Allah and Christ

[Absolutely]

It may be that the Sabeans called their moon god 'the god' and the sun goddess 'the goddess' in Arabic. But does that invalidate the use of 'Allah' to refer to the true God. Consider Hebrew and Canaanite. I suppose one could view them as dialects of the same language. The Ugarits, before Abraham, used 'El' as the name of the head of a pantheon, a god who got drunk and fell in his own urine and feces. This is not the Biblical God, but the Bible calls the true God 'El', also in 'El-Elyon'-- God most high, El-Shaddai, etc.

Hindus will write 'God' and they have this idea of a pantheistic universe, but use the same word.


Huh? Play what backwards?

You do know that satan is the god of this world?
god = satan
Satan = god.

So a former satanist, now born again, using your template, having satan as their deity, could LEGITIMATLY write a bible inserting " satan" as their deity (in every place we see "God") since satan is the ACTUAL SUPREME god IN THEIR MINDS


What is in their minds as a clear picture of a supreme being, yet it would be a clear heretical perversion of God and his testimony?????

 

[Absolutely]

You do know that satan is the god of this world?
god = satan
Satan = god.

So a former satanist, now born again, using your template, having satan as their deity, could LEGITIMATLY write a bible inserting " satan" as their deity (in every place we see "God") since satan is the ACTUAL SUPREME god IN THEIR MINDS


What is in their minds as a clear picture of a supreme being, yet it would be a clear heretical perversion of God and his testimony?????

This is what christians want us to believe.

Since " allah" is their supreme god...and is clearly, clearly demonic, we are to just recklessly accept the muslems can not say elohim, jehova, "I Am", Yeshuah, etc??????

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Whether we call him I AM or Yahweh, it is the same God of Abraham, the creator of the Universe, we have in mind.

Have you considered Acts 17:16 - 23 where Paul told the Pagans that the unknown god they were worshiping is the same God he was preaching to them. You may also have to read the case of Cornelius before he was directed to meet Peter in Acts 10. What is in question is not whether Muslems and Christians worship the same God-- for they do--- It is the understanding of this God and manner of worship that needs to be addressed.

They worship a demon, a false god that Yahweh warns His people to not fall into the worship of demons who manipulate the masses to worship them as a god.

You only worship the same God if they have the same characteristics. A trinity making Jesus God in the flesh is not the same description that the Quran uses. So by logic of non-contradiction they are opposed.

People can worship God's creation but fail to worship the true God. They may worship idols, demons, or false prophets but just because one worships, doesn't equate to it being the same being. The inward desire to worship may be evident of God as even the indians knew to worship something, but it doesn't mean the sun is Yahweh.

 

[presidente]

What I am trying to say is that because their Koran contains such things you said does not not mean their Allah is different from our God. The understanding and manner of worship is what differs. These differences we also see in Christendom.

The Muslim concept of God is not the same. The Al Qur'an teaches that allah is the greatest deceiver of all. The Bible teaches that the Devil is the father of lies.

I don't mind the word 'Allah' since that is the Arabic (indonesian, etc.) word for God, but Muslims have some different ideas about what God is like.

 

[presidente]

Most Muslims do not blow stuff up. I took one class of Shiite Islam in college, which covered the origins of Islam. I also studied Arabic. I spent many, many years in a predominantly Muslim country. My wife was not raised Muslim, but I have some Muslim in-laws. My children might be descended, physically, from Muhammad. I'm a little unclear about whether that historical imam of Indonesia that my wife, as an adult, was told that she was descended from, was really descended from Muhammad.

So I have more experience with Muslims than the average American.

What I was told, at least, in college and elsewhere, is that the Al Qur'an has three categories of people, kafir, people of the book, and Muslim. Muslim means submitter. They use that for someone who accepts Islam (submission, the name of their religion.) To become a Muslim, one recites their saying about belief in one God and their belief that Muhammad is his prophet. There are also five pillars of Islam, including going to Mecca.

There is a concept of 'jihad'-- the lesser jihad is war, the inner jihad is the struggle with self.

Islam is not supposed to tolerate idolatry, or 'shirk' associating partners with God. So pagans who reject Islam are kafirs- (I forget the plural in Arabic) that is, disbelievers, and Islam is really against them. The other category is for pre-Islamic religions that have a holy book, so Jews and Christians are considered to be 'people of the book.' Islam is generally more tolerant of them, allowing them to exist if they pay a fine/tax.

Incidentally, I hear the Ottoman empire charged Christian was less than Byzantine taxes of the same people, which may have made it easier for them to maintain control.

There are some passages of the Al Qur'an where Muhammad was at war with Jews. There was a Jewish kingdom down in the Arabian peninsula during his day. Apparently, a number of Arabs had converted to Judaism. So some of the anti-Jew rhetoric comes from the rhetoric in Islam during a time of war. Moderate Muslims take this as context specific for when they were at war. Some of the radical Muslims take the anti-Jew stance as a permanent thing.

The Al Qur'an also says Christians worship God, the Son, and Mary. Muslims are against bowing down to statues and do not even draw pictures of Muhammad's face. So they do not like some of the veneration and iconography practices.

The Al Qur'an also says good things about the Torah, Gospel, and Psalms, and says Christians should read these books to determine if the Al Qur'an is true. It actually makes room for a lot of 'ammunition' for discussion with Muslims by this and other passages.

The Al Qur'an calls Jesus, or 'Isa, the Word of God and the spirit of God. This is a starting point to tell Muslims about Jesus as the divine Logos.

I don't want Muslims blaspheming the Holy Spirit, so if I have encountered one who seems like he might want to go the route of calling Muhammad the Paraklete, I might say I consider the Holy Spirit to be divine and considering calling the Paraklete a man to be 'shirk.' Challenging one who does so with 'shirk' might shut that part of the conversation down.

Some Muslim, Sunni, I think, tend to think of Gabriel as the holy spirit. They are confused about the concept of the holy Spirit.

Most Muslims are Sunni. A minority are Shi'ite/ Shi'i. After Muhammad died, they kept choosing leaders, originally based on their closeness to Muhammad. Muhammad's surviving descendants all came through his daughter Fatima and cousin/son-in-law 'Ali. The community made one of Muhammad's fathers-in-law, his best friend 'Abu Bakr the first Calif-- ruler of the Islamic community-- after he died.

So a Calif died and passed it to his son, and the descendants of Muhammad and his followers would rally and fight. There was a civil war where one of Muhammad's wives, Aisha, the one he married when she was maybe 6 but did not have sex with until she was maybe 9 or so, was on one side and Muhammad's grandson was on the other. After a series of skirmishes, both Hussein and Hassan, Muhammad's grandson's were wiped out. Their lineage became, for many generations, the leaders of the Shi'ite community.

Muslim beliefs are based on the Al Qur'an, which they consider to be spoken by God, and also to a lesser extent, hadith, sayings of Muhammad reported by different people. Shi'ite Islam has extra hadith.

 

[presidente]

religions have a dead gods. None have a living resurrected savior.

religion says "do"
Christianity says "done"

Religion stretches a ladder to heaven
Christianity has God stretching a ladder to earth.

That's the basis for saying christianity is not a religion. It is completely different.

So basically someone just makes up a bunch statements to redefine the word 'religion' and their church cultural subculture goes along with it. 'Religion' does not mean that to the rest of society. Therefore, religion is supposed to be a bad thing, even though just about every Bible translation uses 'religion' in a positive light when talking about pure religion in James 1.

Redefining religion threw up a smoke screen and made it harder to communicate with unbelievers. Some Christians kind of jump on them for calling Christianity a religion. But then if they call Muhammadism or New Age a 'relationship' that doesn't work either.

I also have encountered people who don't want to be religious jumping on the trampoline during Bible study. There are people who don't want to actually schedule a prayer time and things like that. These things are 'religious'-- Bible study meetings and schedule prayer times. But they are not evil.

Then there is the vague concept of the 'spirit of religion', which leaves preachers grasping at straws to explain a concept...or demon... can't seem to make up their mind... which is not in the Bible.

I think we ought to just stick with the Bible. Even sticking with the terminology in our Bible's helps us convey the truths better.

The really sad thing is when preachers give the 'relationship not religion schpiel' and leave out the Gospel, with no talk of Who Jesus His, His death for our sins, or His resurrection from the dead, then lead people in prayers that mention Jesus without preaching the Gospel. Redefining religion seems to have replaced preaching the Gospel in their preaching.

 

[presidente]

You do know that satan is the god of this world?
god = satan
Satan = god.

I am inclined to interpret that verse as being about the Devil. Irenaeus, who was combating those who believed in aeons serving as gods between the true God and man interpreted it to mean that God had blinded the eyes of those of this world, arguing Paul used non-standard word order.

So a former satanist, now born again, using your template, having satan as their deity, could LEGITIMATLY write a bible inserting " satan" as their deity (in every place we see "God") since satan is the ACTUAL SUPREME god IN THEIR MINDS

Nope, that is not my template at all. The evidence points to 'Allah being the word Arabic Christians used for 'God' before Muhammad came along. In English, Christians used the word 'God', but when Mormons came along using the same word, we did not decree that references to 'God' were actually references to Satan.

I took Arabic classes at the university I went to. When I took a Hebrew class, I noticed a lot of related words. Many of the words share tri-literal roots. So 'lh in Hebrew in 'eloah' (if I remember right) is cognate with 'lh in Arabic in ilah. The plural of 'eloah is 'elohim, which is used more often to refer to God in the Bible. It is believed that Allah is a shortened form of Al 'illah-- which means the God.

Inscriptions support the idea that Christians called God 'Allah before Muhammad came along. The Bible also uses the particle 'El to refer to God. Pagans had used that for a false concept of God. And 'elohim can refer to gods of the nations in Hebrew.

The word being used for a false concept of god does not invalidate the legitimate use in Hebrew. Why would it invalidate 'Allah as a legitimate word for God in Arabic?

Christians are free to argue with Muslims what God is like, as opposed to insisting on not calling God God.

I am not in favor of calling God as the Devil or Ilblis.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

If we cannot condenm all Muslems as radical, then, one can say it is not the Quran that is the problem but the understanding, just as it is with our bible.

it’s not a matter of being “ radical “ at all. Christians who follow the gospel teachings of Jesus are called radical also by the world.

jesus teaches radical things like help
Everyone your able to help without judging them , even be good and pray for those who do wrong to you , offer your enemy water of he is thirsty and food is he is hungry like Paul says. But never take any revenge because that belongs to God to repay men’s evils

Gods radical teaching is don’t harm anyone even if they don’t believe what you do.

that’s as radical as Christianity gets , nuts come from every religion brother people who don’t understand the Bible use it to lead groups astray of course that’s true just like the unholy Muslim scriptures but you can understand those and it says the time will come when you will drive away and kill theirs who won’t convert to Islam.

so the radical Part is true of radical Judaism and also Islam both founded upon the Torah

Christianity set apart from
Moses Torah and commands us never to do those types of things moses commanded the Jews to do putting one another to death and accusing judging and condemning that’s Jesus place now

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I can see your emotions poured out for Jesus. It is heart warming.

to be honest Jesus in my heart is the greatest treasure I have in life , along with the hope he has filled my heart with for this place to come

“Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:13‬ ‭

And promises like this offered in the gospel by coming to Jesus and learning from God

“Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:6-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

believing those things can be the commands and promises that fill our hearts until our cup runneth over. The Gospel is a very warm and welcoming place !!

 

[Nehemiah6]

The word being used for a false concept of god does not invalidate the legitimate use in Hebrew. Why would it invalidate 'Allah as a legitimate word for God in Arabic?

For the simple reason that the Allah of the Quran is OPPOSED TO the God of the Bible, to Christ, to Christian, and to Jews.

Sura 5:10, 33: As for those who disbelieve and reject Our revelations—these are the inmates of Hell... The punishment for those who fight Allah and His Messenger, and strive to spread corruption on earth, is that they be killed, or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides, or be banished from the land. That is to disgrace them in this life; and in the Hereafter they will have a terrible punishment.

When are you going to face reality? Absolutely no one -- other than yourself -- is harking back to pre-Muslim days. And nobody really knows much about that either since it is mainly conjecture. So for Arabic Christians to call God "Allah" would mean that they are speaking of the god of the Quran.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The bible tells us --go into the world and preach the gospel. Well, since this problem of understanding has been identified, it creates a great opportunity for all to go into the world and preach the gospel. Don't you think so?

yes indeed

Speak Of the manger where lord Jesus lay , and preach of God with us , in Jesus name pray .

The father in heaven said this is my son .the spirit upon him that made him as one

Good shepherd , messiah and savior of Life. Our dear friend who stays close through toil and strife.


speak in the shadows , the words of the light , converting the darkness and healing men’s sight.

Speak of repentance that turns us from sin , that terrible creature and killer of men


Speak Of the hammer that drove the nails through , tell them he did this for All and for you.

Speak of his bleeding his torture and shame , then witness remission of sins in his name.

tell them his judgements , what he said is right , and preach of atonement and scarlet made white.

Tell them of treasures in heaven behold , speak of the kingdom where men grow not old

tell them of mammon to share with the poor , tell them to give and I’ll bless them With more.

speak Of the treasures in heaven behold , then tell them of glory where men grow not old .

speak of the Father the spirit and son. Tell them his promise and that HE is one

preach the Lord Jesus who came from above . And teach them of mercy , forgiveness and Love.

Emplore them to follow and Bid them all Near….then tell them He’s coming some day , in some year .

and if they will hear you , then praise his great name . And go out some elsewhere and do all the same !

 

[Absolutely]

For the simple reason that the Allah of the Quran is OPPOSED TO the God of the Bible, to Christ, to Christian, and to Jews.

Sura 5:10, 33: As for those who disbelieve and reject Our revelations—these are the inmates of Hell... The punishment for those who fight Allah and His Messenger, and strive to spread corruption on earth, is that they be killed, or crucified, or have their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides, or be banished from the land. That is to disgrace them in this life; and in the Hereafter they will have a terrible punishment.

When are you going to face reality? Absolutely no one -- other than yourself -- is harking back to pre-Muslim days. And nobody really knows much about that either since it is mainly conjecture. So for Arabic Christians to call God "Allah" would mean that they are speaking of the god of the Quran.

He is determined to hang that allah demon around the neck of God

Let him.
It will not end well.

We have warned him enough

 

[presidente]

For the simple reason that the Allah of the Quran is OPPOSED TO the God of the Bible, to Christ, to Christian, and to Jews.

Why do Muslims get to own the word 'Allah since the Christians and Jews came first? You use the word 'God' which Hindus and Mormons use. Why don't you stop using the word 'God.'

When are you going to face reality? Absolutely no one -- other than yourself -- is harking back to pre-Muslim days. And nobody really knows much about that either since it is mainly conjecture. So for Arabic Christians to call God "Allah" would mean that they are speaking of the god of the Quran.

Since I have posted quotes from the Indonesian translation of the Bible, a link to various translations including Indonesian, Malaysian, Dayak, and Hausa that call God 'Allah', you really do not have an excuse for your ignorance on this topic. Contemporary Arabic-speaking Christians call God 'Allah', as do the speakers of many other languages.

Tens of millions of Christians, if not hundreds of millions, call God Allah. If you support missions, you might support a missionary who calls God Allah when reading out of the Bible.

Muslims throwing in the word 'Allah' there in a sentence makes it sound strange and foreign, but that is the word for God in Arabic and a lot of other languages.


At least the Arabic word is cognate with the Biblical Hebrew word for God (presumably), but the English word 'God' is not.

 

[presidente]

He is determined to hang that allah demon around the neck of God

Let him.
It will not end well.

We have warned him enough

Talking with you reminds me of that conversation in Huckleberry Finn where Huck and Jim talk about why French men don't talk like men. https://www.sparknotes.com/nofear/lit/huckfinn/chapter-14/page_2/

One of them couldn't quite wrap his head around the idea that there are other languages.

One of the earliest Christians to convert people to Islam was named Abdullah, short for Abdu Allah, servant of Allah, and many other Christians were named that ....before Muhammad. There are Christian inscriptions that use the term also.

If the Ugarit's wrote that El (the El in their pantheon) got drunk and fell in his own excrement, does that make it wrong for the Bible to call God El....El-Elyon, El-Shaddai, etc? Pagans called Zeus theos. Does that make it wrong for the New Testament to use Theos for God?

 

[Evmur]

Ok, so "Allah" is the Arab word for "God". So, when Arabs talk about god, they say "Allah" regardless of whether they are Muslim, jewish, or Christian or something else- because that is their language.

When English speaking Christian's say stuff like "ALLAH IS NOT GOD!!", or "HIS NAME IS NOT ALLAH!!", which I have seen from church pulpits- it comes off as either anti-Arab or just dumb.

It would be like if a Hebrew christian said "GOD [is not] Elohim!!" Or "Jesus [is NOT] Yeshua!!"

The difference is they say "praise Allah the merciful" before lobbing a bomb into a crowd of women and children.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The difference is they say "praise Allah the merciful" before lobbing a bomb into a crowd of women and children.

Or beheading Christians, or slaughtering innocents indiscriminately. "Allahu Akbar" is the battle cry of the Islamists. There is no separating Allah from Islamist atrocities, since that is what he has commanded, and promised paradise to the martyrs who kill infidels with their suicide bombs.

Sura 9:72. Allah promises the believers, men and women, gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein forever, and fine homes in the Gardens of Eden. But approval from Allah is even greater. That is the supreme achievement.

 

[MusicMan]

Allah is the Arabic for the word “God” and not a name of a God. I believe there is only one Allah.

 

[Gideon300]

Between the time I was in elementary school in the 1980's and about the time I started college, the word 'religion' had come to be a bad word-- almost exclusively among evangelicals. For unbelievers 'religion' meant the worship or belief in God or gods... or something like that. But in the cultural bubble of evangelical churches, 'preachers tried to redefine religion' to mean something bad-- trying to reach God with your own works, empty rituals, etc.

So then you have these unbelievers visit church and the preacher tries to convince them that religion is a bad thing and they have to figure out what 'religion' means to these people. It seems to me to be a hindrence to communication and therefore evangelism.

I did not participate in this redefinition of the word 'religion'. It still does not make sense to me. Our Bibles talk about pure religion and vain religion in James 1. Pure religion is a good thing. 'Religion' was used as basically the equivalent of 'Christianity' in Puritan writings and some of the other historical writings.

I think it probably grew out of some writings of Karl Barth combined with certain evangelicals trying to cater to the language of the so-called 'spiritual but not religious crowd' which was around at least in the 1960's. Hal Lindsey wrote that Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship in his 'Late Great Planet Earth.' Many preachers have preached that slogan as if it were the gospel.

Indeed, among American Evangelicals, it seems like the "It's not a religion; it's a relationship" has replaced the Biblical gospel. In my experience, I think in most cases in recent years, evangelical preachers will leave out the part about Jesus dying for our sins and certainly the part about his rising from the dead-- the stuff of the Gospel in the opening verses of I Corinthians 15 where Paul defines in, the messages we see in the sermons of the apostles in Acts-- and instead say this stuff about religion and relationship. While relationship with God is an important part of our faith, we come to it through faith in the Gospel, not without it.

The problem with the concept of religion, a word used once in the NT, is that you get into a discussion about which religion is better. A lot of people choose a religion that suits them, as if it was a sport or a club like Rotary. I attended a church for a time that had a pantheist who went around telling people that it did not matter what they believed, as long as they were sincere. That philosophy can get you killed.

If evangelicals leave out the gospel, then they leave out the basis for gaining a relationship with God through Christ. I agree that the church has watered down the gospel until it is unrecognisable. My take is that if you are not offending some people, you are doing it wrong. For many denominations, offending people is the unpardonable sin. However, that does not mean that Christianity is just another religion to choose from. It is unique.

I wish some of the posters on this forum could see that. Some are convinced its just a better set of rules to follow.

 

[Gideon300]

Allah is the Arabic for the word “God” and not a name of a God. I believe there is only one Allah.

The name "Allah" was hijacked by Mohamed to serve his wicked plans to dominate the Middle East and even Europe. In reality, Mohamed served Satan and attacked Christianity and the Jews wherever and whenever he could. His kingdom was entirely of this world. Much evil has been done by many movements and religions in the name of God. Islam is just one of them.

 

[presidente]

That claim is not borne out by the Koran. In the Koran Abraham and Ishmael are responsible for building the Kaaba in Mecca! Does that jive with the biblical account of Abraham and Isaac?

That seems extremely unlikely according to thee Biblical account. Imsuppose Muhammad taught that it had later been used for idolatry.