justpassinthrough said:
Unbelievers can’t grasp spiritual things.
So what does that prove?
That since everyone is born an unbeliever it is impossible to come to, have faith in, Christ in and of ourselves.
No, it's not "impossible" to believe or trust in Christ. Anymore than it's not impossible to trust in the chair that you decide to sit on or the bridge that you trust and drive over, which demonstrates your faith.
The Bible is clear about the fact that all men CAN believe. There are 2 verses that say that "men refused to believe". Acts 14:2, 19:9.
In Rev we have 3 mentions of refusal; in ch 3 about Jezebel, and ch 16, where men "refused to repet".
If you believe what words mean, to "refuse" shows a choice being made. iow, No one can "refuse" to do something that they CANNOT do.
That is absurd and insanity. The very act of refusal proves an ability.
Just try telling someone you refuse to do something that they KNOW you can't do anyway. See how they respond (react) to that.
Further, Rom 1:19-20 proves ability to believe.
19 For
what can be known about God is plain to them, because
God has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature,
have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
So they are without excuse.
Couldn't be any more clear.
People who lack ability CANNOT be held accountable for not doing what is asked/commanded/etc.
We must first be given the Holy Spirit and that can only happen by becoming born again.
The Bible says differently. The Holy Spirit is GIVEN on the basis of faith in Christ. That's what is "first".
Eph 1:13 - In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and
believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
iow, the Holy Spirit is received "when you believed".
Not only that verse, but these as well:
Gal 3-
2 Let me ask you only this:
Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law,
or by hearing with faith--
So, 3 verses that plainly teach that we receive the Holy Spirit on the basis of faith in Christ.
Your view has it backwards.
So true faith, should one have it, was solely as a gift outside of our control or effort.
No verse says this. Not even Eph 2:8.
This means since not everyone gets to have faith, that it is specifically given by God to certain people but not everyone. Those to whom God does not give it, can never have it.
Since Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared (been offered to) EVERYONE, your view is wrong.
Christ died for everyone so that "whosoever does believe, shall have eternal life.
It is available to everyone.
Consider this: IF your claims were true, then those God didn't choose would have a ready excuse: "but I wasn't chosen, like those other sinners who didn't deserve it either".
That's the dilemma that your view creates. Giving unbelievers an excuse for not being chosen.
Anyway, the biblical doctrine of election isn't even about salvation. That notion needs to be jettisoned.
Election is about service. Every verse that shows a purpose in election show service.
1 Cor 1:27,28
27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;
28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
I don't see salvation in either verse, but I DO SEE very clearly that election is to service in every example.
1 Pet 1-
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those
who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
Red words addess the "elect".
Blue words state the purpose of their election: which is service, or obedience.
Green words show that election isn't 'unconditional' but on the basis of God's foreknowledge. iow, God knows who will believe.
Now, show me any verse that teaches that God chooses who will believe, the real point of reformed "election".
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