How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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Again, your personal attacks don't make what you say true, in fact they do just the opposite. To say it can't be interpreted as figurative is pushing the boundaries of rationality.
You do know that the literal 1000 year reign of Christ is not taught by most denominations--many Christians including myself up until two years ago had never heard of it--to us it doesn't fit the rest of prophetic scripture and Jesus' own words and is therefore false.
Please give me one or two bible verses other than Revelation where Jesus taught a literal 1000 year reign.
"The one who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know."--1st Corinthians 8:2
What is given by Christ in Revelation is enough. There are books of the bible that contain thing not found elsewhere. This is not evidence to refuse to accept what Revelation 20 says.
I do believe that the 'Wrath of God' will be "fairly short" (days-at-most); however, the "7 minutes" was only for relative comparison - to make a point.
I am thinking that the most probable scenario has everyone involved already brainwashed into believing that whatever they see "in the sky" must be some kind of alien invasion threat...Another question, where it says (in 16:14,16 and ESPECIALLY in 19:19) [where John saw] "...and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together TO MAKE WAR AGAINST Him that sat on the horse, AND AGAINST His army"... is it your understanding that these "kings of the earth, and their armies" (esp. in view of what 16:14,16 says) are cognizant of the fact that they are going "TO WAR [AGAINST]," at least, against something [or someones]...? (iow, are they aware they are headed for the purpose of warring against, or are they simply following the direction of "the spirits of devils" without their really being cognizant of their going "TO WAR AGAINST" something [or someones in particular... but who?? from their perspective]... according to how you're seeing this? Just wondering (... if you can grasp what I'm endeavoring to convey here)
I'm sorry ewq,this should be a HUGE Red flag for all of you.There are countless old testament prophecies about the end times and the apostles asked Jesus what the signs of His coming would be and He told them. There is no way Jesus would leave out something like a 1000 literal year reign. Again neither He nor any of the apostles or the old testament prophets make mention of it.
Again--that should be a HUGE RED FLAG.
He didn't leave it out. He told John about it.
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
Christ speaks of them holding fast until he returns, his second coming.
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
After the end there will be saints who have power over the nations/gentiles!
Rev 2:27 And he (each overcoming saint) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
So after the second coming, and after saints overcoming, and after "the end" there will be power given to the overcomers over the nations/gentiles in conjunction with a rule with a rod of iron (which breaks their organizations apart).
And of course there still needs to be a judgment day for the unsaved after this period of overcomers having "power over the nations" where there is "rule with a rod of iron".
Exactly what is found in chapters 19 and 20 of Revelation.
Same scriptures using some colored comments:
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. (Christ speaks of the second coming, also seen in Rev 19)
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: (after the second coming the saints become overcomers, and AFTER THE END they are given power and rule over the nations/gentiles)
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Again, proof that "the end" is not the end. There is rule over the gentile nations AFTER the second coming and AFTER the "end".
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. (as seen in Rev 19 the second coming)
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. (as seen in Rev 20 where some of the unsaved and satan live for a period of TIME, the thousand years)
Here also is corroboration of the Millennium where after the beast is destroyed by fire (same as in Rev 19 just prior to the Millennium) there are some beasts left alive to have their lives prolonged (for a thousand years no less), which is why satan and a large number of unsaved gentiles live through the 1000 years.
Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
The beast even has 3.5 years to reign over the saints, we see the same in Rev 13 about the beast overcoming the saints and having 42 months which is the same time length.
Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This predicts a period of time in this age, before the NHNE, where there shall be no more wars. This is another verse that corroborates Premill and the idea of a future period of time (the Millennium) before the NHNE that is peaceful and without war. Where in Amill can this war-less period of time exist within the latter days? Answer is, there is no room in Amill to have these verses fulfilled.
Isa 24:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Again, after the second coming, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion and in Jerusalem, we see a period of time where the unsaved wicked
2 Corinthians 4:
1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
So - it "works for you" as long as you are not the one who is unwilling to have a disussion based on someone else's effort?gary,
"play the tape." yep.
i'm not sure how i ended back in pre-trib as it was one of the first forums i participated in--and i feel as you do--i take time to carefully construct an argument with bible verses and then....crickets.....why do i keep doing it? i'm in another forum--only when someone comments --it's the same person who has decided what my position is and obviously is not reading what I actually wrote and is clueless as to what actually believe. it is both frustrating and sad. I have learned some--not that I've ever changed my position--but expanded it on it, e.g. seeing verses I had read but seeing them in a new light.
However...I do feel I have often wasted my time and not to sound arrogant, but 'cast my pearls before swine'. So many answers are simply ad hominem attacks -- such as "that's baloney", "you are absolutely positively wrong!" and i have proven you wrong--just by saying that (i actually have given zero bible verses to back up what i'm saying)--that sort of nonsense.
Anyway, all that to say I get it.
Are you [really that] afraid to address/discuss the real meaning of 2 Peter 3:8 - to the point of making the defensive maneuver [to just] "shoot (thumb) it down and move on" - instead of taking the attitude that you might be able to see something 'in a new light'? (your statement from above)
Are you not doing something very similar to that which you "complain about" above?
I can appreciate what you wrote in the above quote; however, if you are going to do the very thing that you detest - what is that all about?
You are bouncing all-over-the-place in a back-and-forth with others --- did what I posted really scare you that much? Why the brick-wall bazooka reaction?
Are you not feeling "confident" enough to withstand a discussion from another person's POV?
If all you want to do (like most) is "spout your bit" - is that not the same thing as "playing your tape"...???
Whether you realize it or not, it was offered with the friendly brotherly-love intent to edify.
You can take it as though it were harsh - but, I really wish you wouldn't - I really am not in this to have a peeing contest - simple, kind, friendly discussion is all I really desire.
Only, when others start throwing mud-and-rocks - well - we all know it just goes down hill from there...
Let us not throw mud-and-rocks - but, rather, discuss in a manner that will edify - or, politely decline...
First you say there is no rapture.
Then you say the Saints rise up at the white horses coming
Now you want the mil to disappear
i have been filled with the Holy Spirit and understand Scripture very well - here is some help for you.
LITERAL - When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
1.) LITERAL water for a LITERAL Jesus to be LITERALLY Baptized
2.) LITERAL Heavens were LITERALLY Opened to a LITERAL Jesus
3.) LITERAL Spirit from a LITERAL God LITERALLY descending upon a LITERAL Jesus
4.) LITERAL Voice from a LITERAL Heaven LITERALLY speaking to all LITERAL people who LITERALLY heard the Literal Voice
5.) LITERAL God is LITERALLY Pleased with His LITERAL Son
6.) LITERAL Spirit LITERALLY descends in a *SYMBOLIC* but LITERAL Form of a LITERAL Dove
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I know there is a great tribulation and rapture. A literal Thousand year... Millennial Kingdom after the GT and rapture is what I don't get.
I am going to prayerfully, review, and study the scriptures pertaining to MK again. I'm going to organize my thoughts on it (which could take a while) and after that point I will more than likely have many questions for all of you guys.
Thank you and @Laura798, @DavidTree, @ewq1938, @TheDivineWatermark, and anyone else for posting info and scriptures on it.
Good morning David,
There are thousands of literal verses in the bible; your posting these verses does not prove that a 1000 year reign is literal.
Also, you won't find anywhere in scripture where an apostle says what you said--truthfully it sounds arrogant. "i have been filled with the Holy Spirit and understand Scripture very well - here is some help for you." Saying this about yourself does not make what you believe truth.
Humility before God is what is needed. I wonder if you would ever consider praying "Father show me your truth, not the truth of what I've been taught--take of any doctrinal lens that might be preventing me from seeing your truth."
I'm sure if you look you will find people who believed as you did, but after careful studies realized they were wrong.
I think at this point, I'm leaning heavily toward the Millennial Kingdom not taking place literally after the GT and rapture.Question
Is Revelation 20 suppose to be interpreted literally or symbolically? What about the 1000 years?
Answer
There are many views of the millennium, or thousand-year period (Rev. 20:1-6). The three most prominent are Pre-Millennialism (Pre-Mill); Post-Millennialism (Post-Mill); and Amillennialism (A-Mill). In general, Pre-Millennialism believes the millennium begins after the Second Coming of Christ. In Post-Mill (meaning, "after the millennium"), the assertion made is that the millennium occurs toward the end of the church age. In the A-Mill, view we assert that the millennium was: (1) inaugurated in Christ's life, death, resurrection and ascension; (2) continues through the church age; and (3) then is consummated at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Those in the Pre-Mill camp normally look at Revelation and take it literally. However, can a chain literally hold the Devil? (Rev. 20:1). What kind of lock or seal is John referring too? Of course, we should also ask what is a Dragon as well? Is this to be literally interpreted too? Apparently not, as the Apostle John also refers to him as "that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan" (Rev. 20:2). In other words, John sees the Dragon as the serpent in the Garden (Gen. 3:1), who is the equivalent of the Devil or Satan. So, John himself says he is using the word symbolically. Since this is the case, then shouldn't 1,000 years be interpreted symbolically too?
The book of Revelation contains multiple visions. Since this is the case, the Apocalypse uses a lot of symbolism. For instance:
(to see list of symbols click on the article link at the end--could not post all because of word count limit)While the list above is not by any means exhaustive, every chapter of the book of Revelation contains symbolism; this includes Revelation 20. So, one applying literal interpretation methods will necessarily misinterpret the entire book.
1,000 years should also be interpreted symbolically. There are many reasons for this: (1) the figurative use of numbers in the Apocalypse (Rev. 5:11; 7:4-9; 9:16; 14:1; 21:16); (2) the figurative use of other terms (chain, abyss, dragon, serpent, locked, sealed, etc.) in Revelation 20; (3) the figurative use of 1000 in the Old Testament (Deut. 1:1-11; 7:9; 32:30; Josh. 23:10; Job 9:3; 33:23; Pss. 50:10; 68:17; 84:10; Eccl. 6:6; Song 4:4; Isa. 7:23; Isa. 30:17; and especially 1 Chron. 16:15-17 = Psa. 105:8-10, where God's "covenant forever" and "everlasting covenant" are equated with "the word which He commanded to a thousand generations"). See Greg Beale in The Book of Revelation (The New International Greek Testament Commentary, Eerdmans).
Related Questions:
Other reasons Amillennialism is correct?
Answer by Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr.
Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr., D.D., M.Div. is the Theological Editor at Third Millennium Ministries (Thirdmill).
https://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/46755
At this point in my studies, it just doesn't make sense that this world would just start over for another 1000 years after the GT.
Most scriptures that I've read indicate that when Jesus returns, he's coming back for judgement. I can't see a judgement taking place and then this world go on for another thousand years and then another judgment taking place.
I'm still studying the scriptures pertaining to this and trying to get all the scriptures together so thanks for your well-thought-out posts and scriptures.
That of course goes without saying.
Again, and again. and AGAIN I ask, where is this 1000 year reign spoken of other than the HIGHLY Symbolic book of Revelation? The HUGE problem is Jesus, the old testament prophets, and the apostles ALL spoke of the end times--none of them--though I see how people try to 'make' scripture say what they want it to say (eisegesis)---none speak of a literal thousand year reign of Christ. How important it is to understand what a VISION is--just like a dream the things in the dream are representative of something else--they are not the literal thing. This mix and match of Revelation is so incredibly convoluted, but it is simple to test it with the rest of scripture for "God is not the author of confusion."
Humility you lack Dear Sister as you have numerous times refuted clear Scripture to hold unto a religious belief system.
And as far as my Testimony of what God has done for me and you assaulting it with your pride:
#1. His Word and His Spirit the Evidence any believer needs for Salvation and understanding
#2. i do not twist Scripture or add or take away as you claim to support your position
#3. You have never embraced the TRUTH of Scripture as to Luke 16:19-31
#4. You exalt yourself over Scripture by refuting anything that opposes your religious belief system of SYMBOLISM
#5. This SYMBOLISM religion that you trust in is your current blindness and hardness of heart
#6. What God has declared as Literal do not deny it with "Symbolism"