Bride of Christ - who is She?
- Thread starter DavidTree
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It is what Scripture says:
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
I am not an Israelite. So again:
Who are the 144,000? Why are they from the Jews only? What is their purpose? What is the time frame?
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand: Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
I am not an Israelite. So again:
Who are the 144,000? Why are they from the Jews only? What is their purpose? What is the time frame?
Yes, i see the tribes mentioned here by name - it does not say they are Jews of the flesh however.
There is only One Body of Christ and only One Israel of God in Christ, in Heaven - they are One and the same.
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”
8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring. 9For this is what the promise stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”c
10Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”e
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f
16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? 25As He says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people,
and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”i
26and,
“It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
they will be called
‘sons of the living God.’ ”j
There is only One Body of Christ and only One Israel of God in Christ, in Heaven - they are One and the same.
It is not as though God’s word has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children. On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”
8So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring. 9For this is what the promise stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”c
10Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”e
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f
16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? 25As He says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘My People’ who are not My people,
and I will call her ‘My Beloved’ who is not My beloved,”i
26and,
“It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
they will be called
‘sons of the living God.’ ”j
The way you seem to be spiritualizing Scripture, would indicate to me, that you have adopted the A-Millennial view point. Very popular today and has been gaining traction since the 1800's. However, my view is from the Premillennial perspective. Therefore, if you are approaching Scripture from "the church is the new Israel", then we can never meet eye to eye. However, I would like to give you this quote from W. E Best to consider:
The new covenant is connected with restoration promises. It is no longer revealed by shadows but by the Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled all the obligations and promises of the eternal covenant. Its blessings are for all of God’s elect. Those who spiritualize the kingdom ridicule the idea of a restored Israel. They accuse futurists of pinning their whole hope for the future on a castaway (Israel), thus proving their forced and unscholarly method of Biblical interpretation. Contrary to this accusation, Christians who embrace the Biblical teaching of the Scriptures concerning Christ’s kingdom are fastening their hope on the promise of Christ, not on Israel: “Looking [prosdechomenoi, present middle participle of prosdechomai, which means to look for, to expect, or await] for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). Hope is the expectation of something good or excellent to its highest degree. The personal unmediated presence of Jesus Christ is the object of this hope, and the eternal kingdom is its conclusion. What can excel the personal unmediated presence of Jesus Christ, in whom dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily, in the eternal kingdom?
“Confusion twice confounded” becomes evident when one begins considering the works of men on the subject of eschatology. Many “theologians” believe God’s promise to save the elect is unconditional, but they reverse their position on a promised consummation of soteriology in what they call a conditional kingdom. Thus, they make the covenant of grace unilateral, but they inconsistently make the covenant concerning the Kingdom bilateral. The “I will” and “I shall” of God are stressed in the first, but the “if” and “unfaithfulness” of men are emphasized in the second. One must understand that the fulfillment of God’s purpose is not limited by conditions outside the Person having purposed:
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God? God forbid [absolutely not].... —Romans 3:3,4 (translation) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, shall he not make it good?—Numbers 23:19
The unfaithfulness of neither the Jews nor the believers in the body of Christ can nullify the faithfulness of God concerning the fulfillment of His eternal purpose in regard to the kingdom:
...I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure. —Isaiah 46:9,10 (NASB)
A literal promise spiritualized is exegetical dishonesty. Theologians are guilty of this when they spiritualize the promises of salvation’s completion in the coming kingdom to mean its completion in the assembly Christ is building. How can salvation be completed in the assembly, since the assembly Christ is building is only one of the preparatory stages for the future kingdom? Scripture records not only Israel’s historical past but also her future and the future of the nations of the world subsequent to the assembly which Christ is presently building (Rom. 11; Rev. 7). How can the kingdom exist in the heart or be the church/kingdom since Christ has gone to receive it from the Father (Luke 19:12)?
Jewish and nonjewish believers of the Old Testament constitute one order of God’s elect. Jewish and nonjewish Christians of the New Testament—the assembly which is Christ’s bride—form the second order of God’s elect. The 144,000 Jews and the innumerable multitude of nonjews of Revelation 7 make up the third order of God’s elect. Hence, believing Jews plus engrafted believing Gentiles of all three orders constitute the heirs of the kingdom. There is nothing symbolical about either the unconditional covenant of grace or its consummation in the kingdom. Affirming God’s free grace in salvation while denying God’s freedom to complete that salvation in the kingdom does not make sense. On the other hand, denying God’s free grace in salvation while affirming God’s freedom to establish His kingdom is heresy. Although the latter is more heretical than the former, by God’s grace, believers do not have to make a choice of either/or. While the latter is distasteful to the spiritual nature of the Christian, the former is antagonistic to his hope.
I hope you take the time to read this and consider.
The new covenant is connected with restoration promises. It is no longer revealed by shadows but by the Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled all the obligations and promises of the eternal covenant. Its blessings are for all of God’s elect. Those who spiritualize the kingdom ridicule the idea of a restored Israel. They accuse futurists of pinning their whole hope for the future on a castaway (Israel), thus proving their forced and unscholarly method of Biblical interpretation. Contrary to this accusation, Christians who embrace the Biblical teaching of the Scriptures concerning Christ’s kingdom are fastening their hope on the promise of Christ, not on Israel: “Looking [prosdechomenoi, present middle participle of prosdechomai, which means to look for, to expect, or await] for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13). Hope is the expectation of something good or excellent to its highest degree. The personal unmediated presence of Jesus Christ is the object of this hope, and the eternal kingdom is its conclusion. What can excel the personal unmediated presence of Jesus Christ, in whom dwells the fullness of the Godhead bodily, in the eternal kingdom?
“Confusion twice confounded” becomes evident when one begins considering the works of men on the subject of eschatology. Many “theologians” believe God’s promise to save the elect is unconditional, but they reverse their position on a promised consummation of soteriology in what they call a conditional kingdom. Thus, they make the covenant of grace unilateral, but they inconsistently make the covenant concerning the Kingdom bilateral. The “I will” and “I shall” of God are stressed in the first, but the “if” and “unfaithfulness” of men are emphasized in the second. One must understand that the fulfillment of God’s purpose is not limited by conditions outside the Person having purposed:
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God? God forbid [absolutely not].... —Romans 3:3,4 (translation) God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, shall he not make it good?—Numbers 23:19
The unfaithfulness of neither the Jews nor the believers in the body of Christ can nullify the faithfulness of God concerning the fulfillment of His eternal purpose in regard to the kingdom:
...I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure. —Isaiah 46:9,10 (NASB)
A literal promise spiritualized is exegetical dishonesty. Theologians are guilty of this when they spiritualize the promises of salvation’s completion in the coming kingdom to mean its completion in the assembly Christ is building. How can salvation be completed in the assembly, since the assembly Christ is building is only one of the preparatory stages for the future kingdom? Scripture records not only Israel’s historical past but also her future and the future of the nations of the world subsequent to the assembly which Christ is presently building (Rom. 11; Rev. 7). How can the kingdom exist in the heart or be the church/kingdom since Christ has gone to receive it from the Father (Luke 19:12)?
Jewish and nonjewish believers of the Old Testament constitute one order of God’s elect. Jewish and nonjewish Christians of the New Testament—the assembly which is Christ’s bride—form the second order of God’s elect. The 144,000 Jews and the innumerable multitude of nonjews of Revelation 7 make up the third order of God’s elect. Hence, believing Jews plus engrafted believing Gentiles of all three orders constitute the heirs of the kingdom. There is nothing symbolical about either the unconditional covenant of grace or its consummation in the kingdom. Affirming God’s free grace in salvation while denying God’s freedom to complete that salvation in the kingdom does not make sense. On the other hand, denying God’s free grace in salvation while affirming God’s freedom to establish His kingdom is heresy. Although the latter is more heretical than the former, by God’s grace, believers do not have to make a choice of either/or. While the latter is distasteful to the spiritual nature of the Christian, the former is antagonistic to his hope.
I hope you take the time to read this and consider.
Yes, my Brother, i will read your posts. Please grant me rest for tonight as i need to rest my body from the pain i am in.
i will examine your words tommorrow - Thank You
I do not adhere to any of those doctrines and/or viewpoints.
Just Scripture without adding or taking away from the word's of God.
i do not add the flesh of earth and interject them into the Spirit of God in Heaven.
The Scripture says, there is no distinction in the Body of Christ - so i would never seek to undermine this.
i have noticed that some people who promote certain doctrines, do so by separating Jew from Gentile in CHRIST.
Now, i know and fully recognize that on earth, in the flesh, there is the Jew and the Gentile/Nations = CLEAR.
Concerning the Body of Christ, i want you to ponder this from the LORD:
What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.
If you would, offer up prayer on my behalf to the Lord for healing from Lymes Disease- Thank You and Good Nite
i will examine your words tommorrow - Thank You
I do not adhere to any of those doctrines and/or viewpoints.
Just Scripture without adding or taking away from the word's of God.
i do not add the flesh of earth and interject them into the Spirit of God in Heaven.
The Scripture says, there is no distinction in the Body of Christ - so i would never seek to undermine this.
i have noticed that some people who promote certain doctrines, do so by separating Jew from Gentile in CHRIST.
Now, i know and fully recognize that on earth, in the flesh, there is the Jew and the Gentile/Nations = CLEAR.
Concerning the Body of Christ, i want you to ponder this from the LORD:
What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.
If you would, offer up prayer on my behalf to the Lord for healing from Lymes Disease- Thank You and Good Nite
OK, i read it carefully and see the dividing up of the Body of Christ which comes not from Scripture but from man's intellectual prowess.
The KEY to understanding God's Will starts with this Eternal Commandment: Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
There is no distinction,
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all.
READ the letters to the churches in Revelation
Revelation is interwoven with actual accounts and with symbolism. No one can understand Revelation if they do not first understand Genesis to Revelation, and have the Holy Spirit to reveal this to them.
Do a word study on 'elect' in the Gospels and the Letters, pray that you may understand Matthew 25:1-13.
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,
because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
If you exchange the Holy Spirit for intellectual prowess - you will be greatly disappointed in the Kingdom of God.
YES, when the LORD Returns HE will restore the earth bound Israel = Matthew 23:37-39
The KEY to understanding God's Will starts with this Eternal Commandment: Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19
Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. You must not add to or subtract from what I command you, so that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I am giving you.
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.
But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets.
And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
There is no distinction,
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Do not lie to one another, since you have taken off the old self with its practices, and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or free, but Christ is all and is in all.
READ the letters to the churches in Revelation
Revelation is interwoven with actual accounts and with symbolism. No one can understand Revelation if they do not first understand Genesis to Revelation, and have the Holy Spirit to reveal this to them.
Do a word study on 'elect' in the Gospels and the Letters, pray that you may understand Matthew 25:1-13.
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,
because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.
Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
If you exchange the Holy Spirit for intellectual prowess - you will be greatly disappointed in the Kingdom of God.
YES, when the LORD Returns HE will restore the earth bound Israel = Matthew 23:37-39
I am sorry to hear that you are not filling well, I pray the Lord's will be done for you.
As to you seeing the body of the Lord being divided up? Your quote: "OK, I read it carefully and see the dividing up of the Body of Christ..." I really don't see any division being discussed in what W.E. Best had to say. Christ's Body is not divided. ALL of the ELECT were in Christ before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4) Therefore, for all practical purposes and understanding, the Elect have been saved from Eternity, before the world began. However, there are different temporal "economies" or "dispensations" in the carrying out of this Salvation towards the Elect. While the Divine method of Salvation, (Grace is Grace), never changes, (John 3:1-10; Rom. 8:28-30)), not all of the Elect experienced it in the same temporal dispensation.
The OT Saints, had not the Gospel as spoken by the Lord Himself, in His earthly ministry. They had to look upon Jesus Christ in types and shadows. Salvation came mostly upon the Jews, while some Gentiles were saved. They were chosen by God, nationally speaking, to be the conduit by which the Revelation of God would flow. Their sins were moved forward, by the temporal sacrifices, until the One True Sacrifice could be accomplished. Their hope was upon the coming of the Messiah. The one True King, who would restore the Kingdom to Israel. The restoration of this Kingdom, was so pervasive in their thinking, that even the Apostles inquired about it: Acts_1:6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? This question, also proves that the Apostles were not aware of any "spiritual kingdom" or that "the Kingdom had been established." Those that believe this or teach it, are being dishonest with the Scriptures.
The NT Saints, have the FULL revelation of the Son of God. Jesus Christ announced the building of His Assembly. What many call the church age. The OT Saints hoped to see this day, some did but part of their hope is yet unfulfilled. (Acts 1:6) The "Assembly", which Christ is building, was never mentioned in OT Prophecies concerning His "First Advent"; just as there was no mention of a "gap of time" between the first and second advents of Christ. The primary focus of this dispensation, are the Gentiles, with some Jews being saved. The NT believers, do not have to rely on "types and shadows", they have the completed revelation of Jesus Christ. Their Hope rests upon Jesus Christ (The Lamb of God, Messiah, Great High Priest, King of kings and Lord of lords), which will find it's fulfillment in the Kingdom, which is to come.
The Tribulation Saints, have the full revelation of Jesus Christ and will experience the promised out pouring of the Spirit, in a way that has never been seen before, in any temporal dispensation:
Joel 2:28-32 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit. And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call. (see Rom. 11:5)
The elect Jews and Gentiles, of this temporal dispensation, are saved by God's Grace. Just as the OT and NT Saints. When the Lord appears, All of the ELECT are now united in the Kingdom age. One King and one Lord. For when Christ returns to the earth, He will bring the Kingdom with Him.
SAME SALVATION, BEING BROUGHT ABOUT UPON THE SAME PEOPLE - THE ELECT OF GOD, IN CHRIST - BUT IN DIFFERENT DISPENSATIONS.
You keep saying that there is no distinction of Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ. Do you properly understand that concept? Salvation comes to both without distinction - both are saved by God's mercy and compassion and that salvation bestowed on whom He pleases. The Jews thought they were the chosen people and all other nations had been rejected by God. Thus, they boasted in their relationship with God. The Apostle Paul is setting forth an argument against this kind of thought. However, Paul was aware of the special relationship that Israel had with Jehovah. They had the presents of the Lord (Ark), They had the meeting tent of the Lord. (Tabernacle and Temple later). They had the place God had chosen to put His name, (Jerusalem). They were the custodians of the Law. Through them came the Lord of Glory.
Scripture makes distinction between Jew and Gentile but not as to touching the election.
Eph 2:12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom_2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom_10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom_11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Foreknowledge, Election and Predestination bring our mind into Eternity. Calling, Justification and glorification bring our mind into time. Keep that which is Eternal - eternal and that which is Temporal - temporal. Election, based upon the Fathers love of the elect, is eternal with Him. Calling, is based upon election, through the Gospel and comes to each person at it's proper time, in the proper dispensation of time. Eternity guarantees it - Time secures it.
As to you seeing the body of the Lord being divided up? Your quote: "OK, I read it carefully and see the dividing up of the Body of Christ..." I really don't see any division being discussed in what W.E. Best had to say. Christ's Body is not divided. ALL of the ELECT were in Christ before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4) Therefore, for all practical purposes and understanding, the Elect have been saved from Eternity, before the world began. However, there are different temporal "economies" or "dispensations" in the carrying out of this Salvation towards the Elect. While the Divine method of Salvation, (Grace is Grace), never changes, (John 3:1-10; Rom. 8:28-30)), not all of the Elect experienced it in the same temporal dispensation.
The OT Saints, had not the Gospel as spoken by the Lord Himself, in His earthly ministry. They had to look upon Jesus Christ in types and shadows. Salvation came mostly upon the Jews, while some Gentiles were saved. They were chosen by God, nationally speaking, to be the conduit by which the Revelation of God would flow. Their sins were moved forward, by the temporal sacrifices, until the One True Sacrifice could be accomplished. Their hope was upon the coming of the Messiah. The one True King, who would restore the Kingdom to Israel. The restoration of this Kingdom, was so pervasive in their thinking, that even the Apostles inquired about it: Acts_1:6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? This question, also proves that the Apostles were not aware of any "spiritual kingdom" or that "the Kingdom had been established." Those that believe this or teach it, are being dishonest with the Scriptures.
The NT Saints, have the FULL revelation of the Son of God. Jesus Christ announced the building of His Assembly. What many call the church age. The OT Saints hoped to see this day, some did but part of their hope is yet unfulfilled. (Acts 1:6) The "Assembly", which Christ is building, was never mentioned in OT Prophecies concerning His "First Advent"; just as there was no mention of a "gap of time" between the first and second advents of Christ. The primary focus of this dispensation, are the Gentiles, with some Jews being saved. The NT believers, do not have to rely on "types and shadows", they have the completed revelation of Jesus Christ. Their Hope rests upon Jesus Christ (The Lamb of God, Messiah, Great High Priest, King of kings and Lord of lords), which will find it's fulfillment in the Kingdom, which is to come.
The Tribulation Saints, have the full revelation of Jesus Christ and will experience the promised out pouring of the Spirit, in a way that has never been seen before, in any temporal dispensation:
Joel 2:28-32 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: and also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my Spirit. And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call. (see Rom. 11:5)
The elect Jews and Gentiles, of this temporal dispensation, are saved by God's Grace. Just as the OT and NT Saints. When the Lord appears, All of the ELECT are now united in the Kingdom age. One King and one Lord. For when Christ returns to the earth, He will bring the Kingdom with Him.
SAME SALVATION, BEING BROUGHT ABOUT UPON THE SAME PEOPLE - THE ELECT OF GOD, IN CHRIST - BUT IN DIFFERENT DISPENSATIONS.
You keep saying that there is no distinction of Jew and Gentile in the body of Christ. Do you properly understand that concept? Salvation comes to both without distinction - both are saved by God's mercy and compassion and that salvation bestowed on whom He pleases. The Jews thought they were the chosen people and all other nations had been rejected by God. Thus, they boasted in their relationship with God. The Apostle Paul is setting forth an argument against this kind of thought. However, Paul was aware of the special relationship that Israel had with Jehovah. They had the presents of the Lord (Ark), They had the meeting tent of the Lord. (Tabernacle and Temple later). They had the place God had chosen to put His name, (Jerusalem). They were the custodians of the Law. Through them came the Lord of Glory.
Scripture makes distinction between Jew and Gentile but not as to touching the election.
Eph 2:12 that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom_2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom_2:10 But glory, honor, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom_10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom_11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Foreknowledge, Election and Predestination bring our mind into Eternity. Calling, Justification and glorification bring our mind into time. Keep that which is Eternal - eternal and that which is Temporal - temporal. Election, based upon the Fathers love of the elect, is eternal with Him. Calling, is based upon election, through the Gospel and comes to each person at it's proper time, in the proper dispensation of time. Eternity guarantees it - Time secures it.
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God's Elect were known and chosen by the Father since - "before the creation of the world" - Eph 1:4
Ditch this error = "However, there are different temporal "economies" or "dispensations" in the carrying out of this Salvation towards the Elect. While the Divine method of Salvation, (Grace is Grace), never changes, (John 3:1-10; Rom. 8:28-30)), not all of the Elect experienced it in the same temporal dispensation. "
Embrace this TRUTH: Ephesians, Galatians , Romans, Gospel of John, Acts, 1 John, Revelation
The Body of Christ is not living before Christ but after Christ's First Coming - we are under the Gospel and FREE from the Law.
The earthbound nation of Israel are in darkness, bound by sin and under the Law - they cannot be saved apart from the Gospel.
Focus and meditate on " John ch 1, Acts 11:1-18 , Acts 15:1-22 , Col 3:11 , Rom 3:22 , Rom 10:12
Print out this Scripture and place it on the wall where you can see it everyday and speak it out.
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all
Any separating/dividing the Body of Christ is sin and comes from the spirit of error working thru carnal knowledge.
There is NO Distinction between the Saints living now/today and the Saints in Revelation = SAME Body of Christ.
The Saints in Revelation are not a 'special group of Jews according to the flesh' = false teaching and error.
Ditch this error = "However, there are different temporal "economies" or "dispensations" in the carrying out of this Salvation towards the Elect. While the Divine method of Salvation, (Grace is Grace), never changes, (John 3:1-10; Rom. 8:28-30)), not all of the Elect experienced it in the same temporal dispensation. "
Embrace this TRUTH: Ephesians, Galatians , Romans, Gospel of John, Acts, 1 John, Revelation
The Body of Christ is not living before Christ but after Christ's First Coming - we are under the Gospel and FREE from the Law.
The earthbound nation of Israel are in darkness, bound by sin and under the Law - they cannot be saved apart from the Gospel.
Focus and meditate on " John ch 1, Acts 11:1-18 , Acts 15:1-22 , Col 3:11 , Rom 3:22 , Rom 10:12
Print out this Scripture and place it on the wall where you can see it everyday and speak it out.
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all
Any separating/dividing the Body of Christ is sin and comes from the spirit of error working thru carnal knowledge.
There is NO Distinction between the Saints living now/today and the Saints in Revelation = SAME Body of Christ.
The Saints in Revelation are not a 'special group of Jews according to the flesh' = false teaching and error.
Sorry for taking so long to reply, busy weekend. Hope you are feeling better.
How can you say the following?
"Ditch this error = "However, there are different temporal "economies" or "dispensations" in the carrying out of this Salvation towards the Elect. While the Divine method of Salvation, (Grace is Grace), never changes, (John 3:1-10; Rom. 8:28-30)), not all of the Elect experienced it in the same temporal dispensation. "
To deny this - is to deny the literal and historical facts of Scripture. There are "dispensations" taught in Scripture:
Eph 1:9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
Eph 1:10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth
The word translated "dispensation" in the Greek, is: οἰκονομίαν from the noun, οἰκονόμος (oy-kon-om-os - wherein we get the english word "economy"). It means: Administration, dispensation or religious economy.
Additionally, To "ditch this error" as you put it, would mean ignoring the historical facts, in regards to the different ways in which God gave us His revelation.
Heb 1:1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by various portions and in various manners,
Heb 1:2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
These two verses - prove there are different economies or dispensations. There was the historical period of the "Prophets" (OT) and later "the Son" (NT).
I detect in your arguments, that you are spiritualizing the Kingdom. Either you believe the Kingdom is here already or you believe the Kingdom of our Lord is in your heart. Neither is true. The Kingdom is future. Having the wrong view of the Kingdom can cause serious errors in understanding the Divine Economies.
Christ has gone to receive the Kingdom from His Father and will return: Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country, to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
How can you say the following?
"Ditch this error = "However, there are different temporal "economies" or "dispensations" in the carrying out of this Salvation towards the Elect. While the Divine method of Salvation, (Grace is Grace), never changes, (John 3:1-10; Rom. 8:28-30)), not all of the Elect experienced it in the same temporal dispensation. "
To deny this - is to deny the literal and historical facts of Scripture. There are "dispensations" taught in Scripture:
Eph 1:9 making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him
Eph 1:10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth
The word translated "dispensation" in the Greek, is: οἰκονομίαν from the noun, οἰκονόμος (oy-kon-om-os - wherein we get the english word "economy"). It means: Administration, dispensation or religious economy.
Additionally, To "ditch this error" as you put it, would mean ignoring the historical facts, in regards to the different ways in which God gave us His revelation.
Heb 1:1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by various portions and in various manners,
Heb 1:2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds;
These two verses - prove there are different economies or dispensations. There was the historical period of the "Prophets" (OT) and later "the Son" (NT).
I detect in your arguments, that you are spiritualizing the Kingdom. Either you believe the Kingdom is here already or you believe the Kingdom of our Lord is in your heart. Neither is true. The Kingdom is future. Having the wrong view of the Kingdom can cause serious errors in understanding the Divine Economies.
Christ has gone to receive the Kingdom from His Father and will return: Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country, to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
2 Corinthians, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him” Through Christ’s sacrifice, intimacy with the Father can be restored and sins forgiven. Through Christ’s atonement, we are presented to God with the purity of a virgin on her wedding day.
(Ephesians 5:21-24).
“submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything”
“Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear” (Revelation 19:7-8).
(Ephesians 5:21-24).
“submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything”
“Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear” (Revelation 19:7-8).
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I have noticed some scripture not at all being used when it comes to bride. Not touching this.. well when its "you that don't understand".. how to you talk to a wall.. no offense. There are scholars that would differ on many things here.. but they get tossed out. Not my word to tell anyone what HE really meant. I will say, this really gets some people going. Maybe just maybe remember we all grow differently and you can be doing more harm then good. Some its meat some its milk. Relax
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Which christ? How do you know who the real christ is?
While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”
Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.