Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Jocund]

And that fact explains why the Millennial population will be the survivors of the Trib; all unbelievers. That also explains WHY there WILL BE a huge rebellion when Satan is released at the end of the Millennium.

If believers only are left to populate the earth during the Millennium, how in the world could there be a rebellion at Christ's reign?

Who represents Gog and Magog is an interesting question. There are a few possibilities that come to mind.

1) offspring of mortal humans
2) inanimate objects that were willed into being people
3) demons, devils, etc. that take over animals.
4) fallen angels or the like that follow Satan

I'm not sure whether it's ever made clear that Gog and Magog are actually mortal humans

 

[FreeGrace2]

Because they are unbelievers is why. The ones who survive the Tribulation but aren't raptured with believers who "are alive and remain" until the coming of our Lord, will be able to reproduce during the Millennium.

OK. That's my point as well.

Do you have an answer as to why the whole world will rebel against the King of kings after Satan is released?

Yes. Only mortal unbelievers will populate the post trib world. When Satan is released, he will easily organize the final rebellion against God.

But there's more. In Matt 5, Jesus gives us information about how he will "rule with a rod of iron" during the Millennium. He will hold people accountable for their thoughts/motives. iow, He will rule based on the "spirit of the Law" rather than on the "letter of the Law".

That will make unbelievers very resentful.

I've already addressed that at least twice! When Christ returns He immediately destroys the anti-christ, those who believed during the tribulation and are saved (still alive) at this point of His coming are carried over into the Kingdom reign.

These mortal natural bodies will continue through the 1000 years and eventually over into the Perfect Age.

The unbelievers who survive the Trib will all be resurrected (the second one) to appear at the GWT judgment in Rev 20. They will all be cast into the lake of fire.

The difference between our views, as I see it in my belief, is that the rapture Paul speaks of takes place before the tribulation.

I cannot believe that because:
1. There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
2. The Bible teaches very clearly that there is just ONE resurrection of the saved, and the resurrection of martyrs from the Trib are in the FIRST resurrection. There can't be previous resurrections.
3. 1 Cor 15:23 shows clearly that the resurrection of "those who belong to Him" is "when He comes".

In this view, when the Lord returns, the resurrection of Rev. 20 is for the tribulation saints only with the Church saints having been taken away 7 years prior.

Then you've got to provide a very reasonable explanation of the SINGULAR resurrection clearly noted in:
1. Luke 14:14
2. Acts 24:15
3. 1 Cor 15:23
4. 2 Thess 2:1

So the tribulation saints that are alive will remain mortal and reproduce during the 1000 years, along with the 1/3 of the Jews who lived through the tribulation and have natural bodies.

Can't happen. Since Rev 20 says martyrs from the Trib will be resurrected, and there are several passages where "those who belong to Him" are resurrected, and rapture is included in 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4, and there is JUST ONE resurrection, all believers will be given their glorified bodies at the same time.

Your view has the martyrs from the Trib missing out totally on the wedding supper. I don't see how that can make sense.

As the population grows by 10's of millions over the 1000 years, there will be many who will not accept Christ but will be forced to obey until Satan is released and stirs them into rebellion. That's the way I see it.

Lots of holes, as I have pointed out.

Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will bereleased from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It says "the nations" are deceived. Sounds like the whole population. Where would the mortal believers be and why doesn't the Bible say anything about their future in the "new heaven and earth". Again, doesn't make sense.

As far as the unbelievers at the Second Coming, they are dealt with by Christ in Matt. 25:31-46, whose end is everlasting fire.

Well, that is covered clearly at the end of Rev 20, after they are resurrected for the GWT judgment. That doesn't happen when Christ returns but AFTER the battle of Gog and Magog. 1,000 years after the Second Advent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And that fact explains why the Millennial population will be the survivors of the Trib; all unbelievers. That also explains WHY there WILL BE a huge rebellion when Satan is released at the end of the Millennium.

If believers only are left to populate the earth during the Millennium, how in the world could there be a rebellion at Christ's reign?

Since Trib martyrs will be resurrected at Christ's return, why do you assume that the living believers won't be "changed" as 1 Cor 15:52 plainly says, along with 1 Thess 4?

Please explain why surviving believers from the Trib miss out on both the wedding supper, and receiving a glorified body.

Your theory is just full of holes.

Simple: 1 Cor 15 was written to the church.

That is your opinion only. 1 Cir 15:23 says "those who belong to Him". Are you going to argue that believers in the Messiah from Adam on DON'T "belong to Him"????? Nonsense. EVERY believer belongs to Christ. Please don't kid yourself.

Paul told the Corinthians that the singular resurrection was for EVERY believer from Adam on. That is very clear.

It is a parallel passage to 1 Thes. 4 and there Paul adds timing information: BEFORE WRATH.

Show me the verse that 1 Thess 4 that says the resurrection/rapture is before wrath.

All those alive when He comes the NEXT time, but only to the clouds, will be pretrib and prewrath.

This has no support from the Bible. In fact, there are NO VERSES showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

And at that time all who are "In Christ," and born again WILL BE changed - fulfilling that verse.

Every living believer will be changed which means given their glorified bodies when ALL the dead saints are resurrected first. It all occurs at the same event, in order. The dead first, and then the living believers are gathered together.

Question: can you find a verse anywhere that shows us believers after the rapture are called "the church?"

This isn't a legitimate question. There is just ONE resurrection of saved people, as I have proven from Scripture.

Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus indicates. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.

Rev 20-

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.

Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'

Given your view, you have a LOT of verses to exegete AND prove don't mean what I say they mean. They words are clear enough.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And that fact explains why the Millennial population will be the survivors of the Trib; all unbelievers. That also explains WHY there WILL BE a huge rebellion when Satan is released at the end of the Millennium.

If believers only are left to populate the earth during the Millennium, how in the world could there be a rebellion at Christ's reign?

Who represents Gog and Magog is an interesting question. There are a few possibilities that come to mind.

1) offspring of mortal humans
2) inanimate objects that were willed into being people
3) demons, devils, etc. that take over animals.
4) fallen angels or the like that follow Satan

The Bible says "the battle of Gog and Magog". It's a battle and the Bible also says "the nations will be deceived".

I'm not sure whether it's ever made clear that Gog and Magog are actually mortal humans

There is no other category of humanity left BUT unbelievers.

When Christ comes back at the Second Advent, EVERY believer from Adam on will receive their glorified bodies, and serve the King for His 1,000 year reign.

 

[Charlie24]

OK. That's my point as well.


Yes. Only mortal unbelievers will populate the post trib world. When Satan is released, he will easily organize the final rebellion against God.

But there's more. In Matt 5, Jesus gives us information about how he will "rule with a rod of iron" during the Millennium. He will hold people accountable for their thoughts/motives. iow, He will rule based on the "spirit of the Law" rather than on the "letter of the Law".

That will make unbelievers very resentful.





The unbelievers who survive the Trib will all be resurrected (the second one) to appear at the GWT judgment in Rev 20. They will all be cast into the lake of fire.


I cannot believe that because:
1. There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.
2. The Bible teaches very clearly that there is just ONE resurrection of the saved, and the resurrection of martyrs from the Trib are in the FIRST resurrection. There can't be previous resurrections.
3. 1 Cor 15:23 shows clearly that the resurrection of "those who belong to Him" is "when He comes".


Then you've got to provide a very reasonable explanation of the SINGULAR resurrection clearly noted in:
1. Luke 14:14
2. Acts 24:15
3. 1 Cor 15:23
4. 2 Thess 2:1


Can't happen. Since Rev 20 says martyrs from the Trib will be resurrected, and there are several passages where "those who belong to Him" are resurrected, and rapture is included in 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4, and there is JUST ONE resurrection, all believers will be given their glorified bodies at the same time.

Your view has the martyrs from the Trib missing out totally on the wedding supper. I don't see how that can make sense.


Lots of holes, as I have pointed out.

Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will bereleased from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It says "the nations" are deceived. Sounds like the whole population. Where would the mortal believers be and why doesn't the Bible say anything about their future in the "new heaven and earth". Again, doesn't make sense.


Well, that is covered clearly at the end of Rev 20, after they are resurrected for the GWT judgment. That doesn't happen when Christ returns but AFTER the battle of Gog and Magog. 1,000 years after the Second Advent.

Man do I despise multiple posting! When a post is broken up 4-5 times, that creates 4-5 different conversations and as a result, confusion. I don't use it, I address one direct subject when I post to make sure the confusion is at a minimum, to be understood.

Now we have a conglomerated mess, imo! So I will address the first response where we disagree.

You said, "Only mortal unbelievers will populate the post trib world."

If you've read Matt. 25:31-46 you will see that when Christ comes to take His throne at the Second Coming, all the Goats on His left hand (unbelievers) are assigned "everlasting fire."

That makes it impossible for "the mortal unbelievers to populate the the post-trib world.

It is those who are saved during the tribulation, who survived by way of Christ intervening at the Second Coming, both Jews and Gentiles who repopulate during the 1000 year reign!

 

[ewq1938]

If you've read Matt. 25:31-46 you will see that when Christ comes to take His throne at the Second Coming, all the Goats on His left hand (unbelievers) are assigned "everlasting fire."

That makes it impossible for "the mortal unbelievers to populate the the post-trib world.

That's Amill nonsense. The Goats and the fire is not at the second coming. It happens after the thousand years is over:



Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

By this timeframe the second coming is completed.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


And this is when goats are cast into the fire.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You said, "Only mortal unbelievers will populate the post trib world."

If you've read Matt. 25:31-46 you will see that when Christ comes to take His throne at the Second Coming, all the Goats on His left hand (unbelievers) are assigned "everlasting fire."

Why assume that occurs WHEN Christ returns at the Second Advent? When you read all of Rev 20, we see the Second Advent of Christ, Satan bound for 1000 yrs, a resurrection of martyrs from the Trib, who will reign with Christ for 1,000 yrs, and finally the final battle of Gog and Magog, where Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Then, immediately there will be the GWT judgment of all unbelievers, who will then be cast into the lake of fire.

That makes it impossible for "the mortal unbelievers to populate the the post-trib world.

So who's left?

It is those who are saved during the tribulation, who survived by way of Christ intervening at the Second Coming, both Jews and Gentiles who repopulate during the 1000 year reign!

OK. Poor souls. They will miss the wedding supper of their Savior, be unable to serve in the kingdom, and NEVER receive a glorifed body.

Nope.

 

[Charlie24]

Why assume that occurs WHEN Christ returns at the Second Advent? When you read all of Rev 20, we see the Second Advent of Christ, Satan bound for 1000 yrs, a resurrection of martyrs from the Trib, who will reign with Christ for 1,000 yrs, and finally the final battle of Gog and Magog, where Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Then, immediately there will be the GWT judgment of all unbelievers, who will then be cast into the lake of fire.


So who's left?


OK. Poor souls. They will miss the wedding supper of their Savior, be unable to serve in the kingdom, and NEVER receive a glorifed body.

Nope.

We disagree on so much! As I look at your order of events I see the battle of Gog and Magog placed after the 1000 year reign.

That is addressed in Ezek. 38, it is the battle of Armageddon when the anti-christ attacks Israel during the tribulation. We are nowhere near agreeing on much of anything.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

We disagree on so much! As I look at your order of events I see the battle of Gog and Magog placed after the 1000 year reign.

That is addressed in Ezek. 38, it is the battle of Armageddon when the anti-christ attacks Israel during the tribulation. We are nowhere near agreeing on much of anything.

Do you agree Satan and his demons comes out physically in human form, after beginning of sorrows? Just so Satan can have all nonelects worship him. Would make sense if demons are hiding in human form as high government officials, false famous preachers, rich people and more.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

Romans 8:35-39

King James Version



35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Charlie24]

Do you agree Satan and his demons comes out physically in human form, after beginning of sorrows? Just so Satan can have all nonelects worship him. Would make sense if demons are hiding in human form as high government officials, false famous preachers, rich people and more.

I don't know! What I believe is everything that happens on earth will first unfold in heaven.

There are many aspects to these things taking place physically on earth, but this is war in heaven that unfolds on earth, imo.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We disagree on so much! As I look at your order of events I see the battle of Gog and Magog placed after the 1000 year reign.

That is addressed in Ezek. 38,

It is also addressed in Revelation 20.

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theyhad not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

it is the battle of Armageddon when the anti-christ attacks Israel during the tribulation. We are nowhere near agreeing on much of anything.

Didn't you notice v.8? Says very clearly that the battle of Gog and Magog is AFTER Satan is released "when the 1,000 years are over.

The battle of Armageddon is at the end of the Trib, and Jesus returns (Second Advent) and ends that battle, casts the a/c and false prophet ALIVE into the lake of fire, and sets up His kingdom.

Maybe you are just confused on the battles. There are 2; one at the end of the Trib and one at the end of the Millennial reign.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't know! What I believe is everything that happens on earth will first unfold in heaven.

You mean all the sin first occurs in heaven?

 

[Charlie24]

It is also addressed in Revelation 20.

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. Theyhad not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Didn't you notice v.8? Says very clearly that the battle of Gog and Magog is AFTER Satan is released "when the 1,000 years are over.

The battle of Armageddon is at the end of the Trib, and Jesus returns (Second Advent) and ends that battle, casts the a/c and false prophet ALIVE into the lake of fire, and sets up His kingdom.

Maybe you are just confused on the battles. There are 2; one at the end of the Trib and one at the end of the Millennial reign.

I'm not confused! I have already addressed this, I guess you didn't see it.

Rev. 20:8, "Gog and Magog" is not a place, it is a Hebrew term meaning "multitude and magnitude." It includes all the nation of the earth. As John said, "the four quarters of the earth."

You are making a huge mistake by taking Rev. 20:8 as referring to Ezek. 38, it does not!

 

[Charlie24]

You mean all the sin first occurs in heaven?

LOL, it was my impression that for sin to be sin, it must unfold on earth! At least as far as it can effect man.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not confused! I have already addressed this, I guess you didn't see it.

I do read your posts before I respond.

Rev. 20:8, "Gog and Magog" is not a place, it is a Hebrew term meaning "multitude and magnitude." It includes all the nation of the earth. As John said, "the four quarters of the earth."

See? You are confused. I never said it was a "place". The Bible describes the battle with those words. I even quoted from Rev 20/

I guess you didn't see it.

You are making a huge mistake by taking Rev. 20:8 as referring to Ezek. 38, it does not!

I never said it did. What is very clear is that the Millennial reign ends with a battle, with the words "Gog and Magog" attached to the battle. If Ezek 38 doesn't agree with Rev 20:8 then you are misunderstanding Ezek 38. It is that simple.

What occurs after that battle? The GWT judgment, where ALL unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.

What occurs after that? The present earth is dissolved and there will be a new heaven and earth. Rev 21.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You mean all the sin first occurs in heaven?

LOL, it was my impression that for sin to be sin, it must unfold on earth! At least as far as it can effect man.

Then why did you make that comment "whatever occurs on earth FIRST occurs in heaven".

 

[Charlie24]

I do read your posts before I respond.


See? You are confused. I never said it was a "place". The Bible describes the battle with those words. I even quoted from Rev 20/

I guess you didn't see it.


I never said it did. What is very clear is that the Millennial reign ends with a battle, with the words "Gog and Magog" attached to the battle. If Ezek 38 doesn't agree with Rev 20:8 then you are misunderstanding Ezek 38. It is that simple.

What occurs after that battle? The GWT judgment, where ALL unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire.

What occurs after that? The present earth is dissolved and there will be a new heaven and earth. Rev 21.

Not going to argue this! If you can see a parallel with Rev. 20:7-10 and Ezek. 38-39, then you have quite an imagination to say the least.

 

[Charlie24]

FreeGrace2 said:
You mean all the sin first occurs in heaven?

Then why did you make that comment "whatever occurs on earth FIRST occurs in heaven".

From my studies of Rev. I have come to the conclusion that nothing plays out on earth in the plan of God, that hasn't already taken place in heaven.

In other words, when it unfolds in heaven in the Spiritual realm, it follows with the results being unfolded on earth in the physical realm.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not going to argue this! If you can see a parallel with Rev. 20:7-10 and Ezek. 38-39, then you have quite an imagination to say the least.

I'm not even trying to. My views are based on the clear sequence given in Rev 20 and 21. I don't need OT verses to confirm.

And, you are right; there is nothing to argue. The text is clear enough.