7. NONE. Jesus told those living in Judea to flee when they see the abomination. We find that fleeing in Rev. 12:6. Chapter 7 is an intermission between the 6th and 7th seals while God and John "rearrange the set." What do I mean? Before judgment begins (first trumpet) God wants to see TWO EVENTS accomplished first: the sealing of the 144,000 for their protection, and then the CHURCH seen safely in the throne room of heaven.

You are correct, that great crowd comes from the church age, NOT the 70th week: John does not begin the 70th week until the 7th seal.

The 144,000 = THE WOMAN in Rev. 12 that Flees Judea. Just like WOMAN is a CODE so is the 144,000 a CODE. The number 10 = Completion the number 12 = Fulness thus 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 or God SHOUTING in Code, this is ALL Israel who repented, just like the 10 Virgins (Females I might add are you FEMALE? No of course not, so the 144,00 also do not have to be Males) are ALL Christendom.

The book of Revelation is NOT in Chronological Order, anyone with common sense can see that. The 144,000 are the Jews Fleeing Judea just before God's Wrath falls, thus God says HOLS UP the Four Winds (God's Wrath/Actions) and HURT NOT the Trees, Sea and the Earth UNTIL we have sealed (Protected them in the Bozrah/Petra area) them. And by the way, what does the Trumpet Judgments HURT? The Trees, Seas and the Earth. So, this is the Jews Fleeing Judea, except its rally 3-5 million Jews who have repented.

Sorry, but this is MYTH. They are told they have to wait for the full number killed as they were - but the meaning is, killed as church age martyrs. The 70th week has not yet begun and won't until chapter 8. They want to know when God will judge their murders. Judgment will begin after the two events of chapter 7 are finished: the 6th seal is the beginning of judgment: when God gets anger and the DAY of His wrath begins.

We will not even have to discuss this Seal Theory of yours, as I have told you before, this is not even worthy of debate. Its purely off the deep end brother. Until you understand Jesus is not a NOWEHERE MAN you will never get it, and you will be told in Heaven this was Satan fibbing at his finest.

It is an absolute MYTH that the rapture is taking place in Rev. 4:1.
Any beginning reader would tell us it was JOHN caught up. After all, that is what the text SAYS.

What about "after this?" Some people get out the verse stretcher and try and force this phrase to mean "after the church age. How silly! It was JOHN called up to heaven around 95 AD. The church age was only starting!

WHERE is the rapture in Revelation? The truth is, John was not shown the rapture so did not write about it. But we can still find where it will be: AFTER the final church age martyr (seal 5) and BEFORE wrath (seal 6). It is no mistake then that Paul SAW the raptured church in the next chapter, as the great crowd too large to number. (The 70th-week begins at the 7th seal.)

John is being shown THE FUTURE in Visions, of Course Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture, but it destroys your Seal Theory, so by all means make sure to follow that rabbit hole. As I stated earlier, this ONE MSTAKE leads you down many, many wrong cul-de-sacs.

 

[Jackson123]

Jackson, I don't think Paul would write rapture before wrath and rapture before the Day of the Lord in his first letter, and change that order in his second letter.

Some questions you should asked yourself about his second letter chapter 2:
Is the man of sin revealed (not in reality but in Paul's argument) in 3b?
If the answer is yes, HOW did he get revealed in 3b?
Why did Paul write "And now you know" who is restraining?
What must happen before the man of sin can be revealed according to verses 6-8?
What was Paul's theme for this passage?
What word did several of the early translations (before the King James) use for "apostasia?"
Can the Greek word, apostasia, be used for a spatial departing?

646 [e]
apostasia
ἀποστασία
apostasy
N-NFS

4412 [e]
prōton
πρῶτον ,
first
Adv-S

2532 [e]
kai
καὶ
and
Conj

601 [e]
apokalyphthē
ἀποκαλυφθῇ
shall have been revealed
V-ASP-3S

3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
the
Art-NMS

444 [e]
anthrōpos
ἄνθρωπος
man
N-NMS

3588 [e]
tēs
τῆς
-
Art-GFS

458 [e]
anomias
ἀνομίας ,
of lawlessness
N-GFS


To me it mean rapture after man of lawlessness or antichrist reveal or after great tribulation

Apostasy and man of lawlessness /get must come first before rapture
To me Apostasy in this context is depart from bible teaching. Example catholic

 

[Friend]

It is extremely poor exegesis to imagine Paul's rapture is somehow hidden behind John being caught up. Why not rather believe Paul? He got the revelation of the rapture. He tells us the rapture will come just before Wrath and the Day of the Lord. In Revelation that would be just before the 6th seal. That fits with John because he tells us the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age and God is waiting or putting off judgment until the final church age martyr. That tells us the rapture will be between the 5th and 6th seals.

There is a book called "the Red Moon Rapture." I think that author knows the truth.
John then SAW the raptured church in heaven and wrote about it in chapter 7.

The Revelations sets the Chronology, Everything Paul is saying has to fit within the chronology of the revelations of our Lord. (9 "after these things") There was a period of time (before His resurrection) where not even Jesus was knowing the exact timing of these events. But He was knowing that the Rapture would come with signs or chronology to anticipate it.​

Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.

It started raining suddenly with no expectation that this could even happen. Completely taken by surprise with no way to anticipate it. They were marrying and being given in marriage, as if there was nothing to be concerned about; that is until it started raining, but then they were trapped.​

The church is not mentioned for 19 chapters but is showing symbols and words indicative of Israel and the nations that they are destined to inherited, I'm not Jewish and neither do i have Jewish friends, but it plain to see that (Israel is the Bride) and the (Lamb/seven eyes) is the Groom

Psa 2:8 ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

Almost everything that has come out of the traditions of the Harlot are false; and the harlot is going into the tribulation, so that's what She has to say.

And the Rapture will be the awakening for Israel... Its the beast that is blaspheming those in heaven: the tabernacle, those under the altar, the nations: On the contrary, The Body of Christ is completely absent from any nationalistic identity... Whereas those refusing the mark are coming out of the Harlot, but will maintain their identity as a Great multitude from all the nations. There has never been any nationalistic Identity for the Church. How can we be nationalist since we already owned everything long before the vicious encroachments of the so-called age of discovery.

1Co 3:21 So then let no one boast in men. because all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you 23 and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

The nations and Israel will always be as the sands of the Sea; but the body of Christ is literally One: Like combining bread and wine, When eaton they are inseparably united.

Anyways I am wearing out my welcome; two senior members think I'm making to many waves, so this is my last day here... All the Best!!
​

 

[ewq1938]

When we get to heaven I will be proven correct, and you will be told you were wrong.

That's blind pride talking.

You haven't got a clue on the book of Revelation, you can't even get the timing of the Two-witnesses down, the way you divide it up is really mind boggling for a supposed engineer.

This is baseless nonsense. I don't have timing of the two witnesses wrong.

When Jesus said 10 Virgin Brides did he mean that? Or was the 10 Brides a stand in fir the Church, why doge that? Because it proves you wrong, that's why you dodge it.

Apparently you have no idea of parable and non-parable language.

Those Jews who are the 3-5 million who repent, flee Judea right before God's Wrath falls.

And I'm sure you have a scripture that shows that many repenting?

That wrath happens in Revelation 8, not in Rev. 6, thus in Rev. 7 we see them fleeing, the Multitude seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come from the 70th week, if you knew the bible you would be able to deduce that but pride is a hard trait to overcome. The Martyrs under the altar at the 5th Seal are specifically told they MUST WAIT until the Bests 42 month reign ends because they are told they must wait until all of their brothers have died on like manner as they did before they can get vengeance on those people on earth who killed them ? Can you add that up? And in Rev. 20:4 we see those who refused the Mark of the Beast and were this killed are only raised AND Judged AFTER Jesus Second Coming, so those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 CAN NOT come out of the 70th week, so that means the can only come out of the Great Church Age Tribulation period, and 2000 is GREATER than 7. I prove all these facts, you ignored them on Worthy and run and hide from the facts, that's why I never get in a conversation with you, you don't care about the facts as written in the bible. Bible truths via scriptures are an inconvenience to your understandings it seems, even when proven wrong, you just dodge the facts and keep going.

Half of this is common knowledge and other half is non-sense.

The Rev. 12:17 Remnant CAN NOT be Jews, it can ONLY be the Remnant Church, its right thee n the scriptures, and it goes over your head or you just dodge it. When you get to heaven and remember all the people you called dumb, and ignorant, than see you were the one who was wrong on almost everything, you will be in utter shock.

More blind pride.

 

[Rondonmon]

That's blind pride talking.

Facts come from God, God speaks truths, you speak gobbledegook.....

This is baseless nonsense. I don't have timing of the two witnesses wrong.

And everything else............

Apparently you have no idea of parable and non-parable language.

I understand the book of Revelation, you don't. I understand its encoded fir a reason, you don't, I understand the way he book flows you don't. I understand that Rev. 8, 9, and 16 (15&16) are the Judgment Chapters which covers 42 months, YOU DON'T. I understand Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and most of 19 are Parenthetical Citation Chapters, you don't. You want the number 10 to man what you want it to, not what God says it means. Do you really believe God has saved himself 7000 people also? Well, why not says 144,000 in that passage? Because it means the SAME THING. The two can't both be true if they represent different numbers. There are no 200 Million Angels either, even though most think it means Chinese men, 10,000 x 10,000 simply also means ALL THE HOSTS OF HEAVEN !! The 7000 means COMPLETION 7 x 10 x 10 x 10, the 144,000 means Fulness x Completion. Its you who don't get it, until you do, you see the 10 female brides and ALLOW THAT, But you can't grasp the 144,000 Male Virgins, why MALE? Because Israel was FIRST before the Church !! Thee are no 144.000 Male Jewish Virgins, just like there are no 10 Female Virgin Brides, we are all Virgins in Gods eyes because He looks at the blood of Jesus.

Apparently you can't out debate me on the point so you run away for 2 or 3 weeks until I call you as doing such, then you give a lame answer like this, I am right, that's from God, anything from God is the opposite of pride, hanging on to all your falsehoods is pride brother. A Stiff Neck.

And I'm sure you have a scripture that shows that many repenting?

Yes, as I have show 100's of times, can you count? If so, Zechariah 13:89 says 1/3 of the Jews will REPENT, then in Zechariah 14:1 (the very next verse) says the Day of the Lord has arrived, then Jerusalem falls in verse 1 and 2 and then in verses 3-4 and on Jesus returns to defeat the Anti-Christ and all his minions.

There are 10 million Jews living in Israel, (more will probably move there) and 15 million living worldwide. So, that's where I Get 3-5 million Jews who flee Judea. They do it just before the DOTL, and Malachi 4:5-6 says the same thing, Elijah is sent back before the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord.

Half of this is common knowledge and other half is non-sense.

Its ALL FACTS, you are just nit called unto Prophecy, stick to way you are called unto brother.

 

[ewq1938]

I understand the book of Revelation, you don't.

'

Thee are no 144.000 Male Jewish Virgins

Apparently you don't understand Revelation.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[Rondonmon]

'

Apparently you don't understand Revelation.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel..

Jesus gave John Visions, but he couldn't just show him these vast numbers via a CODE, if He showed a lot of Jews fleeing Judea that would have not been a good enough CODE and very confusing if the word Israel had not been used, so he calls them Servants of God instead and ENCODES who they are with NUMBERS. He does say these are the tribes of Israel, but the lingo saying they are the Sealed Servants of God only implies its a Spiritual endeavor, if God had simply stated the 12 tribes were going to rule with Jesus the King, then Rome would have seen this as treason.

These are mostly Visions, why does God use these Visions to inform His Churches that Israel will overcome and be a part of God's Kingdom at the very end without saying it is Israel whom will rule with Jesus? Because Rome had just sacked Israel, anyone saying this outright, and then saying they are going to overcome Rome and every other nation and rule the whole world through a great King named Jesus, would have been tried for treason, and the Churches would have been shut down. So, its clear you don't even understand why the Old Testament was used to ENCODE the Book of Revelation (BoR) where those who knew and understood the scriptures could decode the BoR.

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Israel)clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

{{ So you get this VISION by looking up Gen. 37:9 where Joseph had a dream of the Sun(Jacob), Moon(Rachel) and 11 Stars(his 11 brothers) paying obeisance unto him ? ___Joseph was the 12th star___. }}

{ So, we also know God USED NUMBERS throughout the Old Testament and we know what THOSE NUMBERS MEANT!! Yet when God does the exact same thing in Rev. 7 as He did in Rev. 12, YOU.......YOU can't grasp it !! Lets look at THE VISION and analyze why He did it with a CODE just like He did in Rev. 12. Think of this as mostly a VISION and a few Words to clarify the CODE. }

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

{{ Why do you not get this Vision (painted picture) by God unto John? I SAW signifies it is a Vision, not God's Words per se, when its WORDS John states I HEARD, then John has to write down these Visions and what HE SAW, and the WORDS he heard, thus He SAW four Angels holding back the Four Winds and in the Old Testament (OT) the winds always brought God's Judgments, and we see he says I SAW the four angels holding back these winds, and then John HEARD these words, HURT NOT (Judgment is being held up for SOME REASON) the Earth, Sea nor the Trees until we have SEALED the Servants of God (Jews who Repent) in their Foreheads. What is God's Seal of Protection? The Holy Spirit, once we repent and accept Jesus we are all SEALED with God's Seal of protection, we have ever lasting life. }}

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

{{{ Here John HEARS the Numbers spoken by Jesus/God or an Angel, 144,000, which just like 7000 is a TIMED NUMBER which shows completion, 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 is COPLETION x COMPLETION, with the 144,000 its Fulness x Completion as in 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10. Its not God's fault you can't grasp his CODES, if you could, then you might see the overall BIG PICTURE being painted, what HURTS the Earth, Sea and Trees? Well, flip the page, in Rev. 8 we see clearly that 1/3 of all the Trees are BURNED, the Seas are hit with an Asteroid (Mountain) and 1/3 of all the Sea Creatures are destroyed and of course that effects the Earth where the trees burn and smoke fills the air. So, the Angels HOLD BACK God's Judgments that are soon to come in Rev. 8 until The Jews REPENT and Flee from Judea as Servants of God SEALED by the Holy Spirit right BEFORE the Day of the Lord Judgment that hits in the EXACT Middle of the week. Now turn to Zechariah 13:8-9, we see that 1/3 of the Jews repent, then in the very next verse (Zechariah 14:1) we see the JUDGMENT HITS the earth, Jerusalem gets sacked once again, but in verses 3-4 we see Jesus shows up on the Holy Mount to defeat the Anti-Christ and all his minions. }}}

CONTINUED.....

 

[Rondonmon]

CONTINUED....

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

{{{ These are the Raptured Church, who came out of EVERY Nation on earth, Jews are from Israel, these are not those who died during the 70th week tribulation period, they CAN NOT be seen in Heaven after the Rapture of the Church WE KNOW (via Scriptures) that they are Judged in Rev. 20:4 and ONLY THEY (The Martyrs who refused the Mark of the Beast) live and reign on this earth with Jesus for 1000 years !! So, how are they ever seen in Haven? We also know those killed at this time (70th week tribulation) are told by Jesus at the 5th Seal that they MUST WAIT on all of their brothers on earth (AT THATB TIME) to be killed in like manner as they have (by The Anti-Christ who has 42 months to rule on earth) and ONLY THEN will they get their vengeance. }}}

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

{{{ Since we know those from the 70th week tribulation CAN NOT be in Heaven at this time and STAY ON EARTH after they are Judged in Rev. 20:4 with Jesus for 1000 years, they CAN NOT be seen in Heaven during this 70th week, but Satan has managed o TWIST this passage, because ALL TIME on earth is Troubles or Tribulation according to Jesus' own words in John 16:33 (written by John who is also writing this BoR), thus these that came from EVERY NATION on this earth, are the Raptured Church who came out of the great tribulation Church Age Period, Satan has managed to fool the masses into thinking God can ONLY use Great to describe one thing, the Greatest Ever Tribulation Period on this earth, but God can (and did) describe the 2000 year Church Age Period as GREATER than the 7 Years as in 2000>7 and that adds up, 2000 is indeed GREATER than 7, thus John described it as such. We know they CAN NOT come from the 70th week for they are ALL JUDGED in Rev. 20:4 and REMAIN on this earth to serve with Jesus for 1000 years, and we see via the 5th Seal that these CAN NOT get Vengeance until ALL of their brothers have been killed also and the Beast MURDERS for 1260 days, so that means NO ONE from the 70th week will ever be seen in Heaven during the 70th week. You guys allow WORDS to hamper your studies, I don't, I look at all the words together and come to a conclusion, 2000 is GREATER than 7 BUT no one from the 70th week can ever been seen in Heaven until after Jesus Second Coming, so who cares about ONE WORD you guys have a hang up over? You cant pigeonhole Gods great vocabulary. Besides John heard this from an Elder from the Church, IN HEAVEN, the Raptured Church. Amen }}}

When you finally grasp the 144,000 ae the Fleeing Jews, you will understand the timing of the BoR, the Seas are thus NOT JUDGMENTS, but Prophetic utterings by Jesus and what the soon to come Judgments will bring, the first 5 are the Anti-Christ, the 6th is God's COMIG WRATH, and the 7th only OPENS the Scroll of Judgments so the Judgements finally begin, that is why its over in Rev. 8 AFTER the Rev. 7 Fleeing of the Jews to the Petra/Bozrah area !!

God Bless brother.....

 

[Absolutely]

Your post reeks of desperation to control damage to the false pre-trib rapture. No substance or proof, just an emotional outburst using an exclamation mark.

Then show us the timing of the marriage supper..

You say he is wrong and go after his character at the same time.
Ironically...you need to work on delivery.

 

[Absolutely]

yeah. It's plainly stated that Jesus comes after the tribulation to gather His elect. No other verses describes His coming with such precision as the Olivet Discourse does. Therefore, it's inappropriate to come to a contradictory conclusion about multiple comings or a pre-tribulation coming of Christ.

It's really that simple.

Ironically...no verses....nothing to back anything up.

Where is your proof or basis?

 

[Absolutely]

yeah. It's plainly stated that Jesus comes after the tribulation to gather His elect. No other verses describes His coming with such precision as the Olivet Discourse does. Therefore, it's inappropriate to come to a contradictory conclusion about multiple comings or a pre-tribulation coming of Christ.

It's really that simple.

There are 2 gatherings in mat 24.

Take a closer look.

The only way you can make it one gathering is to corrupt the second one that Jesus declares concerning noah and the one taken/ left.

Re read it.
Take a neutral posture and re read it.

 

[Friend]

Luk 17:22 And He said to the disciples, “The day(s) will come when you will long to see one of the day(s) of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

 

[Absolutely]

It is an absolute MYTH that the rapture is taking place in Rev. 4:1.
Any beginning reader would tell us it was JOHN caught up. After all, that is what the text SAYS.

What about "after this?" Some people get out the verse stretcher and try and force this phrase to mean "after the church age. How silly! It was JOHN called up to heaven around 95 AD. The church age was only starting!

WHERE is the rapture in Revelation? The truth is, John was not shown the rapture so did not write about it. But we can still find where it will be: AFTER the final church age martyr (seal 5) and BEFORE wrath (seal 6). It is no mistake then that Paul SAW the raptured church in the next chapter, as the great crowd too large to number. (The 70th-week begins at the 7th seal.)

Your position is david trees position.
I call it mid trib 3.5 yrs into the great trib.
Nope
The rapture is prior to the white horse rider

That great crowd is tribulation saints left behind.
They went into the gt and got beheaded.