Christmas tree -- vestige from Babylonian worship

SophieT · Dec 12, 2021

ZNP, post: 4723579, member: 301387"]There are threads that cover those two topics in great detail, I participate in both those threads. If you are serious about this question you will go to those threads. I think it would derail this thread to discuss it here. In a word yes, I am very aware of what is happening.

we both know that we have had that discussion. let us not pretend otherwise please

ZNP, post: 4723579, member: 301387"]You have that backwards. This started discussion was started simply because Kaylagrl said that having a Christmas tree was associated with celebrating Christ's birthday and the implication of this was if you do not have a Christmas tree then you don't celebrate Christ's death. She condemned me, not the other way around.

uh...no. you started the kafluffle with your op. I have not read all her posts and I have not read all your posts. but I suspect that you are more than a little defensive having had other discussions with you, in which you purport you have all the backing of the saints through the ages, a few dozen Jewish mystics and the claim that you are prophetic.

ZNP, post: 4723579, member: 301387"]I believe to the merciful God will show Himself merciful.

it rains on the just and the unjust and God does not say 'so there' when the unjust die as I already posted (from scripture)..but that line (you wrote) is in scripture, but take scripture as a whole not just what appeals to you

ZNP, post: 4723579, member: 301387"]I don't discuss hell or people being sent to hell. I am not familiar with "so many false prophets". I have noticed a few on this forum, I simply ignore them after the 2nd admonition. I believe it is not our place to judge, that is the Lord's place.

Oh yeah it is our place to judge what is false. and thank God he gives discernment and then trains people up in the way to use it and to know what is false. the internet is so full of false prophets that it bulges at the seams and you follow quite a few sorry to say. we do not judge the heart...that, is God's place...the false fruit and failed so called prophecies are the domain of those on the watchtower and the gates of the city...I am sure you know what that means

"ZNP, post: 4723579, member: 301387"]I am eagerly awaiting the coming of the Lord Jesus. I am not eager for death and destruction.

What i don't understand is why Christians would associate the Lord's coming with death and destruction? This is like looking at the birth of a baby as the death and destruction of the placenta.

you must not be writing your own posts in that case

kaylagrl · Dec 12, 2021

SophieT said:

There's no place like home, there's no place like home, there's no place like home. Shew, I think that did the trick!

Lanolin · Dec 12, 2021

ZNP said:

well yea but the modern tradition was from Germany not Babylon

like there is a direct link not some airy fairy one like you present here. A lot of christmas tradtions are thanks celebrating the winter solstice in temperate climes. It wasnt even to do with worshipping any idol, it was just a celebration of the season...just like cultures the world over celebrate spring at the time of easter with special foods etc, and autumn or fall festivals with thanksgiving and harvests and summer music fests.

Lanolin · Dec 12, 2021

what did seem to come from babylon was the american tradtion of bowing down before a gold statue and singing i.e American Idol, the Academy Awards etc.

I could swear the book of Daniel was describing one of those interminable televised idol award cermeonies where everyone was screaming after the music played.

ZNP · Dec 12, 2021

SophieT said:

Tell that to whoever showed a picture of a Buddha and said this is what an idol looks like. I was simply responding to that post.

ZNP · Dec 12, 2021

I am reminded of a run in I had many years ago with a rattlesnake in Nevada. The thing was so still you would have thought it was dead and it blended into the background so you hardly knew it was there. But once we saw it and pointed it out to others so they wouldn't get bit the snake went ballistic, hissing and as angry as anything I had ever seen.

The Christmas tree is happy to be just like that snake until you point out that it is a snake. Then look at the absurd and ridiculous posts. Shameful for believers with the mockery and outrage over what? They tell you it isn't an idol but wow, they respond like you are attacking their belief in God. Oh right, that is where this all started, the assumption that burning a Christmas tree was an attack on Jesus.

Oblio · Dec 12, 2021

Since the Nibiru legend comes from the Anunnaki, who, to me, are clearly fallen angels and their Nephilim offspring, I dismiss it. They got an unknown planet right before we knew about it, but one would expect celestial beings to possess this knowledge.
I see Nibiru as an attempt by the enemy to throw off as many as possible from the truth during this time we live in. They are intelligent.
One night when I was 17, I awoke to find my room lit up by what looked like a short, stubby Christmas tree. It was standing by the foot of my bed, it was about 3 1/2 ft. tall, and all around on it, similar to what lights on a Christmas tree would look like, were what looked like little candles, and each one had what looked like a little saucer under it.
I was paralyzed and unable to even think. I was also terrified. I struggled to think for several seconds, and then the name, "Jesus" dropped into my head.
As fast as light disappears when you turn off a switch, it was gone, along with the paralysis, fear, and light. I lay there in the dark for a few minutes, then I rolled over and went back to sleep.
My days of having Christmas trees are over, especially now that I believe our Savior was born during Sukkot.

SophieT · Dec 12, 2021

ZNP said:

ok

hey! whoever posted that photo...you know what to do

SophieT · Dec 12, 2021

ZNP said:

when all else fails, shame people into your desired shape. almost as good as fear mongering

a little virtue signaling is always nice too

most posts were in reference to your own rhetoric and not anything to do with facts

Jocund · Dec 12, 2021

ZNP said:

I don't agree that a pre-trib rapture is a necessary interpretation of scripture. You can go down the path of that school of thought, but it remains uncertain based on scripture alone.

ZNP said:

I think in the end God will saved they whom He intends to save. Saul wouldn't have become Paul without intervention, and perhaps this is also likely the case for others. The most we can do is share God's love. We can't change the way things will unfold. Not in the capacity that would void a prophecy anyway. Some will be saved, some will be lost. Will creating a festival change anything?

ZNP said:

The Hebrew (lunar) calendar and the Gregorian calendar don't line up well with how dates are counted anyway (is someone's birthday counted from the beginning of a month or days from a new moon?). I don't think a specific date really matters in the grand scheme of things.

ZNP said:

You know, a wheat seed that hits the ground doesn't necessarily show its spiritual yield right away. It is outwardly indistinguishable from a fruitless tare. There are internal changes in people that we might not see. We should be patient with others as others have been patient with us.

ZNP said:

I mean, you do understand what kind of people push to remove Christ from the forefront of Christmas, right?

The image of Saint Nicholas, RCC patron saint of children, isn't particularly objectionable by itself. Even the merger of Norse religions which had the Yule-man and Yule-tide trees (Christmas trees) isn't particularly objectionable by itself. All manner of spiritual imagery is unobjectionable so long as they point to God and do not contradict the covenant of Christ.

I don't think "Santa" is particularly Satanic or antiChrist in any way. But there are other elements and imagery in play that we should be especially mindful of. Observers of the (Babylonian) Talmud should make any Christian wary. Their scripture and imagery is explicitly antiChrist and antiChristian. If you want to talk about vestiges of Babylon, that's the first place you should look.

Oblio · Dec 12, 2021

This is my Christmas song.

CS1 · Dec 12, 2021

ZNP said:

8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

The Bible does not list all things that are pure that we do.

The Christmas tree is a good tradition and has far more good things than bad unless you want to focus on bad things which we are seeking the good in all.

Paul ate meat offered to Idols, yet that was not offensive to God. The Christmas tree is in that same context we do not worship the Christmas tree but it is a good tradition. Compare the use of Weed by self-professing chritians which is far more demonic and has destroyed lives. Yet many Christians defend the use of it. I was never taught to worship the Christmas tree nor am I doing so by default.

ZNP · Dec 12, 2021

Returning to the point

1Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Every Christian has the word of God, all of them get baptized, they all have the same Spirit of God and yet if these things are an example to us not all of them entered the good land.

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

The difference is that those who fell set their hearts on evil things. It is interesting how it defines idolatry. Everyone says they are not committing idolatry, so he doesn't even bother with that, instead you can tell when someone is being idolatrous by the way they behave. Parties, revelry, getting drunk, fornication, these are all examples of the behavior of idolaters.

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Someone on this thread said that no one keeps Saturnalia anymore! Really? Saturnalia is a 7 day feast and revelry. We don't do that for "Easter" or any other holiday, but to have non stop Christmas parties for work and friends, that is common. This doesn't mean that eating at a friends house has to be "idolatry" and anyone who would try to twist this to that clearly has an agenda. No, what it means is that many (not all) use this season as an excuse to get drunk, go to parties, and even get involved in fornication.

Idol Feasts and the Lord’s Supper
14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

Therefore flee idolatry because you could lose your birthright! You could be discarded in the wilderness.

18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

When we partake of the Lord's table we are not simply doing some meaningless ritual, it means that we are partaking of all that it entails to be a believer in Christ. Jesus said that we must take up our cross and follow Him. This is included in our partaking of the body and blood. In the same way there is an assumption that if you partake in the table of demons that you are partaking of all that this entails. He is comparing this to a woman who is engaged to one man going out for a night out with another man. Nowhere is this more plain to see than with Christmas. You spend half of the holiday with the babe of Bethlehem and the other half with "Santa baby".

Blik · Dec 12, 2021

kaylagrl said:

The exit is Christ's way. Christ let all men free to make their own choices. Paul was taught by Christ and Paul said to live was for Christ. If someone thinks celebrating Christmas is living for Christ, we should be quiet about it. If someone thinks it is not living for Christ but they have another way of doing that, more power to them.

Personally, I'd like the pushers of the trees and tin stars to let me alone to follow only Christ and keep their lights and trees to themselves. They have the world of flesh to back them up, isn't that enough for them?

ewq1938 · Dec 12, 2021

Blik said:

The exit is Christ's way. Christ let all men free to make their own choices. Paul was taught by Christ and Paul said to live was for Christ. If someone thinks celebrating Christmas is living for Christ, we should be quiet about it. If someone thinks it is not living for Christ but they have another way of doing that, more power to them.

Personally, I'd like the pushers of the trees and tin stars to let me alone to follow only Christ and keep their lights and trees to themselves. They have the world of flesh to back them up, isn't that enough for them?

And what is your view on Easter?

Blik · Dec 12, 2021

ewq1938 said:

I think scripture tells us all about Passover, nothing about Easter.

I don't think the Lord asked us to celebrate Christ coming as a man, I think that is man's idea but nothing wrong about it. The Lord loves joy, giving, good will, and celebrating. But I think the Lord would rather we celebrate Passover that gives us eternal life as our main celebration.

ZNP · Dec 12, 2021

Blik said:

Well, Paul said don't let anyone judge you in the keeping of a feast, so even though we have different views on this it doesn't make any difference. The only day we have been charged to keep is the Lord's table.

Oblio · Dec 12, 2021

ZNP said:

Returning to the point

1Corinthians 10:1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Every Christian has the word of God, all of them get baptized, they all have the same Spirit of God and yet if these things are an example to us not all of them entered the good land.

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.” 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

The difference is that those who fell set their hearts on evil things. It is interesting how it defines idolatry. Everyone says they are not committing idolatry, so he doesn't even bother with that, instead you can tell when someone is being idolatrous by the way they behave. Parties, revelry, getting drunk, fornication, these are all examples of the behavior of idolaters.

11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Someone on this thread said that no one keeps Saturnalia anymore! Really? Saturnalia is a 7 day feast and revelry. We don't do that for "Easter" or any other holiday, but to have non stop Christmas parties for work and friends, that is common. This doesn't mean that eating at a friends house has to be "idolatry" and anyone who would try to twist this to that clearly has an agenda. No, what it means is that many (not all) use this season as an excuse to get drunk, go to parties, and even get involved in fornication.

Idol Feasts and the Lord’s Supper
14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

Therefore flee idolatry because you could lose your birthright! You could be discarded in the wilderness.

18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that food sacrificed to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

When we partake of the Lord's table we are not simply doing some meaningless ritual, it means that we are partaking of all that it entails to be a believer in Christ. Jesus said that we must take up our cross and follow Him. This is included in our partaking of the body and blood. In the same way there is an assumption that if you partake in the table of demons that you are partaking of all that this entails. He is comparing this to a woman who is engaged to one man going out for a night out with another man. Nowhere is this more plain to see than with Christmas. You spend half of the holiday with the babe of Bethlehem and the other half with "Santa baby".

I think I'm Yeshuan. Lol

AworkINprogress · Dec 12, 2021

I got my tree up. YAY. I love Christmas. And you know what Paul would have love it too. He would see it as an opportunity. He would become all things to all men so he could win some and Christmas is a perfect time of the year to “win souls”.

Unfortunately my Dad made our Christmas so miserable. He was always in conflict with it being a pagan holiday and he made it all a living hell for all of us. Almost all the gifts went back to the store, or he would take what we got and wanted them for himself. After his passing, then we had the best times. Even our birthdays meant something now.

When I see these negative posts about Christmas, I think of Dad and his constant conflict and how I used to be caught up in all the negativity too. I was become a miserable cantankerous young coot. I am free from that and give thanks now in all things.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Oblio · Dec 12, 2021

AworkINprogress said:

I got my tree up. YAY. I love Christmas. And you know what Paul would have love it too. He would see it as an opportunity. He would become all things to all men so he could win some and Christmas is a perfect time of the year to “win souls”.

Unfortunately my Dad made our Christmas so miserable. He was always in conflict with it being a pagan holiday and he made it all a living hell for all of us. Almost all the gifts went back to the store, or he would take what we got and wanted them for himself. After his passing, then we had the best times. Even our birthdays meant something now.

When I see these negative posts about Christmas, I think of Dad and his constant conflict and how I used to be caught up in all the negativity too. I was become a miserable cantankerous young coot. I am free from that and give thanks now in all things.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Merry Christmas!

Christmas tree -- vestige from Babylonian worship

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