Does One Receive the Holy Ghost the Moment they Believe in Jesus?

[Wansvic]

An important point for all to consider: Why did Jesus give advise about how to receive the Holy Ghost if individuals receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe?

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

 

[ResidentAlien]

An important point for all to consider: Why did Jesus give advise about how to receive the Holy Ghost if individuals receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe?

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

I'm still trying to figure out what your point is. Are you making a case for something?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Acts chapter 8 provides insight on the topic. Notice the group believed the gospel message presented by Philip, and were baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. It was only after Peter and John came and laid hands on them that they actually received the Holy Ghost.

"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-44, 46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you receive the Holy Ghost when you receive the gospel whether your baptized first or later accepting the word of Christ gives his spirit to the believer

It doesn’t matter if your baptized first of anyone lays hands on you or else wise what matters is hearing and believing The true gospel those are The holy spirits words preached through the messiah that cannot change

if we believe the truth we will receive the spirit and gladly get baptized for remission

 

[Wansvic]

I'm still trying to figure out what your point is. Are you making a case for something?

Many state that individuals instantly receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost the moment they accept the message of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. However, many areas of the biblical record dispute this idea. Jesus' own statement that the Father will give the Holy Ghost to those who ask Him provides proof that what many are being taught is not accurate.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I believe "the sinful nature" is the old Spirit man that is put to death at regeneration when one is born again. People sin because we still live in a flesh and blood body that enjoys sin. Our new nature is to follow Jesus by walking in the Spirit.

people sin because in thier minds and hearts they have the knowledge of the world rather than that of God

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have an option of who to serve whether sin or God

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if we keep serving sin we’re going to bear the fruit of death , if we accept the gospel and start following Jesus we’re going to live.

the bottom line is if we are serving satans Will we’re not born again of God if we’re serving Gods Will we are.

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:

whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we sin because we reject Christs call
To repentance in his words and invent the works of the cross to erase everything he said so clearly

 

[Wansvic]

“And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:42-44, 46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you receive the Holy Ghost when you receive the gospel whether your baptized first or later accepting the word of Christ gives his spirit to the believer

It doesn’t matter if your baptized first of anyone lays hands on you or else wise what matters is hearing and believing The true gospel those are The holy spirits words preached through the messiah that cannot change

if we believe the truth we will receive the spirit and gladly get baptized for remission

According to the word, receiving the Holy Ghost can occur in different ways:

Through the laying on of hands as recorded in Acts chapter 8 - Samaritans, and Acts 19 - Jew/Gentile disciples of Ephesus.
Or, spontaneously as seen in Acts chapter 2 - Jews, and Acts 10 - Gentiles.

Also, Jesus said that the Father would give the gift of the Holy Ghost to those who ask. This indicates that a person that hasn't received the Holy Ghost spontaneously or through the laying on of hands after believing the gospel message, has yet another avenue to pursue being indwelt.

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

 

[Pilgrimshope]

According to the word, receiving the Holy Ghost can occur in different ways:

Through the laying on of hands as recorded in Acts chapter 8 - Samaritans, and Acts 19 - Jew/Gentile disciples of Ephesus.
Or, spontaneously as seen in Acts chapter 2 - Jews, and Acts 10 - Gentiles.

Also, Jesus said that the Father would give the gift of the Holy Ghost to those who ask. This indicates that a person that hasn't received the Holy Ghost spontaneously or through the laying on of hands after believing the gospel message, has yet another avenue to pursue being indwelt.

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

yeah it’s always by faith believing what you have heard of the gospel for instance when Paul later his hands on them in Ephesus it wasn’t his hands tag at made the difference

the reason they hadnt received e Holy Spirit is because they hadn’t heard that it was even given so how could they believe and receive him ? We have to hear and believe that’s always going to be Gods mechanism to
Mankind

“He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:2‬ ‭

You receive the spirit by hearing and believing The gospel that teaches us we will receive the Holy Spirit otherwise we’ll be like them saying “ Holy Ghost what’s That ?

we receive the spirit like this

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s no way around the things Jesus taught he’s the one who taught us about the Holy Spirit how to receive it and why

at they hadn’t heard about The spirit somhow could they receive it by faith ? Hearing The gospel is required in order to ever have faith and receive anything he promises

“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

…So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:12-14, 17‬ ‭

The Holy Ghost comes from believing the gospel he sent out to every nation

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we accept the witness we’ll receive the Holy Spirit and yes could be many mechanisms by which we do but my point is it’s impossible unless we hear and believe the gospel that gives the spirit

 

[ResidentAlien]

Many state that individuals instantly receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost the moment they accept the message of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. However, many areas of the biblical record dispute this idea. Jesus' own statement that the Father will give the Holy Ghost to those who ask Him provides proof that what many are being taught is not accurate.

I see. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[ResidentAlien]

This is a subject that's fraught with confusion. People say there are many different experiences: one says the Holy Spirit is received; another says baptized; another says He "comes on" you; still others say you must be filled.

To me the standard way Christians receive the Holy Spirit is through belief and baptism. That's what Peter preached in Acts 2. Jesus received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Jesus also taught the relationship between baptism and the Holy Spirit to Nicodemus: "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.' "—John 3:5

People make it more complicated than it is. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Wansvic]

yeah it’s always by faith believing what you have heard of the gospel for instance when Paul later his hands on them in Ephesus it wasn’t his hands tag at made the difference

the reason they hadnt received e Holy Spirit is because they hadn’t heard that it was even given so how could they believe and receive him ? We have to hear and believe that’s always going to be Gods mechanism to
Mankind

“He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭19:2‬ ‭

You receive the spirit by hearing and believing The gospel that teaches us we will receive the Holy Spirit otherwise we’ll be like them saying “ Holy Ghost what’s That ?

we receive the spirit like this

“This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There’s no way around the things Jesus taught he’s the one who taught us about the Holy Spirit how to receive it and why

at they hadn’t heard about The spirit somhow could they receive it by faith ? Hearing The gospel is required in order to ever have faith and receive anything he promises

“For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

…So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:12-14, 17‬ ‭

The Holy Ghost comes from believing the gospel he sent out to every nation

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we accept the witness we’ll receive the Holy Spirit and yes could be many mechanisms by which we do but my point is it’s impossible unless we hear and believe the gospel that gives the spirit

Something many fail to realize is that Paul's very question makes the point that receiving the Holy Ghost does not happen the moment a person believes the gospel message.
He said unto them, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" Keep in mind he knew nothing about the group when he approached and asked them that question.

Also, consider that the group did not receive the Holy Ghost instantly upon believing Paul's message concerning Jesus. Afterward they were obedient to the command to be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And after submitting to that, Paul laid hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost.

 

[Vindicator]

An important point for all to consider: Why did Jesus give advise about how to receive the Holy Ghost if individuals receive the Holy Ghost the moment they believe?

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

Oh, my! Masterful.

 

[Wansvic]

This is a subject that's fraught with confusion. People say there are many different experiences: one says the Holy Spirit is received; another says baptized; another says He "comes on" you; still others say you must be filled.

To me the standard way Christians receive the Holy Spirit is through belief and baptism. That's what Peter preached in Acts 2. Jesus received the Holy Spirit at His baptism. Jesus also taught the relationship between baptism and the Holy Spirit to Nicodemus: "Jesus answered, 'Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.' "—John 3:5

People make it more complicated than it is. At least that's how I see it.

The biblical record provides a consistent message. Those who accept Jesus' death, burial and resurrection as fact are to turn to God in repentance. And are commanded to submit to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. And, receive the Holy Ghost. As the biblical record confirms this occurs in differing stages but each is nonetheless required. The requirements are consistent as seen in the experiences recorded regarding the Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans. (Acts 2:1-41, 8:12-18, 10:44-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) This confirms that all of mankind is to follow the plan designed by God. This message is a direct parallel to what Jesus said about needing to be born of water and Spirit in John 3:3-5

 

[Wansvic]

Oh, my! Masterful.

God sure is amazing. He put all the answers right before our eyes!

 

[SophieT]

I'm still trying to figure out what your point is. Are you making a case for something?

having read and participated in a number of his/her threads (don't know which it is) wansvic believes that you are not saved unless you are water baptized and you must be baptized in Jesus name only and if you were baptized in the names of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit you must get yourself re-baptized

this is because wansvic is ONENESS PENTECOSTAL and does not believe as do those who are convinced of the Trinitarian doctrine

wansvic also believes that faith in Christ alone does not save...they believe that water actually cleanses of sin and not the blood of Christ alone

further, wansvic does not believe what scripture teaches regarding being sealed by the Holy Spirit upon confession of Christ and acknowledging your sins and need of Christ as your Savior. this belief of wansvic's is in direct opposition to what scripture teaches

people are simply tired of these threads and most of those who participated in them no longer bother because it is just a broken record with no basis in scripture

a search will disclose all wansvic's attempts at trying to persuade believers they are wrong and should believe differently than they do

 

[SophieT]

Many state that individuals instantly receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost the moment they accept the message of Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. However, many areas of the biblical record dispute this idea. Jesus' own statement that the Father will give the Holy Ghost to those who ask Him provides proof that what many are being taught is not accurate.

and the many are correct because that is what is written in the word

And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 1:13

 

[SophieT]

it should also be noted that wansvic believes if you do not speak in tongues you do not have the Holy Spirit

this is also in direct opposition to scripture.

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13

when we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit...WHEN WE BELIEVE AND NOT AFTER BAPTISM

further

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. I Corinthians 12

backing up and reading the entire chapter of I Cor 12, it is evident that different gifts are given to different people. All do NOT speak in tongues and Paul did say he wished all would do so, but it is plain that he TEACHES that ALL DO NOT SPEAK IN TONGUES

so ALL believers have the Holy Spirit...we are sealed with the Holy Spirit...some speak in tongues when they are first saved and some speak in tongues later and some never speak in tongues but there are different gifts

 

[Vindicator]

God sure is amazing. He put all the answers right before our eyes!

They're there, but like many things it takes a receptiveness to the things of God. Same was true of identifying our Lord as the Son of God and not merely a man. Been involved in a thread recently where it is interesting how He never actually identified Himself as the Son of God personally; only as the "Son of man." It was the Father who testified to Him being His Son, and the apostles, who slowly came to recognize who He truly was, especially after the resurrection.

So, too, with the proper teaching regarding the the baptism in the Spirit I suppose. Even many in charismatic circles don't seem to have a full understanding of it these days, and even those who have experienced it don't receive much good teaching on it. But I suppose it was that way with me as well.

So tell me, since you're educated on the subject, what's your calling and your gifts? I don't know if you can send me a conversation without me having a paid membership, but if you can, send me one from your end. I'd be interested to hear your take. My own calling is as a teacher, but I operate in the prophetic as well, and have a burden from the Lord to see that His word is confirmed again with signs and wonders following, albeit online wherever possible.

 

[Vindicator]

having read and participated in a number of his/her threads (don't know which it is) wansvic believes that you are not saved unless you are water baptized and you must be baptized in Jesus name only and if you were baptized in the names of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit you must get yourself re-baptized

this is because wansvic is ONENESS PENTECOSTAL and does not believe as do those who are convinced of the Trinitarian doctrine

wansvic also believes that faith in Christ alone does not save...they believe that water actually cleanses of sin and not the blood of Christ alone

further, wansvic does not believe what scripture teaches regarding being sealed by the Holy Spirit upon confession of Christ and acknowledging your sins and need of Christ as your Savior. this belief of wansvic's is in direct opposition to what scripture teaches

Good of you to be sharing this, as it speeds up the process of getting to know him better.

I will say he presents some excellent arguments regarding the outpouring, however. Some of it is very well presented.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But now, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate experience as the OP has made constant references to throughout this thread, and it is an outpouring of the Spirit in greater measure upon those who have received the Spirit through His word, that they may be empowered supernaturally for ministry.

This is purely a Pentecostal doctrine, which has confused the fulness or filling of the Holy Spirit, with the baptism with the Spirit (not "in" the Holy Spirit).

The fulness of the Spirit means total control of that person by the Holy Spirit, and not necessarily speaking in tongues. We see the phrase "full of the Holy Ghost" many times in the NT, but none of those people spoke in tongues. That was a unique experience on the day of Pentecost as applied to the apostles and the disciples.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is in fact the gift of the Holy Spirit.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This corresponds to the outpouring of the Spirit on the Gentiles gathered in the house of Cornelius: And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 10:45) Now in this case these Gentiles spoke in tongues as a sign to the Jews (who were gathered there) that they too had received the gift of the Holy Spirit. But that was not the norm. In Acts 2, none of those 3,000 Jews spoke in tongues, although they had heard the apostles speaking in at least 15 languages and dialects. That too was a sign to unbelieving Jews.

 

[posthuman]

That's putting the cart before the horse. And since God wants everyone to believe, they would all receive the Holy Spirit "just like that". But that is not biblical.

the objection you raise is essentially 'that if God could cause someone to believe, then God would be evil if He didn't cause everyone to believe, because by leaving anyone out God is de-facto creating someone in order to destroy them'

the answer to that is in Romans 9 - who am i, a man, a vessel, to answer back to God? what if God has indeed prepared some vessels for holy use and some for destruction? shall i accuse Him?
and the answer is in Job 13 - tho He slay me, yet will i trust in Him

the logical fallacy in your argument is that the argument presumes 'goodness' is defined by preservation of human life, and measured by the quantity or percentage of it accomplished. it's not. goodness is defined by God: whatever He does is good, because He is good. goodness is measured by what He does and Who He is.






this is equivalent to 'the trolley problem' - you see an out of control trolley and perceive it will hit one group of people. you also perceive that you can switch the track ahead of it in time to save that group of people, but it will hit a different group of people. the 'problem' is stated in many variations of the groups, or extended to more groups and more switches.
the 'problem' is not that there is some 'right' solution to be sought, for how you flip or do not flip the switches ((vis-a-vis make a value judgemtn between groups)). the intended 'problem,' according to the world, is intended to be existential: that the trolley exists. the fact that there isn't a solution whereby you can affect the prolonged preservation of every human life.
the 'trolley problem' is an attack on the character of God, just as the argument Nehemiah6 suggested. that God is evil because God does not preserve all human life.

the solution to the trolley problem is found in the same basic fallacy: it presumes goodness is measured by the preservation of a quantity or perceived quality of human life -- but all of us return to dust, and God appoints us each a time, for every season.