Christmas tree -- vestige from Babylonian worship

[ewq1938]

What i don't understand is why Christians would associate the Lord's coming with death and destruction?

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[ewq1938]

Really, try googling Buddha Christmas ornament

Doesn't change that the passage talking about cutting down a tree is not about keeping tree whole like a Christmas tree and adding things to it. It's about carving a wooden idol.

 

[ZNP]

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You didn't read the whole post, I compared the birth of the baby (raptured church) with the death and destruction of the placenta. How many people look at the birth of a child and are complaining about the death and destruction of the placenta?

 

[ZNP]

Doesn't change that the passage talking about cutting down a tree is not about keeping tree whole like a Christmas tree and adding things to it. It's about carving a wooden idol.

Yes, many ornaments that are put on the tree are idols. That was the correlation. The fact that you admit a buddha is an idol is the confirmation.

 

[kaylagrl]

You have that backwards. This started discussion was started simply because Kaylagrl said that having a Christmas tree was associated with celebrating Christ's birthday and the implication of this was if you do not have a Christmas tree then you don't celebrate Christ's death. She condemned me, not the other way around.

Hold up!! You back that truck on up!! Kaylagrl said no such thing. I made no "implications", none whatsoever!! Whatever paranoia you have don't be pushing that on me! YOU are the one that made the implications Bud. I said the world associates the Christmas tree with Christianity and that Christmas tradition, that being the reason they would burn a tree. I did not imply any such thing as you said. Boy you legalists are somethin' else. I've never seen such a scary change in a person. Truly frightening.

I believe to the merciful God will show Himself merciful.

Really? You think he'll ask your opinion first? Get your permission? Show himself merciful for what?

I don't discuss hell or people being sent to hell. I am not familiar with "so many false prophets". I have noticed a few on this forum, I simply ignore them after the 2nd admonition. I believe it is not our place to judge, that is the Lord's place.

Well that's not true, you've judged me more than once in this thread.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Pretending that the celebration of Saturnalia and the worship of the sun is celebrating Jesus' birth is to trample the Son of God underfoot.

There is probably not one in a million Christians who even know what Saturnalia is all about. And there is no question that December 25 was in fact a pagan festival honoring the sun way back when there was sun worship. Christ the Son of God was born probably in early September, and that would have been the right time to celebrate (if at all). However there is nothing in the Bible urging Christians to have a special day for remembering the birth of Christ. So now it becomes a matter of Christian liberty -- those who choose to observe Christmas must do so in a manner that pleases God. And those who choose to simply ignore it should feel free to do so.

But in spite of its pagan origins, Christmas became a Christian festival and has been so for about 1600 years. So we should look at the positive aspects of Christmas as Christians (not as the world celebrates it and people get drunk):

1. This is a golden opportunity to share the Gospel, since the question which needs to be asked by all (and put to all) is "Why exactly was Jesus of Nazareth born in Bethlehem in 4 BC?" Which must invariably lead to the Gospel, and the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.
2. This is also a golden opportunity for Christians to share their wealth and material blessings with the less fortunate, and donate generously to the needy.
3. This is also a golden opportunity to re-connect with people who have been out-of-touch during the rest of the year, and share the Gospel, or something of value from Scripture, or express our love and concern.
4. This is also a golden opportunity to personally meditate upon the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The birth of Christ does not stand by itself. To worship Christ as Lord and Savior is to appreciate what Christ accomplished in His redemtpive work. And to be reminded that it is only because God "so loved the world" that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners".
5. This is also a golden opportunity to sing spiritual Christmas hymns and carols which are solidly rooted in Scripture (as opposed to Jingle Bells or Here Comes Santa Claus).

So Christians can easily ignore all the nonsense and focus on what is pleasing to God.

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, many ornaments that are put on the tree are idols.

Uh, no. Do you now know what an idol is? It's something that is worshiped. No one worships a Christmas tree or it's ornaments.

I don't know if you are a man woman but if a man and have a watch as an ornament, do you worship that watch?
If a woman, are the rings or bracelets or earrings things you worship?

No is answer to both.

Here is Gill's commentary on passage in Jeremiah:

not for building, or for burning, but to make a god of; the vanity, stupidity, and folly of which are manifest, when it is considered that the original of it is a tree that grew in the forest; the matter and substance of it the body and trunk of a tree cut down with an axe, and then hewed with the same, and planed with a plane, and formed into the image of a man, or of some creature; and now, to fall down and worship this must be vanity and madness to the last degree; see Isa_44:13.


Again, Jeremiah was not in any way talking about using trees in a home at Christmas.

 

[ZNP]

Hold up!! You back that truck on up!! Kaylagrl said no such thing. I made no "implications", none whatsoever!! Whatever paranoia you have don't be pushing that on me! YOU are the one that made the implications Bud. I said the world associates the Christmas tree with Christianity and that Christmas tradition, that being the reason they would burn a tree. I did not imply any such thing as you said. Boy you legalists are somethin' else. I've never seen such a scary change in a person. Truly frightening.




Really? You think he'll ask your opinion first? Get your permission? Show himself merciful for what?





Well that's not true, you've judged me more than once in this thread.

This was Post #1 of her thread on Christmas tree burning. "P.S. If you don't celebrate Christs birth please move on, this is not a discussion on that subject. This is news story about a Christmas tree."

Post #6 "which is the burning of a tree that is associated in the worlds mind as a Christian symbol"

This was supposed to make things better? This made things worse.

Post #7 "It's not an idol, it's a symbol. Whether you associate it with Christianity, most people do. "

I associate it with the apostasy and I know that it is associated with Babylon, the worship of Baal and is a symbol of the Great Babylon.

I set up this thread to not derail the other one. If you weren't talking about Christmas trees as a "symbol" of the Lord's birth then why did you come to this thread?

Post #14 "I will ask, do you understand that the world, for the most part, associates the tree with Christianity and Christmas, therefore, Christ's birth"

And yet you say you didn't say that the Christmas tree was associated with Christ's birth? You hammered on that repeatedly. All I did was say it isn't.

 

[ZNP]

There is probably not one in a million Christians who even know what Saturnalia is all about. And there is no question that December 25 was in fact a pagan festival honoring the sun way back when there was sun worship. Christ the Son of God was born probably in early September, and that would have been the right time to celebrate (if at all). However there is nothing in the Bible urging Christians to have a special day for remembering the birth of Christ. So now it becomes a matter of Christian liberty -- those who choose to observe Christmas must do so in a manner that pleases God. And those who choose to simply ignore it should feel free to do so.

But in spite of its pagan origins, Christmas became a Christian festival and has been so for about 1600 years. So we should look at the positive aspects of Christmas as Christians (not as the world celebrates it and people get drunk):

1. This is a golden opportunity to share the Gospel, since the question which needs to be asked by all (and put to all) is "Why exactly was Jesus of Nazareth born in Bethlehem in 4 BC?" Which must invariably lead to the Gospel, and the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.
2. This is also a golden opportunity for Christians to share their wealth and material blessings with the less fortunate, and donate generously to the needy.
3. This is also a golden opportunity to re-connect with people who have been out-of-touch during the rest of the year, and share the Gospel, or something of value from Scripture, or express our love and concern.
4. This is also a golden opportunity to personally meditate upon the birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The birth of Christ does not stand by itself. To worship Christ as Lord and Savior is to appreciate what Christ accomplished in His redemtpive work. And to be reminded that it is only because God "so loved the world" that "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners".
5. This is also a golden opportunity to sing spiritual Christmas hymns and carols which are solidly rooted in Scripture (as opposed to Jingle Bells or Here Comes Santa Claus).

So Christians can easily ignore all the nonsense and focus on what is pleasing to God.

I am not trying to say Christians should not celebrate Christmas, if you understand that holiday to be about Jesus' birth.

I have said repeatedly that the holiday celebration is under the Lord's sovereignty. Everything about it is under the Lord's sovereignty.

1. The point i have made is to ask why would the Lord have us celebrate Jesus' birth on December 24th in the evening when we know for a fact He wasn't born then?

2. Why would the second half of this celebration be closely tied to pagan rituals, Satanic magic, and a great delusion all celebrating the birth of a Babylonian God depicting the antichrist?

I don't have anything to do with the witchcraft portion of this celebration, but I think it is a valid question to ask based on two key principles:

1. Jesus is Lord. Nothing happens that is not under His sovereignty, especially with His church.

and

2. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. The religious festivals in the Old Testament were set up by God in a precise way as a rehearsal for the real events and they were very precise. So then is that also true of Christmas? If so, what is this depicting? It looks like the story in Revelation 12 to me.

 

[ZNP]

Uh, no. Do you now know what an idol is? It's something that is worshiped. No one worships a Christmas tree or it's ornaments.

I don't know if you are a man woman but if a man and have a watch as an ornament, do you worship that watch?
If a woman, are the rings or bracelets or earrings things you worship?

No is answer to both.

Here is Gill's commentary on passage in Jeremiah:

not for building, or for burning, but to make a god of; the vanity, stupidity, and folly of which are manifest, when it is considered that the original of it is a tree that grew in the forest; the matter and substance of it the body and trunk of a tree cut down with an axe, and then hewed with the same, and planed with a plane, and formed into the image of a man, or of some creature; and now, to fall down and worship this must be vanity and madness to the last degree; see Isa_44:13.


Again, Jeremiah was not in any way talking about using trees in a home at Christmas.

The fact that you see it as an ornament is fine, that means that the tree is vanity. I said from the very beginning there is a range a Christmas tree can be anything from vanity to an idol. However, it is not a symbol of Jesus birth and any attempt to say it is will not have a shred of Biblical basis.

My point was not that you personally were involved in idol worship but that for many people it is idol worship.

You showed an idol made from wood and said "this is what an idol looks like" I showed a Christmas ornament that looked identical.

 

[ZNP]

I am not telling people what to do, you are missing the point if you think I am.

I am not telling you what to do, if you have prayed about it and the Lord has given you the life and peace to have a Christmas tree then praise the Lord. I don't have that life and peace. There are many things about the holiday that I have completely rejected and explained to my family and kids why that is.

Do they celebrate it in ways i don't? yes. Do i tell them what to do? No.

I figured everyone knows it has nothing to do with the Lord's birth, that it is not a NT practice, it is not a Biblical practice, and I would think any practicing Christian would want to know what it is they are bringing into their house before they bring it in.

The point of this thread was to look at the totality of the celebration through the eyes of a sovereign God and ask why He would want His church to be involved in this celebration every single year. What is He saying? Is this a shadow of things to come as Paul says in Colossians?

 

[ewq1938]

The fact that you see it as an ornament is fine, that means that the tree is vanity. I said from the very beginning there is a range a Christmas tree can be anything from vanity to an idol. However, it is not a symbol of Jesus birth and any attempt to say it is will not have a shred of Biblical basis.

Things can be Christ related without being biblical. Christmas trees to me are a symbol of Christ, not pagan, and not an idol. Presents were given to Christ and now we celebrate that by giving gifts to our friends and loved ones.

You showed an idol made from wood and said "this is what an idol looks like" I showed a Christmas ornament that looked identical.

And that was of a false god. Most ornaments are not representations of false gods.

 

[Lanolin]

i didnt think it was babylonian

I thought it was germanic...because the trees are pines or firs, and that was often what they had in Germany during the winter solstice..it was the British royal family that popularised it (they were actually german) and then everyone copied them.

Because Babylon itself was not in a temparate climate to have a winter or would have even had pine or fir trees. I recall they had the hanging gardens of Babylon, but they didnt actually have hardly any forest to even HAVE trees.

 

[ZNP]

Things can be Christ related without being biblical. Christmas trees to me are a symbol of Christ, not pagan, and not an idol. Presents were given to Christ and now we celebrate that by giving gifts to our friends and loved ones.




And that was of a false god. Most ornaments are not representations of false gods.

I will repeat this again, I am not telling anyone what to do. I prayed about it and I don't have the life and peace to bring that thing into my house. If the Lord has given you life and peace to have it in your house then that is between you and Him. I would think that any believer would want to know what it is they are bringing into their home before they bring it in and bring it before the Lord.

After that it is between you and the Lord.

 

[Lanolin]

The trees most associated with Babylon were willows but they werent actually willows but more Poplars that were growing by the rivers.

and nobody puts up or cuts down a poplar tree and puts them in their house because they are HUGE

 

[ZNP]

i didnt think it was babylonian

I thought it was germanic...because the trees are pines or firs, and that was often what they had in Germany during the winter solstice..it was the British royal family that popularised it (they were actually german) and then everyone copied them.

Because Babylon itself was not in a temparate climate to have a winter or would have even had pine or fir trees. I recall they had the hanging gardens of Babylon, but they didnt actually have hardly any forest to even HAVE trees.

The story dates back to the death of some Babylonian God, I don't think it was Nimrod, but one of them died from being gored by a boar and where he bled out a fir tree grew. They claimed upon his death he ascended to become a star, one of the gods, so they brought a fir tree into the house on Dec 22nd, decorated it, and then celebrated his birth on December 25th.

It is a twisted tale, apparently Nimrod married his mother, I think it might be his father who was the one who died and supposedly was "born as a god" on December 25th.

 

[Lanolin]

The trees most associated with Jesus is the Olive tree.

 

[Lanolin]

The story dates back to the death of some Babylonian God, I don't think it was Nimrod, but one of them died from being gored by a boar and where he bled out a fir tree grew. They claimed upon his death he ascended to become a star, one of the gods, so they brought a fir tree into the house on Dec 22nd, decorated it, and then celebrated his birth on December 25th.

dont know where you got that story from but I doubt that fir trees grew in Babylon. Wrong climate for them.

 

[Lanolin]

Cedars grow in lebanon

 

[ZNP]

dont know where you got that story from but I doubt that fir trees grew in Babylon. Wrong climate for them.

Babel was more than 4,000 years ago. The last ice age ended about 10,000 years ago and the earth has been warming up since then. The garden of Eden is a good example of how much the climate has changed with best estimates saying it is below sea level right now.

Also the Middle East has been the battle ground of numerous Empires that burned the forests to the ground and cut them down.

My point is that the forests that were in that region during the time of Nimrod may have changed. But even so this link shows that in the high mountains they do have pine trees and other evergreen trees.

https://www.fao.org/3/x5346e/x5346e06.htm