Does One Receive the Holy Ghost the Moment they Believe in Jesus?

[infinitekhanol]

Interestingly, the account of the jailor actually implies the group returned from somewhere: "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house." Acts 16:33-34

I am unaware of scripture actually establishing non immersion in relation to water baptism.

First, we know that this incident happened within the same hour of the night the earthquake occurred. That is, in the middle of the night according to scripture. Your argument is presupposing that, either the keeper of the Prison's household were present in the Prison yard at that time of the night and all went straight to the river for the baptism or they first went to the house, took everybody with them to the place you said they returned from. This is extremely doubtful

The text suggests that when the man asked Paul and Silas what to do to be saved and they told him, he took them to his house where they preached to the whole household who converted and believed. There is no way the man would have washed their wounds IN the house. He must have taken them OUTSIDE the house to wash their wounds and made water available for their baptism. And, thereafter, took them back INTO the house for the meal and celebration. This is more tenable.

ACTS of the Apostles is full of examples of baptism with no immersion. But, because you have believed all baptism is by immersion, you read the scripture regarding water baptism with that mindset and therefore missing, in my opinion, some other aspects of water baptism

 

[Wansvic]

Obedience to which command? In the context of our discussion, the obedience is to repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus. The scripture does not show we obey by immersion only. That is my point.

And, it does not matter if you are baptised in the name of Jesus OR in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. The spiritual connotation remains the same.

God's truth is always confirmed by 2-3 scriptures. As such, water baptism is by immersion. This lines up with one being buried as someone else mentioned in an earlier post. Individual's who are being water baptized in the name of Jesus are being buried with Him, ie, being placed under the water. (Rom. 6:4)

The biblical record is clear as to the need to be water baptized in the name of Jesus. There is not one water baptism record where the the phrase, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is used. When it is understood that the apostles obeyed Jesus' command as recorded in Matthew 28:19 the truth becomes clear. The apostles used the name of the Lord Jesus in each and every recorded water baptism because Jesus is the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Colossians 2:9 tells us this: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

The following is a list of all water baptisms. Each confirms the truth that the name of Jesus was consistently used in water baptism: Acts 2:38, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16. Consider as well that Paul confirmed that water baptism was in fact done in a name. And that name was the name of the one who was crucified for all mankind; the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 1:12-15)

 

[Wansvic]

First, we know that this incident happened within the same hour of the night the earthquake occurred. That is, in the middle of the night according to scripture. Your argument is presupposing that, either the keeper of the Prison's household were present in the Prison yard at that time of the night and all went straight to the river for the baptism or they first went to the house, took everybody with them to the place you said they returned from. This is extremely doubtful

The text suggests that when the man asked Paul and Silas what to do to be saved and they told him, he took them to his house where they preached to the whole household who converted and believed. There is no way the man would have washed their wounds IN the house. He must have taken them OUTSIDE the house to wash their wounds and made water available for their baptism. And, thereafter, took them back INTO the house for the meal and celebration. This is more tenable.

ACTS of the Apostles is full of examples of baptism with no immersion. But, because you have believed all baptism is by immersion, you read the scripture regarding water baptism with that mindset and therefore missing, in my opinion, some other aspects of water baptism

My comment was in response to your initial comment below, that you now contradict.

Your comment: "Non immersion is equally established. Therefore, it is either by immersion or otherwise. If it is by immersion alone, one has to prove via scripture that all those baptised in their houses for instance had swimming pool or rivers flowing in their basement!"

My response:
Interestingly, the account of the jailor actually implies the group returned from somewhere: "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house." Acts 16:33-34

I am unaware of scripture actually establishing non immersion in relation to water baptism.

 

[Absolutely]

if anyone wants to know why wansvic is so hung up on water and speaking in tongues:

wansvic is hung up on baptism by water and speaking in tongues...myself and others have had this conversation with him mulitple times. during the last long and tired thread, it finally was aserted that he is Oneness Pentecostal and the beliefs he espouses are of the Oneness Pentecostal persuasion

that means, baptize in Jesus name only and if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved

even worse, even if you do speak in tongues but are not baptized, you are not saved (looking for that in the thread and will post since I had that particular exchange with him)

here is an excerpt from that thread (follow blue link) wherein he states nowhere in scripture are we told to baptize in any other way save the name of Jesus only (verse from Matthew follows to show this is wrong) it needs to be understood that Oneness people are called Oneness because they do not believe in the Trinity so baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit would be wrong according to them

excerpt:

Being baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is not the same as being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus gave the command to baptize in a singular name, and the apostles obeyed the command and baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

There is not one record of anyone being baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That's because the apostles knew the name was in fact Jesus. If you don't believe that do a search of the entire bible. #704


Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

so wansvic, your argument is with the word as you are so fond of telling others

Thanks
That saves time wondring what in the world he is getting at.

 

[Absolutely]

if anyone wants to know why wansvic is so hung up on water and speaking in tongues:

wansvic is hung up on baptism by water and speaking in tongues...myself and others have had this conversation with him mulitple times. during the last long and tired thread, it finally was aserted that he is Oneness Pentecostal and the beliefs he espouses are of the Oneness Pentecostal persuasion

that means, baptize in Jesus name only and if you do not speak in tongues you are not saved

even worse, even if you do speak in tongues but are not baptized, you are not saved (looking for that in the thread and will post since I had that particular exchange with him)

here is an excerpt from that thread (follow blue link) wherein he states nowhere in scripture are we told to baptize in any other way save the name of Jesus only (verse from Matthew follows to show this is wrong) it needs to be understood that Oneness people are called Oneness because they do not believe in the Trinity so baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit would be wrong according to them

excerpt:

Being baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is not the same as being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Jesus gave the command to baptize in a singular name, and the apostles obeyed the command and baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

There is not one record of anyone being baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That's because the apostles knew the name was in fact Jesus. If you don't believe that do a search of the entire bible. #704


Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

so wansvic, your argument is with the word as you are so fond of telling others

Thanks
That saves time wondring what in the world he is getting at.

*wondering*

 

[SophieT]

Thanks
That saves time wondring what in the world he is getting at.

right

wansvic has never been forthcoming concerning the Oneness Pentecostal beliefs but we finally got down to it in the 'saved by water' thread

you had to piece together all the clues to finally reach the truth

anyway, clears up all the other things about baptism and so on

 

[SophieT]

I am unaware of scripture actually establishing non immersion in relation to water baptism.

thing is, you consistently confuse spirit baptism with water baptism

you lump all the scriptures together which leads to a confused understanding

you can't do that; but yet you do

 

[Wansvic]

Thanks
That saves time wondring what in the world he is getting at.

*wondering*

Anyone who wishes to understand what Jesus meant in Matthew 28:19 need only to look up each detailed water baptism recorded. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) The evidence is in the word itself. Every water baptism is done in the name of the Lord Jesus. Why? Because it is Jesus who was crucified for mankind. Paul made a point of indicating this in his conversation with the Corinthian's in 1 Cor. 1:12-15. Also relevant is the fact that in Jesus dwells all of the fulness of the Godhead. How do we know this? The bible tells us so, and makes a distinct association with baptism. Colossians 2:9-13.

Those who are interested in seeing who decided churches should use the phrase instead of obey Jesus' command can easily find the answer if they so desire. Do an Internet search.

 

[infinitekhanol]

God's truth is always confirmed by 2-3 scriptures. As such, water baptism is by immersion. This lines up with one being buried as someone else mentioned in an earlier post. Individual's who are being water baptized in the name of Jesus are being buried with Him, ie, being placed under the water. (Rom. 6:4)

The biblical record is clear as to the need to be water baptized in the name of Jesus. There is not one water baptism record where the the phrase, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is used. When it is understood that the apostles obeyed Jesus' command as recorded in Matthew 28:19 the truth becomes clear. The apostles used the name of the Lord Jesus in each and every recorded water baptism because Jesus is the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Colossians 2:9 tells us this: "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

The following is a list of all water baptisms. Each confirms the truth that the name of Jesus was consistently used in water baptism: Acts 2:38, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16. Consider as well that Paul confirmed that water baptism was in fact done in a name. And that name was the name of the one who was crucified for all mankind; the Lord Jesus. (1 Corinthians 1:12-15)

on the issue of Baptism by immersion, I have stated my understanding of the scripture and that will suffix.

Well, Jesus is not the name of the Father, Son and the holy Ghost, but the name of the Son of God. Of course, in him dwellest all the fulness of the Godhead bodily as the scripture stated. Even though Jesus Christ is God, the name Jesus is reserved for the Son and not the Father or the Holy Ghost.

 

[Wansvic]

on the issue of Baptism by immersion, I have stated my understanding of the scripture and that will suffix.

Well, Jesus is not the name of the Father, Son and the holy Ghost, but the name of the Son of God. Of course, in him dwellest all the fulness of the Godhead bodily as the scripture stated. Even though Jesus Christ is God, the name Jesus is reserved for the Son and not the Father or the Holy Ghost.

Please explain why the apostles consistently water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. No use of the phrase occurs in any of the recorded water baptisms.

Do you realize that Jesus said to use a singular name?

 

[infinitekhanol]

My comment was in response to your initial comment below, that you now contradict.

Your comment: "Non immersion is equally established. Therefore, it is either by immersion or otherwise. If it is by immersion alone, one has to prove via scripture that all those baptised in their houses for instance had swimming pool or rivers flowing in their basement!"

My response:
Interestingly, the account of the jailor actually implies the group returned from somewhere: "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house." Acts 16:33-34

I am unaware of scripture actually establishing non immersion in relation to water baptism.

I see no contradiction in what I said. Maybe, you may have to go through it again.

 

[lamad]

people sin because in thier minds and hearts they have the knowledge of the world rather than that of God

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬
...

This passage from Mark is speaking of an unregenerate person. Their human spirit is a sin generator.

It is not so after one is born again. From that moment on, their "within" or regenerated spirit wants to serve God.

 

[Wansvic]

thing is, you consistently confuse spirit baptism with water baptism

you lump all the scriptures together which leads to a confused understanding

you can't do that; but yet you do

This is a perception of yours.

 

[infinitekhanol]

Please explain why the apostles consistently water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. No use of the phrase occurs in any of the recorded water baptisms.

Do you realize that Jesus said to use a singular name?

What do you mean by using a singular name? I have not come across that. which scripture should I consult? Please clarify before I attempt to answer your question.

 

[Wansvic]

well that is your belief which you learned at your ONENESS PENTECOSTAL church.

EVERY believer in Christ is sealed with the Spirit of God when they are first saved and become a member of God's family

being filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is a separate occurrence and not everyone will speak in tongues, even though you have posted many times that if a person does not speak in tongues they are not saved

And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 1:13

what does that say? YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT WHEN YOU BELIEVED THE WORD OF TRUTH

no hoops to jump through as you try to state

no convoluted procedure involving baptism in water or other erroneous teachings of your church

Ephesians specifically states they believed the word of truth and were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. This is reflected in what occurred on the Day of Pentecost. After believing in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection the group was upset and wanted to know what they were to do. They did not automatically receive the Holy Ghost at that point. Afterward Peter provides them with instructions in Acts 2:38 they obey his commands the result is recorded in verses 39 through 41.

Acts 2:39-41
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

 

[Wansvic]

having read and participated in a number of his/her threads (don't know which it is) wansvic believes that you are not saved unless you are water baptized and you must be baptized in Jesus name only and if you were baptized in the names of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit you must get yourself re-baptized

this is because wansvic is ONENESS PENTECOSTAL and does not believe as do those who are convinced of the Trinitarian doctrine

wansvic also believes that faith in Christ alone does not save...they believe that water actually cleanses of sin and not the blood of Christ alone

further, wansvic does not believe what scripture teaches regarding being sealed by the Holy Spirit upon confession of Christ and acknowledging your sins and need of Christ as your Savior. this belief of wansvic's is in direct opposition to what scripture teaches

people are simply tired of these threads and most of those who participated in them no longer bother because it is just a broken record with no basis in scripture

a search will disclose all wansvic's attempts at trying to persuade believers they are wrong and should believe differently than they do

What one believes is of no consequence. What is, is what is confirmed by the word. All will be judged by it, and I for one am going to continue to shout it from the rooftops if need be. Keep in mind that the word cautions all to avoid relying on traditions of men. (Colossians 2:8)

 

[Wansvic]

and the many are correct because that is what is written in the word

And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 1:13

Refusing to accept what is specifically presented from the word is not wise. Doctrine is not to be formulated from one scripture.

 

[Wansvic]

it should also be noted that wansvic believes if you do not speak in tongues you do not have the Holy Spirit

this is also in direct opposition to scripture.

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13

when we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit...WHEN WE BELIEVE AND NOT AFTER BAPTISM

further

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. I Corinthians 12

backing up and reading the entire chapter of I Cor 12, it is evident that different gifts are given to different people. All do NOT speak in tongues and Paul did say he wished all would do so, but it is plain that he TEACHES that ALL DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES

so ALL believers have the Holy Spirit...we are sealed with the Holy Spirit...some speak in tongues when they are first saved and some speak in tongues later and some never speak in tongues but there are different gifts

This is an example of not rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Wansvic]

Good of you to be sharing this, as it speeds up the process of getting to know him better.

I will say he presents some excellent arguments regarding the outpouring, however. Some of it is very well presented.

Thank you for the kind words. However, presenting the word is what is compelling. Sadly, many man-made traditions are so deeply rooted that many refuse to even acknowledge what is clearly stated in the word.

 

[Wansvic]

What do you mean by using a singular name? I have not come across that. which scripture should I consult? Please clarify before I attempt to answer your question.

Matt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

For your convenience, the following are the actual scriptures associated with people being water baptized:

Acts 2:38-39 (Jewish) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans-half jewish-half gentile)
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


Acts 10:44-48 (Gentiles) This scripture specifically confirms baptism in the name of the Lord is actually water baptism.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who did not realize they had to water baptized in Jesus name)
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.



Acts 22:14-16 (Paul's water baptism)
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.