A golden key to understand the book of Revelations

[Evmur]

Fair enough, thanks for clarifying. It's you opinion it should start this way based on the RSV title of the book. It's not in the Greek. Not being critical, just like to be precise.

I agree it's to John; I just don't agree it should read this way.

The real point I am making is that the book being a prophecy concerning the period of time known as the day of the Lord does not really concern the church for the church will have gone. This is why I believe christians have such a difficulty in interpreting it.

Do christians have difficulties interpreting the revelation? ... yes indeedee, you can't find 2 christians to agree upon anything. Some don't even believe it is scripture.

And yet christians forsake the plain and clear prophecies that are given in the open scriptures in favour of interpretations [usually dubious] found in the revelation,

Every single thing the church needs to know concerning the end times right up to and including the Rapture is there in the open and plain scriptures ... after the Rap we don't need anything for we shall be with the Lord.

The church also struggles with chapters in Daniel which concern the Jews after the church is gone and chapters 40 onwards of Ezekiel.

Mebbe [apart from devotional value] the Holy Spirit does not teach it. When the disciples asked Jesus about the setting up of the kingdom in Jerusalem He said that is not for you to know, your job is to bear witness of Me.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Ahh, okay. I got hung up on the first part and missed what you said after that.

I only have one question. What makes you so sure Revelation 4:1 is the rapture? I know a lot of people sincerely believe it, but what's the clincher that settles it for you?

 

[Jocund]

Look here the church will not be here, after chapter 4 John hears a voice saying come up here and he is taken into heaven, from there on he is watching from heaven which is where the church will be.

The rest of the book concerns the then converted Jews and God's dealings with the nations.

I disagree.

Define "church" and define "converted Jew" and then show me where in scripture you are deriving these definitions.

 

[jb]

It never is Sunday in 1. Corinth. 11. I would remind you that the apostolic tradition was to break bread daily.

Try reading my post again, for you certainly DON'T understand it, for I'm NOT saying or implying that it refers to "Sunday" in 1Cor 11!

As regards:

Look here the church will not be here, after chapter 4 John hears a voice saying come up here and he is taken into heaven, from there on he is watching from heaven which is where the church will be.

From your OP, to make Rev 4v1 into a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture is just unbelievable, for you've completely twisted this Scripture out of all recognition in attempt to support your destructive heresy of a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture! 2Peter 3v16

You obviously treat Our Lord's warning in Rev 22v18,19 with complete contempt!

The Lord Jesus says that it is only false prophets and teachers who will teach a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture, and His teaching is that He will come in glory AFTER the Great Tribulation! Matt 24v23-31, Titus 2v13, Acts 1v9-12 with Zech 14v4.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Rev. 4:1​

After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.​

It's vital to emphasize that John was the one who was commanded to "come up hither," not the church!

Certainly, John is the Prophet of Revelation. He is being guided by Heavenly Beings like Jesus and Angels.
The 7 congregations in front of God are therefore Eternal. But in this present age (probably since ~800 AD - wild guess), they do not exist as independent bishoprics. That implies the 7 congregations are idealized archetypes. That is all I meant.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

What is the mark of the beast?

The number 666 is used 3 times in the OT (Solomon's wealth twice and census once).
There is no exact correlation with the bible, There is however 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials.
Those who do not see (and believe) the 7th seal takes the Glory of God for granted. The 6 seals are all just cycles of history - fantasies and fable to scare children. Those who do not hear (and take to heart) the 7th trumpet takes the Glory of Jesus away. The 6 trumpets are just insanities for the feeble minded and not clarion calls to defend the faith. Those who drink from broken cisterns of fetid salt water of the 7th vial (and argues they taste like fresh water of the fountain) takes away from the Chastity of the Bride. The 6 vials are for the others who profane, not our doctrines that profane.

As per Rev 14:6-12,
<7th Seal> - Fear God, and give glory to him
<7th Trumpet> - Babylon is fallen, is fallen
<7th Vial> - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God

 

[Evmur]

Try reading my post again, for you certainly DON'T understand it, for I'm NOT saying or implying that it refers to "Sunday" in 1Cor 11!

As regards:



From your OP, to make Rev 4v1 into a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture is just unbelievable, for you've completely twisted this Scripture out of all recognition in attempt to support your destructive heresy of a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture! 2Peter 3v16

You obviously treat Our Lord's warning in Rev 22v18,19 with complete contempt!

The Lord Jesus says that it is only false prophets and teachers who will teach a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture, and His teaching is that He will come in glory AFTER the Great Tribulation! Matt 24v23-31, Titus 2v13, Acts 1v9-12 with Zech 14v4.

I do not believe in a secret pretrib rapture. You need to differentiate between tribulation which comes from the world "in the world you will have tribulation" and God's wrath. God is pledged not to pour His wrath upon the righteous and the unrighteous alike.

We will be taken out, what is left of the church after the great end-time persecution aka the great tribulation.

 

[Evmur]

I disagree.

Define "church" and define "converted Jew" and then show me where in scripture you are deriving these definitions.

The church are the spiritual seed of Abraham. the heavenly body, "as numerous as the stars" the Jews are the natural seed or earthly body "as many as the sand for number"

The Jews have promises made to them which are not made to the church.

The church will be gathered to heaven , the Jews will be gathered to their enlarged homeland as promised and they shall inherit the earth. The purpose of the gathering for us and for them is to protect them from God's wrath.

 

[Evmur]

Ahh, okay. I got hung up on the first part and missed what you said after that.

I only have one question. What makes you so sure Revelation 4:1 is the rapture? I know a lot of people sincerely believe it, but what's the clincher that settles it for you?

The church is no more mentioned after that as being on earth, they are mentioned as being in heaven having come out of great tribulation.

 

[lamad]

When we read the book of Revelation, it's important to remember that our Lord took John spiritually into the future (this is prophecy), and many of the events he describes have yet to happen in real time, despite the fact that he witnessed them.

Since the beginning chapter was while John was alive, and chapter 21 is far into our future, somewhere between these two chapters is where the church is TODAY.
Many don't believe the truth, but the church has been at the 5th seal waiting for the final church age martyr and waiting for the Day of the Lord and final judgment to begin for almost 2000 years now.

 

[lamad]

The real point I am making is that the book being a prophecy concerning the period of time known as the day of the Lord does not really concern the church for the church will have gone. This is why I believe christians have such a difficulty in interpreting it.

Do christians have difficulties interpreting the revelation? ... yes indeedee, you can't find 2 christians to agree upon anything. Some don't even believe it is scripture.

And yet christians forsake the plain and clear prophecies that are given in the open scriptures in favour of interpretations [usually dubious] found in the revelation,

Every single thing the church needs to know concerning the end times right up to and including the Rapture is there in the open and plain scriptures ... after the Rap we don't need anything for we shall be with the Lord.

The church also struggles with chapters in Daniel which concern the Jews after the church is gone and chapters 40 onwards of Ezekiel.

Mebbe [apart from devotional value] the Holy Spirit does not teach it. When the disciples asked Jesus about the setting up of the kingdom in Jerusalem He said that is not for you to know, your job is to bear witness of Me.

I agree in part, but the rapture is certainly NOT in Rev. 4:1. That has been a HUGE hole in classical pretrib thinking. If we let a hundred 5th graders read that passage with no preconceptions, I believe all 100 would say that was JOHN being caught up to heaven to be shown things in his future.

 

[lamad]

The church is no more mentioned after that as being on earth, they are mentioned as being in heaven having come out of great tribulation.

This is not really truth either: the church may not be mentioned by name, but the first seal on the book is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. That first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book, so around 32 AD.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The book came without a title, the title was added to it. The opening line should read: The revelation to John, the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave him [John] to show unto His servants and He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John.

Why would you want to change the words of Scripture? So to get back to the actual words, this is what we see: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him [Jesus Christ], to shew unto His [Christ's] servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

Both the Critical Text and the Received Text have exactly the same words and the same syntax as translated above:
CRITICAL TEXT
Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Θεός, δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ, τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάνῃ,
RECEIVED TEXT
Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ

The meaning should be plain to all.

1. God the Father gave this Revelation to the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son.
2. Christ gave that revelation to His angel (possibly Gabriel, who also visited Daniel).
3. That angel conveyed the Revelation to John.
4. John passed it on to the servants of Christ.
5. Now this Revelation is accessible to the whole world.
6. However, only those who possess the Holy Spirit will understand what it means.

 

[lamad]

I do not believe in a secret pretrib rapture. You need to differentiate between tribulation which comes from the world "in the world you will have tribulation" and God's wrath. God is pledged not to pour His wrath upon the righteous and the unrighteous alike.

We will be taken out, what is left of the church after the great end-time persecution aka the great tribulation.

The pretrib rapture will not be "secret." it will be very loud. And all the world will know that SOMETHING happened: all the children will be gone.

 

[Evmur]

The pretrib rapture will not be "secret." it will be very loud. And all the world will know that SOMETHING happened: all the children will be gone.

"After the tribulation of those days .... they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send His angels forth to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven."

 

[Nehemiah6]

The real point I am making is that the book being a prophecy concerning the period of time known as the day of the Lord does not really concern the church for the church will have gone. This is why I believe christians have such a difficulty in interpreting it.

That is incorrect. The day of the Lord (which corresponds to the Great Tribulation) is only a portion of the book of Revelation. But Revelation is God's revelation for what will take place from the first coming of Christ until the New Heavens and the New Earth are established. Also "the day of the Lord (LORD)" is being confused with "the Lord's Day" (the first day of the week) by some people who are clueless.

So why do Christians have a hard time interpreting Revelation? Because many who have gone before have muddied the waters, claiming that (1) Revelation is entirely symbolic, (2) we do not need to take the events literally, (3) we do not need to take the events chronologically, and (4) we can play fast and loose with prophecy. Then we have people today claiming that even though Christ (through John) shut the door on any future prophecies. we have prophets walking around today claiming to bring new prophecies to the world.

 

[lamad]

The church is no more mentioned after that as being on earth, they are mentioned as being in heaven having come out of great tribulation.

True. But keep in mind, they were seen and written in Rev. chapter 7. I too believe that great crowd too large to number in the just raptured church. John saw them very shortly after they arrived in heaven. However, what is described is NOT how they arrived suddenly in heaven, what is described is how each one of them left the tribulation that is life on earth, and entered into eternal life by trusting in Jesus—being born again. Here God is calling life on earth as great tribulation. John was not told HOW they got from earth to heaven. John did not see the rapture so did not write of it. However, he gives us enough information to know, the rapture will be just before the 6th seal. The church is then seen in heaven shortly thereafter. In contrast, the 70th week will not begin until the 7th seal.

The days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of, that will be greater than any other time on earth, will not begin until late in chapter 14 in Revelation. Those days cannot begin until Jesus sends angels to warn people not to take the mark. Those days of GT Jesus spoke of will be caused by the Beast and False Prophet and they do not show up in Revelation until chapter 13.

 

[Nehemiah6]

"After the tribulation of those days .... they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send His angels forth to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven."

This is clearly a reference to the Second Coming of Christ. Which is completely different from the Resurrection/Rapture (which precedes it by at least seven years).

 

[lamad]

"After the tribulation of those days .... they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send His angels forth to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven."

This is a true statement, but don't ever confuse this gathering with Paul's gathering: they are two different gatherings for two different people groups and will be separated by over 7 years.

 

[Evmur]

Why would you want to change the words of Scripture? So to get back to the actual words, this is what we see: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him [Jesus Christ], to shew unto His [Christ's] servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

Both the Critical Text and the Received Text have exactly the same words and the same syntax as translated above:
CRITICAL TEXT
Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Θεός, δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ, τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάνῃ,
RECEIVED TEXT
Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ

The meaning should be plain to all.

1. God the Father gave this Revelation to the Lord Jesus Christ, His Son.
2. Christ gave that revelation to His angel (possibly Gabriel, who also visited Daniel).
3. That angel conveyed the Revelation to John.
4. John passed it on to the servants of Christ.
5. Now this Revelation is accessible to the whole world.
6. However, only those who possess the Holy Spirit will understand what it means.

I don't think so ... it is a little nonsensical that God should give Christ [who is sat next to Him and in His bosom] a revelation. It is my view, that the title of the book comprises the first line of the book.
The revelation to John ....