Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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Oh no, my friend! We were established before you were established, look through history! What Paul taught on pre-trib. was the way the church seen it until the lie of Covenant Theology took over the church!
I will show you for my case what you can't show for your case.
Rev. 4:1-2
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
This is the picture of the rapture of the church! Then the tribulation begins at this point in time.
John is called into heaven to the Throne of God (the saved saints of the church from all of history to this point) and the things written in Rev. (the tribulation) begin to unfold.
I will show you for my case what you can't show for your case.
Rev. 4:1-2
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne."
This is the picture of the rapture of the church! Then the tribulation begins at this point in time.
John is called into heaven to the Throne of God (the saved saints of the church from all of history to this point) and the things written in Rev. (the tribulation) begin to unfold.
Charlie24 said:
Be glad to when you show us the verse that says the Church will go through the tribulation and be resurrected at the Second coming.
But, you know good and well that there is no need for such a verse, since the Bible clearly teaches that there is just ONE resurrection of the saved and that it will occur when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
Here are the verses again, since you haven't been reading my posts.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.
Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'
So, the burden of proof or refute is on you to show how each verse doesn't say what I believe it says.
I've done that will all your verses. And pointed out the hole in your theory; that there are no verses that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.
Here's the diff between us.
I have verses that actually say what I claim.
You have no verses that actually say what you claim.
Since you don't, you have to address my verses above and prove they don't say what I claim about them.
If the red and blue words of 2 Thess 2:1 aren't about the Second Advent and rapture, then prove it by explaining what those colors do refer to.
And how there ARE "waves" or "stages" or "series" of resurrections of saved people.
Be glad to when you show us the verse that says the Church will go through the tribulation and be resurrected at the Second coming.
But, you know good and well that there is no need for such a verse, since the Bible clearly teaches that there is just ONE resurrection of the saved and that it will occur when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
Here are the verses again, since you haven't been reading my posts.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.
Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'
So, the burden of proof or refute is on you to show how each verse doesn't say what I believe it says.
I've done that will all your verses. And pointed out the hole in your theory; that there are no verses that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.
Here's the diff between us.
I have verses that actually say what I claim.
You have no verses that actually say what you claim.
Since you don't, you have to address my verses above and prove they don't say what I claim about them.
If the red and blue words of 2 Thess 2:1 aren't about the Second Advent and rapture, then prove it by explaining what those colors do refer to.
And how there ARE "waves" or "stages" or "series" of resurrections of saved people.
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Well, I'm not surprised that you view the verses that I keep quoting as "spewing nonsense" since you have recently admitted that there are verses that you don't approve. Makes total sense.
Said the guy who has the silly mess.
Everyone knows this is a lie. Of course I have. Unlike yourself and the verses I keep sharing.
Said the guy who has the silly mess.
Everyone knows this is a lie. Of course I have. Unlike yourself and the verses I keep sharing.
Excuse me, friend. Why the need to "look through history" when by the 2nd Century, nearly all the "divines" got grace wrong and taught salvation by works. Furthermore, I don't need church history because I have the very words of Scripture.
It's your burden to prove the verses I've just shared with you don't say what I claim they mean.
Amazing that one would discount the very words of Scripture, as if they don't count, and default to looking through history for truth.
Interesting. Covenant theology is reformed theology, and I've heard that many of them believe the rapture is post trib.
Well, this "picture" is just your imagination. Where does the text mention the church or a rapture? It doesn't.
So you really think all this negates the verses I shared with you?
In fact, you just did what ALL pretribbers have been doing. Inserting their opinions into a verse/text that DOESN'T say what they claim.
When you are able to prove that the verses I've shared CANNOT mean what they say clearly, let me know.
It's your burden to prove the verses I've just shared with you don't say what I claim they mean.
Amazing that one would discount the very words of Scripture, as if they don't count, and default to looking through history for truth.
Interesting. Covenant theology is reformed theology, and I've heard that many of them believe the rapture is post trib.
Well, this "picture" is just your imagination. Where does the text mention the church or a rapture? It doesn't.
So you really think all this negates the verses I shared with you?
In fact, you just did what ALL pretribbers have been doing. Inserting their opinions into a verse/text that DOESN'T say what they claim.
When you are able to prove that the verses I've shared CANNOT mean what they say clearly, let me know.
Absolutely said:
Never in 40 years of my own study have they done that.
Again, here are the verses that totally refute a pretrib rapture.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.
Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'
To recap, there is:
1. ONE resurrection of the saved. All of them. From Adam on.
2. This ONE resurrection occurs after the Trib martyrs are resurrected, which proves the SINGULAR resurrection of "those who belong to Him" is when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
Burden is on you to refute this. Not just disagree.
Never in 40 years of my own study have they done that.
Again, here are the verses that totally refute a pretrib rapture.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.
Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'
To recap, there is:
1. ONE resurrection of the saved. All of them. From Adam on.
2. This ONE resurrection occurs after the Trib martyrs are resurrected, which proves the SINGULAR resurrection of "those who belong to Him" is when Jesus returns at the Second Advent.
Burden is on you to refute this. Not just disagree.
Furthermore--I don't know what angle you think I'm coming from--did you read Matthew 24 that I posted earlier. Clearly I am not a pre-tribber., mid-tribber or any other sort of tribber --God's Word says there's tribulation coming on the earth before Christ's return, then at His return the Judgment, then immediately following that, the wicked and unbelievers along with the destruction of our present heavens and earth-this is His WRATH.
That's the bad news--the good news God's dwelling place will now be with the believers in the New Heavens and New Earth--we will be with Him forever.
PS Furthermore, no one can stand before God and live--that is NO MORTAL Believers cannot ascend to heaven/be in God's presence without their glorified bodies. No one has ascended to heaven and no one ever will--Christ hands over the reign of the kingdom to the Father and He dwells with us in the new paradise."Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."--1st Corinithians 15:24
That's the bad news--the good news God's dwelling place will now be with the believers in the New Heavens and New Earth--we will be with Him forever.
PS Furthermore, no one can stand before God and live--that is NO MORTAL Believers cannot ascend to heaven/be in God's presence without their glorified bodies. No one has ascended to heaven and no one ever will--Christ hands over the reign of the kingdom to the Father and He dwells with us in the new paradise."Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power."--1st Corinithians 15:24
FreeGrace2 said:
Think for a sec. Where do you think the resurrected saints reside during the Millennium?
In fact, Rev 20 tells you.
Thank you for asking. All pretribbers focus solely on "the rapture".
However, what really needs to be focused on is the resurrection of all believers.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.
Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'
So, we see from Scripture that there is just ONE singular recurrection of all believers. And "the rapture" occurs WHEN the singular resurrection occurs.
Think for a sec. Where do you think the resurrected saints reside during the Millennium?
In fact, Rev 20 tells you.
Thank you for asking. All pretribbers focus solely on "the rapture".
However, what really needs to be focused on is the resurrection of all believers.
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
Count how many Jesus notes. I see "the resurrection". How do you get "waves" or "stages" or "series" from that?
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Count how many resurrections. Paul says "A resurrection". One for the saved and one for the unsaved.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The thrust of ch 15 is all about the resurrection of believers. We know that Christ's resurrection is described as "first fruits" because He was the FIRST ONE to receive His resurrection body.
Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
This eliminates trying to use the people Jesus and His disciples raised from the dead plus all the ones who came out of their graves when Jesus was crucified. Jesus was the first one.
Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
v.4 refers to believers who were martyred during the Tribulation. v.5 tells us plainly that they "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years". And to top that off, that resurrection is described as the FIRST one. Since there is only 2, this one is for "those who belong to Him" from 1 Cor 15:23.
Finally, the Bible clearly includes the gathering (rapture) with the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
Red = Second Advent
Blue = 'rapture'
So, we see from Scripture that there is just ONE singular recurrection of all believers. And "the rapture" occurs WHEN the singular resurrection occurs.
FreeGrace2--not to interrupt your dialogue, but I must say it is why the Roman Catholics burned Christians at the stake and destroyed Bibles--the very Word of God! They hated the truth and would prefer man's teaching over that of the Creator and Father.
The Roman Catholic Church states that the Pope's words are God and he stands in the place of Christ here on earth.
I see this repeatedly in these forums--people arguing from the doctrine of what they have been taught--just as cults and Roman Catholics do, as well as isolating verses and not looking at the whole of scripture. It's sad but true, "If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."
"Cardinal Sarto, who became Pope Pius X, said this: "The Pope represents Jesus Christ Himself..." Sadly, there are Christians who would disagree with this, yet put their pastors teachings above the word of God.
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."--1st John 1:41
The Roman Catholic Church states that the Pope's words are God and he stands in the place of Christ here on earth.
I see this repeatedly in these forums--people arguing from the doctrine of what they have been taught--just as cults and Roman Catholics do, as well as isolating verses and not looking at the whole of scripture. It's sad but true, "If you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth."
"Cardinal Sarto, who became Pope Pius X, said this: "The Pope represents Jesus Christ Himself..." Sadly, there are Christians who would disagree with this, yet put their pastors teachings above the word of God.
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."--1st John 1:41
Charlie, using LOL is disrespectful in the context of a bible forum discussion which I assume are nearly all adults. Furthermore, to say FreeGrace has not given proof is preposterous as they have quoted numerous verses--why don't you compare your response to theirs and see-- I'm really surprised at you. Truly.
Charlie, using LOL is disrespectful in the context of a bible forum discussion which I assume are nearly all adults. Furthermore, to say FreeGrace has not given proof is preposterous as they have quoted numerous verses--why don't you compare your response to theirs and see-- I'm really surprised at you. Truly.
Where has @FreeGrace2 shown me in scripture where the Church goes through the tribulation and then resurrected at the Second Coming? That's what we were discussing and it has not been shown!
