Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

lamad · Dec 1, 2021

Where does it say they have NOT been resurrected? That's just pure speculation and presumption to assume they have not. We already noticed that John SAW the raptured church in heaven several chapters before. Therefore it is not as much speculation as asssuming they are NOT resurrected.

Anyway, the resurrection will take place "on the last day" and that last day is the same day the 7th vial is poured out to end the week. So your timing is STILL off.

How are you going to get to heaven to attend the marriage and supper?

lamad · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Is this the "ostrich syndrome:" ignore scriptures that don't fit?
All through Revelation we find the timing of events by their verse of mention: it is the way John wrote.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

By the time verse 9 comes—the marriage supper—the marriage ceremony is finished.

I have asked poststribbers time and again how they are going to get to the marriage and supper. One said it would be held in the air as Jesus descends and calls the dead up! Many imagine it to be on earth after touchdown.

Why not, instead of changing scripture to fit, CHANGE YOUR THINKING to fit Revelation as written?

lamad · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

It is OK. You can stay behind and leave your mansion emply until...until...who knows WHEN you will ever see your mansion: perhaps after the 1000 years. I am convinced people will get exactly what they are believing for when Jesus comes pretrib FOR His church. He will appear ONLY to those who are LOOKING for Him - EXPECTING Him.

I cannot begin to imagine how those who are expecting to see the Beast first can at the same time be looking for Jesus coming pretrib - when He REALLY will come next. It could be TONIGHT! Are you expecting Him that soon?

CS1 · Dec 1, 2021

HatedForNoReason said:

Left Behind Secret Rapture is a lie made up by Satan.

Remember, Left Behind Secret Rapture and rapture are two different things.

The bottom link talks about the rapture and what is rapture.

http://testallthings.com/2010/05/31/when-is-the-rapture/

The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, John 17:15

We don't know the exact day, time and hour of the Real Jesus Christ 2nd Coming, but we do know the signs.

Before the Real Jesus Christ comes back: Great earthquake that shakes Earth and Heaven, sun shall be turned into darkness, moon into blood, stars shall withdraw their shining, heaven rolled like a scroll, every mountain and island moved out of their places, great hail out of heaven pelting on some of Satan's children on earth.

Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 38:19-23, Joel 2:10-11, Joel 2:30-32, Haggai 2:6, 21, Matthew 24:29-34, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:24-29, Mark 13:31, Acts 2:19-20, Luke 21:25-33 and Hebrews 12:26-28, Revelation 6:12-17, Compare Daniel 7:13-14, 27, Ezekiel 13:13, Revelation 11:15-19, Revelation 16:17-21

http://repent5610.blogspot.com/2012/12/there-is-no-secret-rapture.html

If you are interested in freedom from sin and how do we receive the Holy Spirit? read below.
After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.

1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it’s only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or any sinful desires. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires (Romans 6:6-7 and Galatians 5:24), Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it’s God’s will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit.

Then it’s by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don’t have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually and for more information about this sermon, go to spreadthegospel59.wordpress.com then go to
The short version of “To be free from sin (sin deceives and hurts everyone) and how do we receive the Holy Spirit?”

Why does God hate sin? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that “you were bought with a price” (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23)? | GotQuestions.org
Sin Will Never Make You Happy
(What does the Bible say about hypocrisy? | GotQuestions.org)
Gives thanks to God, that you are free from sin (sin deceives=never satisfied no matter how many times you do it,
gives pain, makes you guilty, go from bad to worse)
if you are one of God’s elect, to fight off self-pity is to give thanks to God for everything. What does the Bible say about self-pity? | GotQuestions.org
Is eternal security a “license” to sin? | GotQuestions.org

The reason why am hated for no reason since I were physically born and never fit in is because am one of God’s elects. (John 15:18-19)

Just so you know Jesus had to carry all of God’s elects sins and endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hellfire spiritually, which is extreme love and mercy.
Go to the bottom website, for better explanation.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/jesus-eternal-punishment-hours/

the Blessed hope doesn't cause fear it causes HOPE. Jesus is coming soon. Your use of scriptures is out of context just so you know and I think it is funny how you say We don't know the day or the hour of the return of Jesu BUT it is immediately after the Tribulation. LOL

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Where does it say they have been resurrected. That's just pure speculation and presumption.

lamad said:

let's not play these childish type games.

When an event didn't happen, the Bible is NOT required to make that statement. That's basically what you are implying; that the Bible MUST state what didn't happen.

The Bible DOES state what DOES happen.

Again, without any evidence from Scripture that they were raptured, it is YOU who speculated and presumes.

More speculation. Of course by the time the Trib rolls around, the VAST MAJORITY of the church will already be in heaven.

Only a mere fraction of living believers will be left when Jesus comes, since we've had over 2,000 years of believers who have already died and gone to heaven.

Unless there is at least ONE very clear verse about Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven, it is TOTAL SPECULATION to presume that He will do that. The burden of proof or evidence is on YOU, not me.

i've given you verses that support what I say, and you just wave them off with no exegesis or explanation of what the verses "really mean".

It's not going to be in heaven. That's just MORE speculation and wishful thinking. Which is why ALL your 'calculations' are WAY OFF.

lamad · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

No problem: what posttribbers have never proven is that the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture. It seems everything else posttribbers use is based off the Matthew 24 gathering. That is their one goto scripture. It seems posttribbers arguments are based off this false premise. (Anyone can play word games.)

I suspect this is the way you read John 14:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air above the earth and call you up], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

Sorry, but Jesus is not on earth during the days of His wrath. His purpose is the take the church out for this wrath. Did you not read?

Isaiah 26:20
Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rev. 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

In light of all these verses, I would guess the intent of the Author is more like this:

2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven]. 3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air above the earth and call you up], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going: BACK TO HEAVEN to show you the homes I have prepared, that], there [in heaven where the homes are] ye may be also.

It makes good sense in context of the Homes he went to prapare that His intent is to take us to the homes - EXACTLY what a groom would do in the days Jesus lived: get engaged, go built a home for he and wife, then go and get her and take her to the home he has prepared.

Where "am" Jesus all during Revelation chapters 8, the start of the week, 9 the trumpet judgments, 10-11, the midpoint and earth given back to Jesus, 12, the fleeing begins and Satan kicked down, 13, the rise of the Beast, 14, God's warnings to earth, 15, the beheaded begin to appear in heaven, and finally 16, the vials and the end of the week. But let's not forget chapters 17-19, the destruction of Babylon, and the marriage and supper. All during these events Jesus "am" in heaven. ("That WHERE I AM you may be also.")

lamad · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

So just as I expected, you are going to rearrange Revelation to fit your theory. John is very clear that the marriage and supper will take place in heaven before He gets onto the white horse. You have to rearrange what John wrote.

My axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit some imaginary hypotheses, is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
No evidence that the wedding supper has occurred in heaven. Just more of your favored speculations.

lamad said:

I gave you a very clear exegesis of Rev 19 which shows what is ABOUT to occur, not what HAS ALREADY occurred.

You probably didn't even read any of it.

In v.7 the words "marriage is come" and "wife has made herself ready" are words of what is about to occur.

Read the verse, slowly. The word "called" in the Greek means "invited". They are invited. If the wedding has already occurred, the wording would be different, such as "WERE invited".

Nothing to imagine. Because right AFTER getting ready for the supper, they all come to earth with Jesus. So that's where the supper will occur: IN Jesus' Millennial Kingdom.

That way, NO ONE who "belongs to Jesus" will miss out on the supper.

According to your presumption, NONE of the Trib martyrs will be able to go to it. Are you actually comfortable with that?

Why not, instead of changing scripture to fit, CHANGE YOUR THINKING to fit Revelation as written?[/QUOTE]

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

lamad said:

Those who know their Bible clearly understand that since the resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which will include the living believers still on earth, NO raptured believer will EVER see heaven.

What makes you think there will be an opportunity "after the 1,000 years".

So those believers who take the Bible at face value will miss it? Are you kidding??

Why look for Jesus coming before the Trib when there is NO evidence for that. The Bible is SILENT on that.

Of course not. 2 Thess 2:1-3 says His coming and gathering won't occur UNTIL the beast is revealed.

But, of course, you don't believe what Paul wrote, apparently.

Well, I do.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

lamad said:

How about right NOW proving that the gathering in Matt 24 is DIFFERENT than the gathering in 2 Thess 2:1.

If you can do that, you may have a point.

You have been misreading a lot. 2 Thess 2:1-3 is far clearer than Matt 24, but both say the same thing. And both occur AFTER the Trib.

This is obviously false. 2 Thess 2:1-3 is the goto verse that proves the resurrection is posttrib.

I did. But apparently you didn't understand anything about what Jesus said.

Here are the facts: Jesus hadn't died yet, so His mention of going to heaven refers to His ascension after His resurrection. And He DID prepare rooms for His disciples, all of which are NOW enjoying their rooms in heaven. So v.2 has already been fulfilled.

Regarding v.3, you are wildly inserting your own opinions, presumptions etc into it. His promise in that verse is about coming back and receiving them to Himself. It says NOTHING about going to get them and take them back to heaven.

Go ahead and read v.3 slow enough to see what Jesus did say. And leave out your opinions.

His 11 disciples are already IN heaven and enjoying their rooms that Jesus prepared.

v.3 is future and refers to when Jesus comes back to earth. In fact, v.3 is parallel to 1 Thess 4:17 - After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

And this passage says NOTHING about being taken back to heaven.

Again, you have no point.

I need to ask you: in your pretrib view, just WHERE are His disciples living NOW in heaven? Your timing is so off, no wonder you don't understand John 14:1-4.

Of course, Jesus WILL BE IN HEAVEN "until the time of the restoration of all things", as Acts 3:21 says.

English Standard Version
whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
New International Version
Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Berean Study Bible
Heaven must take Him in until the time comes for the restoration of all things, which God announced long ago through His holy prophets.
New American Standard Bible
whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
King James Bible
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
International Standard Version
He must remain in heaven until the time of universal restitution, which God announced long ago through the voice of his holy prophets.

Note that the Greek word for "receive" means "to contain, retain", which means Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the restoration.

Do you really want to argue that the Trib is somehow viewed by the Bible as a restoration?

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

lamad said:

Please proceed with your proof or evidence that I've "re-arranged" anything in Revelation. I don't believe your reckless claims.

No, the very wording suggests what is about to take place, not what has already taken place.

Didn't you figure that IF the supper IS occurring in ch 19, then that is RIGHT BEFORE the Second Advent. So you have all these supposedly resurrected and raptured believers waiting 7 years in heaven before the supper, after which they join Jesus in His Second Advent. Nope. Doesn't fit reality.

If you want to speak about "some imaginary hypotheses", you only have to look in a mirror. Your theories are full of them.

The verses I share all SAY clearly what I believe.

You haven't done that. Ever.

Absolutely · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

"""Please remind me. I just can't remember ANYONE who has shared verses that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven."""

Rev 19
How do you you omit the bride has become the wife.?
Or the elect on horses?

Jesus said at the last supper he would not drink of the covenant cup untill he did so with them IN HEAVEN.
REV 14 Jesus gathers the Jews.
The last group seated at the supper in heaven.

Why do they need bodies in heaven?

The marriage supper.

The dead in christ retrieve their bodies FOR THE MARRIAGE SUPPER.
" I will not drink of the fruit of the Vine until I drink it a new with you in heaven".
They could not participate in that until they had or have their glorified bodies

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

Absolutely said:

There is NOTHING, as in NOTHING BURGER, is Rev 19 that describes a trip to heaven led by Jesus of resurrected saints.

What you are doing, again, is ASSUMING, PRESUMING, an SPECULATING on how the bride in heaven got there.

Well, I'll break it to you. They all DIED, physically. Yep. Kicked the bucket, bought the farm, slipped on a banana peel.

Is this just more speculation, or are you guessing what Jesus said. Please provide verses that support your claim.

Does any verse in ch 14 SAY that Jesus gathers Jews? No.

Please share any verse that describes any kind of seating order by time.

Beats me. But go ahead and prove (no speculation or speculation or guessing) that they already have resurrection bodies.

OK. What about it?

If there is a verse that says so, ok. But again, since the ONLY resurrection of believers is after the Trib, when ALL believers receive their resurrection bodies, of course they will have them.

And, to clarify, it's "those who belong to Him" that are in that SINGLE resurrection of the saved.

" I will not drink of the fruit of the Vine until I drink it a new with you in heaven".[/QUOTE]
Since you have made so many empty claims, I need to see an actual verse that says what you keep claiming.

Why is that?

Absolutely · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

"""Why look for Jesus coming before the Trib when there is NO evidence for that. The Bible is SILENT on that."""

Jesus said "pray that you may be counted worthy to escape the things that are about to come upon the Earth and stand before the son of God."
Jesus also said "because you have kept the word of my testimony I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is about to come up on the whole Earth"
ACTS 1
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Matthew 24:44

"""Why look for Jesus coming before the Trib when there is NO evidence for that. The Bible is SILENT on that."""

Lol

soberxp · Dec 1, 2021

Don't argue for the sake of argument. It doesn't represent knowledge.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

Absolutely said:

Uh, huh. Where's the verse? How come you quote precious few verses?

How come you don't seem to understand that God kept the Israelites from the 10 plagues of Egypt. Are you suggesting that God is unable to keep His people from His wrath on the world?

They were describing the Second Advent, obviously.

That's right. When He ends the Trib.

"""Why look for Jesus coming before the Trib when there is NO evidence for that. The Bible is SILENT on that."""
Lol[/QUOTE]
Why don't you include some context in your remarks?

You know very well the Bible is SILENT on Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

Or prove me wrong with a very clear verse that says what you keep claiming.

The best you have so far is just innuendo. Nothing more.

The Bible SAYS there is ONE resurrection of the saved. Luke 14;14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23

The Bible SAYS there are just TWO resurrections; one for the saved (see above) and one for the unsaved. Acts 24:15.

The Bible SAYS the FIRST resurrection involves martyrs from the Tribulation.

The Bible SAYS that Jesus remains in heaven until the time of restoration. Acts 3:21. The Greek word for receives means "to contain, retain". That means He STAYS in heaven until the restoration. And please don't try to tell me the Tribulation will be a time of "restoration". That will occur AFTER the Trib when Jesus sets up His Millennial kingdom and rules the earth.

Not too difficult to see that the ONLY resurrection of the saved is when Jesus Christ comes back at the Second Advent.

The Bible is NOT SILENT on a lot of facts. But the Bible is TOTALLY SILENT on the notion that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

lamad said:

There is no such thing as a "Gentile church of today". Balderdash. Even in the first Century, the church was made up of slaves, masters, Gentiles and Jews. All together. And the Bible SAYS there are "no Jews, no Gentiles". We are all one in Christ.

What groom in their right mind would choose to beat up their bride they claim to love. Jesus did not say He would cause His bride to be severely beaten and many killed — rather, He said he would go and make homes for her, and would then take us to where he would be. [/QUOTE]
I explained all about John 14:1-4. Give it a rest.

No, only most of the "church". There will be believers on earth during the Trib.

Prove that Jesus takes raptured believers to heaven.

No, that would be EVERYONE from Adam on who is saved. Since you don't believe 1 Cor 15:23, that "those who belong to Him" includes everyone from Adam on who believed in the Messiah, consider these verses:

Acts 15:16-18
16 “ ‘After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, even all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ —
18 things known from long ago.

Rom 10-
18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”
20 And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”

Acts 15:17 specifically says "the Gentiles who BEAR MY NAME", so don't tell me "those who belong to Him" can't be believers from the OT.

Mem · Dec 1, 2021

If in resurrection the perishable put on the imperishable, then how can the incorruptible suffer sores, boils, scorching fire, pain, or death, which is an epitome of the perishable, which is is poured out on the world. To suggest they must be 'taken out of the way' to avoid perishing when it reads they they put on imperishable seems to me to only reveal an underlying disbelief of a key and significant reality of the resurrection of 'those who are His.'

And then, before He is finished with death for His purposes, to destroy all dominion and authority and power, and does away with it...

1Cor15:24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

ewq1938 · Dec 1, 2021

lamad said:

You have added the idea of Christ going back to heaven with people at the rapture. It's not in that verse. You are using Eisegesis to force a return to heaven there. When Jesus leaves heaven there is no verse that ever says he returns there.

Absolutely · Dec 1, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Rev 14 prevents the one coming theory.

So with that truth we can go ahead and agree those raptured go to heaven as Jesus declared at the last supper, and the parable of the virgins VIVIDLY illustrates.

Besides that mat 24 has Jesus coming BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Before the flood we see noah GATHERED INTO THE ARK.
Pssssst.....ark is a type of heaven.

Then return from the sky (heaven)... AFTER THE FLOOD.

Postribs need that story and the virgin parable CHANGED

Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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