Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Absolutely]

There is no such thing as a "Gentile church of today". Balderdash. Even in the first Century, the church was made up of slaves, masters, Gentiles and Jews. All together. And the Bible SAYS there are "no Jews, no Gentiles". We are all one in Christ.

What groom in their right mind would choose to beat up their bride they claim to love. Jesus did not say He would cause His bride to be severely beaten and many killed — rather, He said he would go and make homes for her, and would then take us to where he would be.

"""Prove that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven."""

Interesting distraction.

A better question would be " why would we need the 10 virgin parable changed to; "the groom came and intercepted the virgins and took them back to their house""

Psssst...he took them into the marriage chamber.....heaven.

You know, the place where rev 19 says " the bride has become the wife"

 

[Absolutely]

Uh, huh. Where's the verse? How come you quote precious

Not too difficult to see that the ONLY resurrection of the saved is when Jesus Christ comes back at the Second Advent.

The Bible is NOT SILENT on a lot of facts. But the Bible is TOTALLY SILENT on the notion that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.

All rapture verses are peacetime and normal life as usual.

But i do realize that means nothing to the theory of the postrib raptureists

 

[Absolutely]

Uh, huh. Where's the verse? How come you quote precious few verses?


How come you don't seem to understand that God kept the Israelites from the 10 plagues of Egypt. Are you suggesting that God is unable to keep His people from His wrath on the world?


They were describing the Second Advent, obviously.


That's right. When He ends the Trib.

"""Why look for Jesus coming before the Trib when there is NO evidence for that. The Bible is SILENT on that."""
Lol

""""The best you have so far is just innuendo. Nothing more.""""

Pot <> Kettle
Big time

 

[FreeGrace2]

You have added the idea of Christ going back to heaven with people at the rapture. It's not in that verse. You are using Eisegesis to force a return to heaven there. When Jesus leaves heaven there is no verse that ever says he returns there.

In fact, there IS a verse that indicates WHEN He does leave heaven, He doesn't go back there again.

Acts 3:21. The Greek word for "receive" means "to contain, to retain". So, heaven contains Him "until the time of restoration of all things".

That is obviously a reference to His Millennial reign.

What this means is that raptured believers NEVER EVER see heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rev 14 prevents the one coming theory.

No, it doesn't. Your "data" is simply incorrect, so all your conclusions are incorrect.

Besides that mat 24 has Jesus coming BEFORE THE FLOOD.

Huh? Jesus came BACK to earth BEFORE He was born on earth???? Whatever are you talking about?

Before the flood we see noah GATHERED INTO THE ARK.

The ark didn't float to heaven either.

Pssssst.....ark is a type of heaven.

Prove your claim.

Then return from the sky (heaven)... AFTER THE FLOOD.

Oh, floated back down, is it?

This is beyond hilarious.

Postribs need that story and the virgin parable CHANGED

We don't need a thing. We HAVE the PROOF from the Bible. Unlike your side.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""Prove that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven."""

Interesting distraction.

You really are a crack-up. It's the main thing. You claim Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven yet you repeatedly FAIL to provide any evidence for that claim.

A better question would be " why would we need the 10 virgin parable changed to; "the groom came and intercepted the virgins and took them back to their house""

I don't use parables for doctrine. I use clear and unambiguous verses.

Psssst...he took them into the marriage chamber.....heaven.

No need, but thank you.

You know, the place where rev 19 says " the bride has become the wife"

The wording of v.7 and v.9 PROVE what is TO COME.

 

[FreeGrace2]

All rapture verses are peacetime and normal life as usual.

Why don't you actually quote some verses that support your claims?

But i do realize that means nothing to the theory of the postrib raptureists

You do not have a grasp of the truth. Becuase you don't have any verses that support your theory.

 

[lamad]

In fact, there IS a verse that indicates WHEN He does leave heaven, He doesn't go back there again.

Acts 3:21. The Greek word for "receive" means "to contain, to retain". So, heaven contains Him "until the time of restoration of all things".

That is obviously a reference to His Millennial reign.

What this means is that raptured believers NEVER EVER see heaven.

The "time of restoration" STARTS when the pretrib rapture changes the church at to the Day of the Lord.

We understand you want to stay behind and face the Beast. That is where you faith is.
Why you don't believe Luke and pray to be found worthy to escape—escapes me. It's just common sense to take God's escape plan.

Since you are not "looking" for Him—expecting Him when He comes pretrib for His saints—you will miss it and wonder why.
We can meet during the millennial reign and talk over which plan worked best. Agreed?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
In fact, there IS a verse that indicates WHEN He does leave heaven, He doesn't go back there again.

Acts 3:21. The Greek word for "receive" means "to contain, to retain". So, heaven contains Him "until the time of restoration of all things".

That is obviously a reference to His Millennial reign.

What this means is that raptured believers NEVER EVER see heaven.

The "time of restoration" STARTS when the pretrib rapture changes the church at to the Day of the Lord.

We understand you want to stay behind and face the Beast. That is where you faith is.

I want to understand what the Word of God teaches. And what I KNOW the Bible teaches is this:

1. there is ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE of the unsaved. Acts 24:15, Rev 20:5,6.
2. all believers from Adam on are resurrected at the same time. 1 Cor 15:23
3. The Second Advent and gathering (rapture) occur together. 2 Thess 2:1
4. The resurrection described in Rev20:5 is AFTER the Tribulation and is the FIRST resurrection.

These points are firmly established in the Bible. I believe them. You seem to reject all of them.

Yet, you haven't even tried to refute any of these points with Scripture that plainly and unambiguously says anything differently.

Why you don't believe Luke and pray to be found worthy to escape—escapes me. It's just common sense to take God's escape plan.

Actually, a whole lot of things have "escaped" you. Like clear and unambiguous verses that say what you claim.

Since you are not "looking" for Him—expecting Him when He comes pretrib for His saints

Because the Bible doesn't teach this.

—you will miss it and wonder why.

No, I don't wonder "why" about what I very clearly grasp. Unlike yourself.

We can meet during the millennial reign and talk over which plan worked best. Agreed?

If we do ever meet during the Millennium, I'm sure you will apologize all over yourself.

You believe what you can't prove. I HAVE proved what I believe. I am sure my "plan" will work.

 

[Absolutely]

You have added the idea of Christ going back to heaven with people at the rapture. It's not in that verse. You are using Eisegesis to force a return to heaven there. When Jesus leaves heaven there is no verse that ever says he returns there.

Now apply some sort of investigation of the rapture verses that are;
1) peacetime
2) some are at night
3) context is normal life
4) acts one is in direct conflict (like manner)
5) rev 14 gathering DURING THE TRIB
6) SUPPER IN HEAVEN as seen in rev 19, and last supper dialogue.
7) bride becomes wife IN HEAVEN rev 19
8) Jesus retrieves his bride and immediately goes to the wedding chamber....not into a slaughter of a destroyed planet. Mat 25 ;1
9) in the millions of sentences by anti pretribs....ask yourself why verses are NEEDING CHANGE....and why the bride/bridegroom component is TOTALLY MISSING IN THEIR doctrine??????

The biggest event known to man is about to happen.....and both post and pretribbers are silent!!!!

Not a word.
To top it off...the rapture is a "pinnacle..or apex" of the near future and only one or 2 of you are aware of it. ( "it" being that the rapture is actually the gathering of the bride FOR THE MARRIAGE AND SUPPER)

It seem to me to be an impossibility that bible students
(99% of you) are oblivious to the framing of end times( the gathering of the BRIDE to heaven)

The great., great deception.

Wow

 

[Absolutely]

FreeGrace2 said:
Where does it say they have been resurrected. That's just pure speculation and presumption.

let's not play these childish type games.

When an event didn't happen, the Bible is NOT required to make that statement. That's basically what you are implying; that the Bible MUST state what didn't happen.

The Bible DOES state what DOES happen.


Again, without any evidence from Scripture that they were raptured, it is YOU who speculated and presumes.


More speculation. Of course by the time the Trib rolls around, the VAST MAJORITY of the church will already be in heaven.

Only a mere fraction of living believers will be left when Jesus comes, since we've had over 2,000 years of believers who have already died and gone to heaven.


Unless there is at least ONE very clear verse about Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven, it is TOTAL SPECULATION to presume that He will do that. The burden of proof or evidence is on YOU, not me.

i've given you verses that support what I say, and you just wave them off with no exegesis or explanation of what the verses "really mean".


It's not going to be in heaven. That's just MORE speculation and wishful thinking. Which is why ALL your 'calculations' are WAY OFF.

"""When an event didn't happen, the Bible is NOT required to make that statement. That's basically what you are implying; that the Bible MUST state what didn't happen."""
The entirety of the NT is via revelation or illumination.
A mystery to those mentally unpacking verses.

Thus we see birthed ERROR.
Cessationists reframe verses into their own doctrines of mental understanding
Cults always mess with the testimony of Jesus.
99 % of pastors ignore the 5fold ministry.
Worship leaders do not know their JOB is to lead the congregation into the Holy of Holies.

Now to address the op
Postribbers have a erroneous starting place or a direction to lean.
That is where they START.

Not with both positions on the table...no sir...one position.
That is WHY your doctrine works in your circles.

And WHY there is excessive rabbit trails
" show me a verse stating the church is taken to heaven"

We show you THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN!!!!

WHAT IS GOING ON???????

I can tell you right now, all you are exposing in your self is "condemnation PRIOR TO investigation"

A perfect incubator for error.

YOU ARE GUARANTEED to be decieved.

 

[Absolutely]

How about right NOW proving that the gathering in Matt 24 is DIFFERENT than the gathering in 2 Thess 2:1.

If you can do that, you may have a point.


You have been misreading a lot. 2 Thess 2:1-3 is far clearer than Matt 24, but both say the same thing. And both occur AFTER the Trib.


This is obviously false. 2 Thess 2:1-3 is the goto verse that proves the resurrection is posttrib.


I did. But apparently you didn't understand anything about what Jesus said.

Here are the facts: Jesus hadn't died yet, so His mention of going to heaven refers to His ascension after His resurrection. And He DID prepare rooms for His disciples, all of which are NOW enjoying their rooms in heaven. So v.2 has already been fulfilled.

Regarding v.3, you are wildly inserting your own opinions, presumptions etc into it. His promise in that verse is about coming back and receiving them to Himself. It says NOTHING about going to get them and take them back to heaven.

Go ahead and read v.3 slow enough to see what Jesus did say. And leave out your opinions.

His 11 disciples are already IN heaven and enjoying their rooms that Jesus prepared.

v.3 is future and refers to when Jesus comes back to earth. In fact, v.3 is parallel to 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

And this passage says NOTHING about being taken back to heaven.

Again, you have no point.


I need to ask you: in your pretrib view, just WHERE are His disciples living NOW in heaven? Your timing is so off, no wonder you don't understand John 14:1-4.


Of course, Jesus WILL BE IN HEAVEN "until the time of the restoration of all things", as Acts 3:21 says.

English Standard Version
whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
New International Version
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Berean Study Bible
Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.
New American Standard Bible
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
King James Bible
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
International Standard Version
He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

Note that the Greek word for "receive" means "to contain, retain", which means Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the restoration.

Do you really want to argue that the Trib is somehow viewed by the Bible as a restoration?

"""How about right NOW proving that the gathering in Matt 24 is DIFFERENT than the gathering in 2 Thess 2:1."""

Mat 24 has 2 completely different appearances of Jesus
One appearance after the tribulation and then later on Jesus shifts gears and we see another appearance Before the Flood, and we see one taken one left behind framed in the statement watch and be ready that is for the coming of the Lord all framed Before the Flood. That would be before the tribulation starts. We see two very distinct appearances by Jesus but of course that needs to be omitted

 

[Absolutely]

There is no such thing as a "Gentile church of today". Balderdash. Even in the first Century, the church was made up of slaves, masters, Gentiles and Jews. All together. And the Bible SAYS there are "no Jews, no Gentiles". We are all one in Christ.

What groom in their right mind would choose to beat up their bride they claim to love. Jesus did not say He would cause His bride to be severely beaten and many killed — rather, He said he would go and make homes for her, and would then take us to where he would be.

"""There is no such thing as a "Gentile church of today". Balderdash. Even in the first Century, the church was made up of slaves, masters, Gentiles and Jews. All together. And the Bible SAYS there are "no Jews, no Gentiles". We are all one in Christ."""

Altho there is some truth to that, romans describes his Covenant Jewish people as being grafted back in. It even goes on to say of them you are grafted in and they are cut off. Then it goes on to say that if they were cut off how much more could you be cut off. The book of Ruth vividly depicts the Gentile bride. With Naomi the Jew alongside. Naomi was already family, but had to be Redeemed by Boaz himself , Ruth came in through Covenant. Revelation 14 is vividly depicting God dealing directly with the Covenant Jews that is during the tribulation

 

[AworkINprogress]

The carnal or natural thinking way of man is at enmity with God, it’s not subject unto the law of God, neither can be. It means that the natural mind is subject to this earth and can’t see into the spiritual things.

If we want to understand bible prophecy, we must first leave this natural thinking man behind, and embrace the Spirit. Many of us who think we have it all together, are probably deluding ourselves.

Remember, everything after the cross requires ears to hear to generate faith, and not like the old covenant that required eyes to believe. Faith was limited to a certain few people to whom God granted access to, but now faith has been dealt to every man a measure.

This may shock some of you, but the book of Revelation is an Old Testament book. The angel said to Daniel, “Seal up the book Daniel until the time of the end”.

I’ve coined the phrase, “What Daniel sealed, John revealed.”

It’s an Old Testament book because of a few things. First, it was part of what the Angel was going to share with Daniel, but it was stopped up, signifying that such information had to remain a secret until “the time of the end”. Secondly, it contained Old Testament imagery that must be interpreted from Old Testament information and NOT from daily news reels. And thirdly, ”I was in the Spirit on the LORD’s day”.

John was in the Spirit. Any person who has ever been in the Spirit and has received instructions from God while in the Spirit, knows full well that everything that they have seen is symbolic and never to be taken literally using the world as it’s template.

The error is using the world as our template to interpret everything.

If any man hath ears to hear, let him hear these words from the book of Daniel. If you are a true berean of the word, you will stop and consider these words carefully and ponder on them until you allow the Holy Ghost to penetrate the darkness of false teachings.

Here it is, get ready to mediate on it.

“Seventy weeks are determined upon THY PEOPLE and upon THY HOLY CITY, to FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION, and to MAKE AN END OF SINS, and to MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY, and to BRING IN AN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS, and to SEAL UP THE VISION AND PROPHECY, and to ANOINT THE MOST HOLY.”

The “seventy weeks“ start with the commandment by Cyrus King of Persia to have the temple rebuilt.

The word “Determined” means that it’s been decreed to cut off the Jews and Jerusalem as being the centre of the world and it’s influence. When Jesus arrived on the scene, the Jews were in every province of Rome and they had great influence on it’s leaders. They were in a sense the light of the world at that time. They did not realize that their “lightship” was coming to an end.

Now to the fulfillments: Remember, this is an exhaustive subject because of false teachings that have crept in in the last 200 years. Paul had a hard time in his day and the letters he wrote was meant to steer people away from their natural thinking and adhere to the Spirit. Many times he kept saying, “walk in the spirit’. It’s so easy to incline to what we see. God have mercy on us all.

“Finish the transgression” Matthew 23:32 “fill ye up the measure of your fathers” [by killing Me] emphasis mine.

“Make an end of sins” John 1:29 “Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world”. [at the cross] emphasis mine

”Make Reconciliation for iniquity” Hebrews 2:17 the exact wording is plain

”Bring in an everlasting righteousness”. Romans 10:17 “so faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God”.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, the just shall live by faith”.

”Seal up the vision and prophecy”. John 19:30 “It is finished”

”To anoint the most holy” Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the good news to the poor [poor in spirit] emphasis mine.

 

[peldom10]

You have added the idea of Christ going back to heaven with people at the rapture. It's not in that verse. You are using Eisegesis to force a return to heaven there. When Jesus leaves heaven there is no verse that ever says he returns there.

Interesting point....where do you think He goes? He doesn't stay on the earth.
Doesn't He have to go back to His Heaven for the marriage supper?

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""When an event didn't happen, the Bible is NOT required to make that statement. That's basically what you are implying; that the Bible MUST state what didn't happen."""
The entirety of the NT is via revelation or illumination.

Please don't kid yourself. The Bible is very clear on many many points.

Thus we see birthed ERROR.

I sure see a lot of that.

Now to address the op
Postribbers have a erroneous starting place or a direction to lean.
That is where they START.

Actually, that would be the pretribbers, with their huge speculation that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven, without ANY verse showing that. All you have is your speculation and parables that DON'T TEACH DOCTRINE.

And WHY there is excessive rabbit trails
" show me a verse stating the church is taken to heaven"

Go ahead and explain how this is a rabbit trail. The ENTIRE emphasis from pretribbers is their supposed journey to heaven after receiving their resurrection body. That's the real rabbit trail, since the Bible is totally SILENT on your fantasy trip to heaven.

We show you THE CHURCH IN HEAVEN!!!!

No one argues that. Of course MOST of the NT believers will be in heaven by the time the Trib rolls around. In fact, ONLY a FRACTION of NT believers will be alive when they gathered and given their resurrection bodies.

WHAT IS GOING ON???????

You've been told over and over again.

And what I KNOW the Bible teaches is this:

1. there is ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE of the unsaved. Acts 24:15, Rev 20:5,6.
2. all believers from Adam on are resurrected at the same time. 1 Cor 15:23
3. The Second Advent and gathering (rapture) occur together. 2 Thess 2:1
4. The resurrection described in Rev20:5 is AFTER the Tribulation and is the FIRST resurrection.

YOU ARE GUARANTEED to be decieved.

You have been deceived. Guaranteed!

Proof is in the pudding. You don't have any proof OR pudding.

 

[peldom10]

Please don't kid yourself. The Bible is very clear on many many points.


I sure see a lot of that.


Actually, that would be the pretribbers, with their huge speculation that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven, without ANY verse showing that. All you have is your speculation and parables that DON'T TEACH DOCTRINE.


Go ahead and explain how this is a rabbit trail. The ENTIRE emphasis from pretribbers is their supposed journey to heaven after receiving their resurrection body. That's the real rabbit trail, since the Bible is totally SILENT on your fantasy trip to heaven.


No one argues that. Of course MOST of the NT believers will be in heaven by the time the Trib rolls around. In fact, ONLY a FRACTION of NT believers will be alive when they gathered and given their resurrection bodies.


You've been told over and over again.

And what I KNOW the Bible teaches is this:

1. there is ONE resurrection of the saved and ONE of the unsaved. Acts 24:15, Rev 20:5,6.
2. all believers from Adam on are resurrected at the same time. 1 Cor 15:23
3. The Second Advent and gathering (rapture) occur together. 2 Thess 2:1
4. The resurrection described in Rev20:5 is AFTER the Tribulation and is the FIRST resurrection.


You have been deceived. Guaranteed!

Proof is in the pudding. You don't have any proof OR pudding.

Where does He take them?

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""How about right NOW proving that the gathering in Matt 24 is DIFFERENT than the gathering in 2 Thess 2:1."""

Mat 24 has 2 completely different appearances of Jesus

Since is no context for 2 Thess 2:1, except the clear mention of the Second Advent, you don't have a point.

One appearance after the tribulation and then later on Jesus shifts gears and we see another appearance Before the Flood,

Why do you keep bringing up the flood, and placing an Advent by Jesus before it??? That flood already occurred.

and we see one taken one left behind framed in the statement watch and be ready that is for the coming of the Lord all framed Before the Flood.

Nonsense. The flood occurred over 5,000 years ago. I thought everyone knew that.

If the "rapture" is before the flood, guess what. You totally missed it. That means you were LEFT BEHIND.

That would be before the tribulation starts.

The flood was about 5,000 years ago. Way before the tribulation starts.

We see two very distinct appearances by Jesus but of course that needs to be omitted

Why you think the flood is relevant and speak as if Jesus actually comes to rapture people BEFORE the flood is a real mystery.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""There is no such thing as a "Gentile church of today". Balderdash. Even in the first Century, the church was made up of slaves, masters, Gentiles and Jews. All together. And the Bible SAYS there are "no Jews, no Gentiles". We are all one in Christ."""

Altho there is some truth to that, romans describes his Covenant Jewish people as being grafted back in.

But NOT as a separate entity, as you are insinuating. Everything I posted above is ALL truth, not "some truth".

It even goes on to say of them you are grafted in and they are cut off. Then it goes on to say that if they were cut off how much more could you be cut off. The book of Ruth vividly depicts the Gentile bride. With Naomi the Jew alongside. Naomi was already family, but had to be Redeemed by Boaz himself , Ruth came in through Covenant. Revelation 14 is vividly depicting God dealing directly with the Covenant Jews that is during the tribulation

All irrelevant to the resurrection and gathring.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does He take them?

When Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent, ALL believers will receive their resurrection body. The Bible teaches that there is ONE resurrection of the saved: Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15 and 1 Cor 15:23.

So, those living on the earth when He returns simply come back down and participate in the Millennial Kingdom, of course.

This means that those who "are alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven. Ever.