THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

[SophieT]

I’m not into changing it, just believing it. There are many things I don’t like personally. I can either opt out and Greekify the text to my liking, or suck it up and let the text stand as is. I choose the latter.

you are free to choose whatever you want

but you should probably stop telling people the KJ is the only Bible God wants us to use

 

[John146]

I ask because who decides a manuscript to be superior and how do you know the men were led by the Spirit?

Because God preserved His holy, pure words in English through them.

 

[John146]

you are free to choose whatever you want

but you should probably stop telling people the KJ is the only Bible God wants us to use

Why should I stop telling people to believe God preserved His word for us in the English language in the KJV? I believe it's true and will not stop telling people. If you felt God has preserved His words through whatever version, would you not want people to know?

 

[Dino246]

Because God preserved His holy, pure words in English through them.

Fallacy: circular reasoning.

 

[kaylagrl]

THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

I pray that the Church Leaders will sincerely pray and seek to address this dire situation!

Praying for the women of the Church..........

Since I didn't get an answer to my question I'll take a stab at answering the OP. I found an interesting article and it's close to what I have believed for years. And I believe it's a lot closer to the truth than what some have been taught down through the years.

In this article the author takes into account the time period we are talking about. What was the situation of women? Not only did she take that into account but also the flow of Scripture here that is talking about false doctrine. Here's some points she makes in the article that I think make sense.

1. False teaching was a major problem in Ephesus. Most of it probably came from the Artemis cult and early forms of Gnosticism.
2. The Ephesian women needed to learn because they were “talking nonsense.” They probably brought false teaching into the church hoping Artemis would keep them safe in childbirth.
3. Everyone should learn the truth calmly and submissively.
4. Women shouldn’t dominate men, nor should men dominate women. Just because women in Ephesus were teaching falsely and needed to learn doesn’t mean women can’t be good teachers elsewhere.
5. Contrary to Gnostic ideas, Eve didn’t do something good by seeking “knowledge.” Rather, she was deceived and sinned. 6.God will keep Christian women safe in childbirth. They don’t need Artemis worship.

You mentioned you feel bad for the plight of women in the church. These verses more than any other have been used to abuse women, to silence women, to forbid women to minster and take part in the church. Yet people still doggedly and dogmatically try to pull this instance of Scripture out of context in time and in what was being focused on, false doctrine. False doctrine was rampant, women of that time period were falling for it and were spreading it. That doesn't mean woman for all time are not mature enough in the Lord to know false doctrine. Lord knows we have more men teaching false doctrine in the church this day in age, just watch 10 mins. of TBN. The fact that this subject has caused so much hurt, division, and abuse in the church should have us looking at what we think we know and deep a little deeper. We have wonderful sisters here that are in ministry or have been, even though many would bar the door to them. It's a great pity that some men cannot stop and think how they would feel if they were told they could have no part in services and must remain mute. I don't believe for one minute that that is what Paul was saying to all women of all time. There is a better explanation.

For those who wish to continue to bicker and argue and cause strife, I'd like anyone to explain to me why the good Lord would cut his harvesters in half after making this comment...

“The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.” "We need harvesters!! Pray for more to be sent ou... no not y'all, you all shut up, sit down and be silent !" "Now where are my harvesters?!" Yeah, no, I don't believe that for one minute. As I said in my travels, many of these small country churches were kept totally alive by the women of the church. They could do everything except preach. And some here have said a church should rather be shut down than have a female preacher. smh I will never, ever believe that is God's will.

We had a thread a while back about preachers not harping at men to go to church. I was dumbfounded. I tell you this, if you believe God would punish a woman for spreading the Gospel, what is his punishment for man who sit at home on a Sunday to watch his sports rather than get up and take his children to Sunday School and take his place by his wife in the pew? How many woman have to badger husbands to get them to attend church on Sunday, let alone any other time of the week. Really, who do you think the Lord will be more upset with? smh

For those who are to read the article here is the link...

https://www.cbeinternational.org/re...en-someone-says-women-are-not-permitted-teach

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Because God preserved His holy, pure words in English through them.

I do agree that throughout history, God sovereign nature allowed the Bible to be translated into English. I believe it was his will that the 1000s of manuscripts were preserved in caves, underground ruins, hidden passages, etc all for the sake of textual criticism and preservation of the truth.

But when you say preserved through them (KJV translators) then I question why does textual criticism stop at the KJV? How do you know the translators were inspired by the Holy Spirit? Why the KJV when the Geneva Bible was the KJV's foundational source? What makes the manuscripts used more reliable than others? Would you agree that it was men who decided between English words which best fit the Hebrew or Greek word?

 

[SophieT]

We do not need to know all this to understand the Gospel. It is only once we want to teach or grow in the depth of scripture. When we speak of God's Word as living and breathing this means it will provide wisdom at any stage in your life. Meaning at 8 years old you may easily grasp that faith in Jesus is needed for salvation but at 35 you may fully grasp the idea that faith is founded in grace and not works as so often it takes a deeper understanding of scripture to realize it is our rest in Jesus that frees us from sin and shame.

wise words

really, what else can a person say to try and be helpful. example after example has been given in this thread and in many others when it comes to the KJ only club

If you choose to teach then that is irresponsible to not study the Word. There is a difference between reading and studying.

exactly so

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1

that is a warning to be taken seriously in conjunction with the fact that God by His Spirit actually gives the gift of teaching

 

[SophieT]

I study the word thoroughly. However, I do not change the words to my liking.

you study for yourself. you cannot ignore the fact of errors in translation in the KJ and say you are a teacher

what you do with your own beliefs is one thing...I don't believe those are salvic issues, but trying to teach others from a very opinionated position is not what the word itself tells us to do as my post above provides

 

[SophieT]

Why should I stop telling people to believe God preserved His word for us in the English language in the KJV? I believe it's true and will not stop telling people. If you felt God has preserved His words through whatever version, would you not want people to know?

who do you think you are talking to here? a bunch of dimwits?

you are changing what you said and I obviously have very little patience when people start doing that

you insist that the KJ is actually inspired...you know you do this and anyone who has seen your responses in KJ only threads has seen it also. no one said to stop saying the KJ is (basically) a good English translation so you are adding to what I and others have said...you are being creative with the truth, to put it politely

you go way past just 'English translation' however and you call all other English translations corrupt and you went so far in this particular thread, as to imply that certain wording in a different translation other than the KJ, leads to homosexual behavior

when people start twisting what others said and even twist what they said themselves in order to create a sly narrative, why should anyone take that person as being an honest steward of the word of God?

 

[Dino246]

you study for yourself. you cannot ignore the fact of errors in translation in the KJ and say you are a teacher

There’s the rub: he can’t acknowledge that there are errors in the KJV.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

wise words

really, what else can a person say to try and be helpful. example after example has been given in this thread and in many others when it comes to the KJ only club



exactly so

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1

that is a warning to be taken seriously in conjunction with the fact that God by His Spirit actually gives the gift of teaching

I use the KJV but only in comparison to multiple versions in my study because if my study needs to go that far in depth, I check to see which version has the closest translation to fit the meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words.

In my opinion I feel the KJV is not a good source for evangelism as most people do not speak in old English. It only complicates the message for new believers.

I also find the idea that the KJV is superior to be just silly and find it a mediocre argument.

Of course, the real argument was over the role of women and teaching. Now this is an argument that can either restrict the gifts of women or can give women the liberty to let their gifts edify the body of Christ.

If we say we are of the Holy Spirit but can not detect the Holy Spirit in others then how are we to judge if something is of God? If a women was to teach men the gospel, which is often done on this site as a virtual assembly of believers, and the Holy Spirit gives life to those words, fruit to the wisdom, and enlightenment to the mind, then where is the evil?

What if we are in the days like Deborah where the men on a modern stage will not step up and say here I am Lord. Masculinity is now defined as toxic, our young men are falling into this deviation where statistically each generation is growing further and further from God.

In God's sovereignty there will always be a remnant even if it means God calls a women to lead. This is typically God's style to choose those not culturally accepted.

 

[SophieT]

I use the KJV but only in comparison to multiple versions in my study because if my study needs to go that far in depth, I check to see which version has the closest translation to fit the meaning of the Hebrew or Greek words.

In my opinion I feel the KJV is not a good source for evangelism as most people do not speak in old English. It only complicates the message for new believers.

I also find the idea that the KJV is superior to be just silly and find it a mediocre argument.

Of course, the real argument was over the role of women and teaching. Now this is an argument that can either restrict the gifts of women or can give women the liberty to let their gifts edify the body of Christ.

If we say we are of the Holy Spirit but can not detect the Holy Spirit in others then how are we to judge if something is of God? If a women was to teach men the gospel, which is often done on this site as a virtual assembly of believers, and the Holy Spirit gives life to those words, fruit to the wisdom, and enlightenment to the mind, then where is the evil?

What if we are in the days like Deborah where the men on a modern stage will not step up and say here I am Lord. Masculinity is now defined as toxic, our young men are falling into this deviation where statistically each generation is growing further and further from God.

In God's sovereignty there will always be a remnant even if it means God calls a women to lead. This is typically God's style to choose those not culturally accepted.

agree with this

further, I was brought up on the KJ and I am very familiar with it. in fact, when I am trying to think of a verse, it comes to mind in the KJ version and then I look up other translations...lately, I am liking the Berean translation, but have also studied in the NIV which I do not always find adequate, or new KJ or the NAS

it really is best to do as you point out and use multiple versions...I also like the English Standard, more for the quality of the way it is presented sometimes as prose

bottom line though, the KJ is certainly not inspired as were the original writings. that belief is one of the main arguments for those who adhere to the KJ only and it holds no water

 

[proverbs35]

John146 said:
I study the word thoroughly. However, I do not change the words to my liking

you study for yourself. you cannot ignore the fact of errors in translation in the KJ and say you are a teacher

what you do with your own beliefs is one thing...I don't believe those are salvic issues, but trying to teach others from a very opinionated position is not what the word itself tells us to do as my post above provides

He says that he does not change the words to his liking, yet he supports an English translation (KJV) that changes the word Deacon into servant when addressing Phoebe (a woman) in an effort to strip Phoebe and other women of the title Deacon. That is not consistent with the original Greek language of the NT.

 

[SophieT]

John146 said:
I study the word thoroughly. However, I do not change the words to my liking



He says that he does not change the words to his liking, yet he supports an English translation (KJV) that changes the word Deacon into servant when addressing Phoebe (a woman) in an effort to strip Phoebe and other women of the title Deacon. That is not consistent with the original Greek language of the NT.

it would be funny if it were not serious

if the words in question referred to men, I am quite sure he would see things differently

 

[Nehemiah6]

He says that he does not change the words to his liking, yet he supports an English translation (KJV) that changes the word Deacon into servant when addressing Phoebe (a woman) in an effort to strip Phoebe and other women of the title Deacon. That is not consistent with the original Greek language of the NT.

ChristianS do not base their beliefs merely on grammar or linguistics. The Bible is perfectly clear that only men can be deacons within a local church. Therefore it follows that Phoebe was neither a deacon nor a deaconess. But she was a servant of the church -- she served the church in whatever way she could and was commended for it. The word diakoneo can be translated as either servant/attendant or deacon (an office in the church as noted in 1 Tim 3:10,13).

STRONG'S CONCORDANCE
διακονέω diakonéō, dee-ak-on-eh'-o; from G1249; to be an attendant, i.e. wait upon (menially or as a host, friend, or (figuratively) teacher); technically, to act as a Christian deacon:—(ad-)minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

ChristianS do not base their beliefs merely on grammar or linguistics. The Bible is perfectly clear that only men can be deacons within a local church. Therefore it follows that Phoebe was neither a deacon nor a deaconess. But she was a servant of the church -- she served the church in whatever way she could and was commended for it. The word diakoneo can be translated as either servant/attendant or deacon (an office in the church as noted in 1 Tim 3:10,13).

STRONG'S CONCORDANCE
διακονέω diakonéō, dee-ak-on-eh'-o; from G1249; to be an attendant, i.e. wait upon (menially or as a host, friend, or (figuratively) teacher); technically, to act as a Christian deacon:—(ad-)minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

Diakoneo is the root of the word deacon which a deacon is a servant as Jesus himself said He came to serve. Which means she could of been teaching as well. The writer could have used any other word. He could of used mathētḗs a learner; a disciple, a follower of Christ who learns the doctrines of Scripture and the lifestyle they require. But he chose specifically deacon.

 

[Mem]

If the Hebrew or Greek doesn't fit the KJV then the original languages are wrong!

 

[John146]

who do you think you are talking to here? a bunch of dimwits?

you are changing what you said and I obviously have very little patience when people start doing that

you insist that the KJ is actually inspired...you know you do this and anyone who has seen your responses in KJ only threads has seen it also. no one said to stop saying the KJ is (basically) a good English translation so you are adding to what I and others have said...you are being creative with the truth, to put it politely

you go way past just 'English translation' however and you call all other English translations corrupt and you went so far in this particular thread, as to imply that certain wording in a different translation other than the KJ, leads to homosexual behavior

when people start twisting what others said and even twist what they said themselves in order to create a sly narrative, why should anyone take that person as being an honest steward of the word of God?

Plain logic.

Your Bible states Phoebe is a deacon. Your Bible states that deacons must be the husband of one wife. No further explanation needed.

 

[John146]

ChristianS do not base their beliefs merely on grammar or linguistics. The Bible is perfectly clear that only men can be deacons within a local church. Therefore it follows that Phoebe was neither a deacon nor a deaconess. But she was a servant of the church -- she served the church in whatever way she could and was commended for it. The word diakoneo can be translated as either servant/attendant or deacon (an office in the church as noted in 1 Tim 3:10,13).

STRONG'S CONCORDANCE
διακονέω diakonéō, dee-ak-on-eh'-o; from G1249; to be an attendant, i.e. wait upon (menially or as a host, friend, or (figuratively) teacher); technically, to act as a Christian deacon:—(ad-)minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon.

Plain truth right here. The description of a person vs the office of a position.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Plain logic.

Your Bible states Phoebe is a deacon. Your Bible states that deacons must be the husband of one wife. No further explanation needed.

By that same logic Paul also said it was better to remain single if possible, so I guess this would disqualify Paul from the role of deacon?