Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

lamad · Nov 30, 2021

Yes, I place the rapture according to Paul just before the 6th seal start of the wrath of God. So the rapture in Rev. 6. The crowd in Rev. 7. It fits.

It is not written that they have dirty robes. They washed Their robes symbolically when they were born again:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

This is only chapter 7. The Day of the Lord has just officially been started, but no events yet have happened. At the time of chapter 7, those left behind are still wondering what happened. IF the rapture happens on the feast of trumpets, then the time between the 6th and 7th seals will probably be the ten days of Awe. Sorry, but martyrs will not be an uncountable number such as the rapture - 50 or so generations of believers. Just the number alone makes your theory impossible.

Where in Revelation do the beheaded saints start showing up in heaven? Not until chapter 15. Sorry, friend, but your theory does not work.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 30, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Please prove this claim. From clear Scripture.

lamad said:

I have been challenging that other poster for a long time to prove his claim that the "church is raptured before the innumerable number", whatever he meant by that.

Could you at least provide some context for your comments. How did WHO get to heaven?

Where is the "hint" that Jesus took ANY resurrected/raptured people to heaven? Ah, but you don't have any such verse.

I have no idea what you are talking about since you never include verses to support your claims.

As I pointed out previously, ALL emphasis should be on resurrection, not "rapture". The number of believers just before the Trib is only a very small fraction of ALL believers in the last 2,000 years. So talking about "groups" is meaningless.

The number of believers since Christ's death and resurrection until now is HUGELY more than the number of living believers just before the Trib begins.

OK, if you think "something" IS duck, how come you NEVER quote any verse to support what "looks, quacks and walks like a duck"?

lamad · Nov 30, 2021

ewq1938 said:

There is a coming shown in 1 Thes. 4. It is not numbered. There is a coming shown in Matthew 24. It is not numbered. There is a coming mentioned in Matthew 17. It is not numbered their either. There is a coming in Matthew 26, and it is not numbered. There are 8 more mentions of His coming in the Pauline Epistles and none of them have an associated number. His coming as shown in Rev. 19 does not have a number associated with it. In fact, in all the verses mentioned a coming of Our Lord, ONLY ONE mentions a number, and that number the "the second time." It used the word appear rather than a coming. If He comes pretrib FOR His bride, and again after 7 plus years WITH His bride, that last adds up to three comings. Are we allowed to count?

ewq1938 said:

Since God is eternal so instead of saying I was, and I will be, His answer is, I AM. So we can fill in the time where HE AM.
All during the 70th week HE AM in heaven. This is proven by the very fact that He is in heaven when He gets on the white horse to descend. Since He tells us He went to prayer homes for us, it just makes good sense that when He comes for us, He will take us to the homes. If you wish to remain behind, I think God will honor your faith and give you what you are believing for.

ewq1938 said:

No, He is in the air AGAIN at Armageddon, and His direction is to the ground. In his first coming His direct was only to the air. When He leaves heaven in Revelation, there is not stopping in the air - He is headed for WAR.

ewq1938 said:

Sorry, but He leaves heave with His armies.

ewq1938 said:

I KNOW that the 6th seal is the start of God's wrath. This is written as the day of HIS wrath. Now you have tied yourself in a knot. My friend, the 6th seal is in chapter 6, NOT IN chapter 19. You are 15 chapters off in your theory. The truth is, God starts the Day of His wrath before the 70th week, putting the Week inside the DAY, so every event of the 70th week will come with wrath. This is proven because John tells us the vials are FILLED with His wrath.

I cannot find a verse anywhere where He, God, is over His wrath. I suspect when Jesus comes to Armageddon, He will be angry at the armies against Him, but it is not written.

Jesus comes for the pretrib rapture JUST BEFORE the start of Wrath and around 3.5 years before the days of GT. Why do you insist on rearranging Revelation to fit your theory? It would be FAR WISER to redo your theory to fit Revelation as written.

It is in perfect order:
5th seal martyrs of the church age.
Rapture
6th seal start of the Day of the Lord
7th seal start of the 70th week.
First 6 trumpets
Two witnesses show up
7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week.
12:6 those in Judea begin to flee
Chapter 13 the Beast shows up
The False Prophet shows up and begins to plot against the believers
The image is created
The mark is created
The city is being trampled, the two witnesses are testifying, those that fled continue to flee and the 42 months of authority is ...counting down.
God sends angels to warn people NOT to take the mark.
Days of GT begin after God's warning: people who refuse to bow and/or refuse the mark are beheaded.
When the beheading reaches a peak, God is fed up and releases the angels with the vials to SHORTEN the days of GT.
Finally the Two Witnesses' 1260 days ENDS and they are killed
Two Witnesses lay dead for 3 1/2 days
THE END OF THE WEEK comes with the 7th vial. Jesus remains in heaven.
Suddenly the two witnesses RISE Up but at the same time, ALL the OT saints rise. It is "the last day."
The Mystery Babylon city of Jerusalem will be destroyed
Revelation 19 shows heaven is full: both the OT and NT saints are all there with resurrection bodies.
The marriage and supper take place
Jesus, and all the saints get on white horses to descend to Armageddon.

It all makes perfect sense in John's God given chronology. Any theory that must rearrange will be proven wrong.

ewq1938 · Nov 30, 2021

lamad said:

You got most of that wrong. You don't understand how Revelation works. I'm not going to go point by point to correct the errors here because I have done that in the past and you didn't learn anything from it. I doubt you even read much of it.

You also clearly don't understand the events of the 6th seal is after the Great Tribulation not before it. Do you really think Jesus appears at the start of the GT to bring wrath? So he comes before the GT to rapture people, then hangs around for the GT to start so he can bring wrath to everyone before any of the wicked things of the GT take place?

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

There's the start of the Great Tribulation. Where is all that Christly wrath at that you claim happens??

lamad · Nov 30, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

I have been saying over and over that the great crowd TOO LARGE to number is the church seen in heaven just after the rapture. That is the WHO. That is the innumerable number, too many to count. It will be perhaps 50 generations of believers, multiplied billions. If one person counted one person a second for 8 hours a day for 5 days a week, it would take well over a hundred years for that person to count to ONE billion. Can you see why John said too many to count? There is NO WAY the martyrs of the 70th week will be a number too large to count. Always and forever, the saints NOT martyred well outnumber those who ARE martyred,

Just so you know, in this small area I disagree with that "other" poster.

what I wrote was there was NO hint this great number was killed as martyrs. He said they were martyrs.

Proof the rapture comes before the great crowd? WHERE is the great crowd? Them being in heaven is GREAT proof. But for further proof, Paul shows us in 1 Thes. 5 that the rapture comes just before the Day and just before wrath. In REvelation that would be just before the 6th seal in chapter 6, and that is certainly before John saw the great crowd in heaven.

NO idea what I am talking about? Sure you have an idea. Here is what I wrote:
"Since we all agree there WILL BE a rapture - and since we find a group too large to number in heaven right after the timing Paul declares for His rapture (Just before wrath)that SOUNDS just like the raptured church, then it makes good sense to BE the raptured church."

Do you agree there will be a rapture?
Do you agree that the dead in christ rising and then those caught up will be one very HUGE group of people?
Could you agree with John that this great crowd of raptured people in the clouds would be too big to count?

With that in mind, John SHOWS us a group too large to count, already in heaven, and that just after the timing Paul gives us for the rapture: Just before wrath.

That, my friend, is the duck. It SOUNDS like a duck, a huge group from all ethnic groups from all nations who have washed their robes in the blood of Jesus - means born again. Again, this group SOUNDS like John would describe the church in one place at one time.

It is in heaven in the timing that Paul lays out for His rapture. This is the LOOKING like a duck. I therefore declare IT IS A DUCK! That great crowd seen in heaven in Rev. 7 is a duck - I mean is the just raptured church, raptured just before the 6th seal and seen in the throne room of heaven.

The number of believers just before the Trib is only a very small fraction of ALL believers in the last 2,000 years. That is MY point. I agree. But at the rapture they will be all TOGETHER with the final generation - plus all the children of the world - one really HUGE crowd, in the billions. Indeed, a group far too large to number.

I still want to know how you plan in getting to the marriage and supper.

ewq1938 · Nov 30, 2021

lamad said:

Wrong. They are seen after the eternity of the GWTJ. That's over a thousand years after the rapture.

lamad · Nov 30, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Where you miss it: God can be angry (have wrath) will seated on the throne in heaven. Why do you imagine He must be on earth? ANGELS sound the trumpets that bring God's wrath to earth. ANGELS will pour out the vials of His wrath with associated plagues.

Can you show SCRIPTURE for your theory? I copied that list almost word for word out of Revelation using HIS Chronology. If you think John's Chronology is wrong, it is up to you to prove it with Scripture. Oh. I get it, you are trying to use human reasoning to prove John's chronology is messed up.

There's the start of the Great Tribulation. NO IT ISN'T! Do you not understand anything of John's chronology? Most of chapter 13 is written as a parenthesis, John taking us down the last half of the week AS A SIDE JOURNEY in a parenthesis. How do I know this? Because of chapter 14. The days of Great tribulation will be CAUSED by the Beast and False Prophet and all in the world that agrees with them by ENFORCING the image and mark, or behead those that refuse.

Do you imagine God would delay His warning to people about the mark until after many had already received it? NOT A CHANCE! The truth is, the Beast and False Prophet are NOT YET enforcing the mark in chapter 14 when the angel warns people not to take the mark. We can be sure, the days of GT Jesus spoke of will happen soon after this angel warning. Then we see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in Rev. 15.

You also clearly don't understand the events of the 6th seal is after the Great Tribulation not before it. Not it is not! Anyone that moves a seal to match a trumpet or match a vial is showing their lack of knowledge of John's great book. In your case it shows you don't understand the book or the seals or John's placement of them in His book.

First, you don't understand the importance of the Book. One of God's goals is to get to the 7th trumpet where Satan is stripped of his hold on earth, and cast down from the heavenly realms, while the earth and its kingdoms are given to Jesus. (Finally, after 6000 years as Satan as the god of this world.)

But HOW is God going to get to that 7th trumpet? The trumpets are written INSIDE the book. Before ANY trumpet can sound, all 7 seals must be opened first to get the BOOK opened. If you notice, the first event after the 7th seal is opened is that the 7 angels get their 7 trumpets. This cannot and will not happen before all seals are removed. The PURPOSE of the seals is to prevent the book from being opened (and getting Satan kicked off His throne) before the one who sealed it is present. But He had to DIE, and raise from the dead to be worthy to open those seals. It is simply impossible the way Revelation is written to move a seal to ANYWHERE ELSE in the book: they have to remain where they are, sealing the book, util every one is opened. You even want to open the 7th seal before the 6th! That is impossible: John NUMBERED THEM.

If you leave thing where John placed them, and form your theory from the book AS IS, you will do much better.

ewq1938 · Nov 30, 2021

lamad said:

You don't know what you are talking about and you do not understand Revelation at all.

randyk · Nov 30, 2021

Rondonmon said:

No, I've not been misled. I've just studied these things for decades, prayerfully. I don't claim, absolutely, I'm right, as you seem to be claiming about yourself.

I never said 70 AD was "the end." My position is not contingent upon that. What Jesus proclaimed was that Jerusalem would fall in his generation, leading to the worst period of punishment, or tribulation, in Israel's history. It encompasses the entire NT era!

And so, the 70 AD event Jesus predicted was to last until Jesus' 2nd Coming. In many ways, the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD was a prediction of the end, because the beginning of the punishment of the Jews meant that it would be resolved at the end of the age with the 2nd Coming of Jesus.

Therefore, Matt 24 does *not* show that the AoD is endtime. Rather, Jesus was asked when the temple would fall, and he answered by saying it would happen in "this generation."

And it did, in 70 AD. This began a period called the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People that will only end with the 2nd Coming of Christ. The AoD was not the Antichrist, but the beginning point of Israel's punishment. The Antichrist comes much later in history, when the Roman Empire reconstitutes under fallen Christian Civilization.

Absolutely · Nov 30, 2021

lamad said:

1) they came out of the great trib
( that alone makes them martyrs)
2) they have dirty robes that need washing( IOW Carnal believers left behind at the rapture....dirty robes)
3)the martyrs were kept under the altar.
These martyrs ( innumerable number) are now in the population of heaven.
4) The martyrs under the altar Puerto to wait until their number was fulfilled

Absolutely · Nov 30, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Same rapture verses you claim do not exist.

Those verses.

You know...the ones that you say do not exist.
Just refer back every time to "those"...wink ...wink....verses

Absolutely · Nov 30, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

Really?????
You want them again???

Absolutely · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:

""""He clearly indicated WHEN the resurrection would occur. "When He comes". That's AFTER the Trib"""

Rev 19 has those resurrected in heaven.
The bride has become the wife in heaven.
That is during the trib.

Besides that rev 14 has a gathering during the trib.
So either that is wrong, or 1 thes 4 is mistaken about the dead in Christ rising FIRST.

So i hope you can reconcile all that.

Absolutely · Dec 1, 2021

lamad said:

Yes, I place the rapture according to Paul just before the 6th seal start of the wrath of God. So the rapture in Rev. 6. The crowd in Rev. 7. It fits.

It is not written that they have dirty robes. They washed Their robes symbolically when they were born again:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

This is only chapter 7. The Day of the Lord has just officially been started, but no events yet have happened. At the time of chapter 7, those left behind are still wondering what happened. IF the rapture happens on the feast of trumpets, then the time between the 6th and 7th seals will probably be the ten days of Awe. Sorry, but martyrs will not be an uncountable number such as the rapture - 50 or so generations of believers. Just the number alone makes your theory impossible.

Where in Revelation do the beheaded saints start showing up in heaven? Not until chapter 15. Sorry, friend, but your theory does not work.

Not sure what you think you proved

Absolutely · Dec 1, 2021

lamad said:

Yes, I place the rapture according to Paul just before the 6th seal start of the wrath of God. So the rapture in Rev. 6. The crowd in Rev. 7. It fits.

It is not written that they have dirty robes. They washed Their robes symbolically when they were born again:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

This is only chapter 7. The Day of the Lord has just officially been started, but no events yet have happened. At the time of chapter 7, those left behind are still wondering what happened. IF the rapture happens on the feast of trumpets, then the time between the 6th and 7th seals will probably be the ten days of Awe. Sorry, but martyrs will not be an uncountable number such as the rapture - 50 or so generations of believers. Just the number alone makes your theory impossible.

Where in Revelation do the beheaded saints start showing up in heaven? Not until chapter 15. Sorry, friend, but your theory does not work.

ok
I see what you are saying

You think the wise virgins have dirty robes that need washing and are killed during the trib.

Nope that will not work at all.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

lamad said:

Why would you think the Bible needs to number them?

What is significant is that there is NO MENTION of any trip to heaven by resurrected saints.

How about doing this. Make a list of however many resurrections you find in the Bible and include a verse for each numbered resurrection with a brief explanation of who exactly is being resurrected.

That would help a lot.

Just making a claim about more than ONE resurrection isn't enough. You need to prove it from Scripture.

So I await your list, complete with verses and who is being referred to.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

lamad said:

Stop right there. What you HAVEN'T YET PROVEN is that this crowd got to heaven by "rapture". Again, there are NO VERSES showing Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers to heaven. Zero.

So everything else you posted is based on this false premise.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

Absolutely said:

Please remind me. I just can't remember ANYONE who has shared verses that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

Again, which ones?

Actually, I don't know. You've NEVER shown any that have Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

When you're done winking, just provide those so-called verses that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

But, of course, everyone knows, including you, that there are no such verses.

Because Jesus doesn't take any raptured believers to heaven.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Please prove this claim. From clear Scripture.

Absolutely said:

Whenever you're ready to share them. But that doesn't mean "again", as so far, you haven't shared ANY that show Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven.

I SURELY HAVE to believe that Jesus will take raptured believers to heaven IF IF IF the Bible says so.

So help me out here. Show me a verse.

FreeGrace2 · Dec 1, 2021

Absolutely said:

Where does it say they have been resurrected. That's just pure speculation and presumption.

No evidence that the wedding supper has occurred in heaven. Just more of your favored speculations.

And you have no evidence at all.

Ch 14 isn't chronological.

No. When Christ comes, the dead will be resurrected first.

No problem.

Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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