How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Absolutely]

I assume we're talking about 2 Thess. 2:1-3 here. Yes, it's solid post-trib rapture beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I have seen pre-tribbers fiddle with apostasia to try to make it mean something else and it still doesn't work.

Another tool in your belt is that changing the meaning of apostasia doesn't actually help the pre-trib rapture because in the context Jesus doesn't return until the man of sin is already in God's temple claiming himself to be God. Jesus "shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Jesus shows up to destroy the anti-Christ, one of the main antagonists of the great tribulation. Boom. There you go. No matter how they want to spin it, pre-trib doesn't fit the context. At some point, and I hate to admit it because I love to see the good in people and assume the best, but not every Bible scholar has honest motives in these forums.

2 thes 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

Something stopping the revealing of the ac

You say it is heretics stopping his revealing.

Interesting.
It is bewildering that you need things twisted, then claim superiority over us

 

[Runningman]

That is the very point we are disagreeing on!

Where you miss it: Paul declared that it was a mystery: before God revealed to Paul that those who were alive and in Christ would be caught up and changed. That means NO ONE ELSE KNEW that. Most of them knew that at some time the dead would be resurrected. But they did not know when. It seems many today still don't know when. I think Paul made it clear that it would come BEFORE wrath. Some here try to place is after the trib which would be after wrath. Others (not on this thread) have gone so far as to divide wrath from wrath: as if God got angry, got over it, then got angry again. Others have gone so far as to MOVE God's wrath to after Jesus descends. That theory requires a total rearranging of Revelation, proving it is false.

"overwhelming evidence " Ha ha ha! You really made my day with that statement! Let's see:
His coming on white horses in one place, but no white horses in the other...
His coming after the trib in one place, but coming before wrath in the other...
His coming FOR the saints in one place, but coming WITH the saints in another...
His coming with ONE archangel in one place, but coming with MANY angels in another...
The gathering (of who or what is not given) done by angels in one place, but by the power of the Holy Spirit in another place.

Your overwhelming evidence is that both instances include the words "gather" and "trumpet."

The truth, my friend, is that the overwhelming evidence is these are SEPARATE events.

Paul described after the tribulation Christ would return (2 Thess. 2:1-3, 8) That is a very ambiguous passage since the Greek texts do not agree and there is much disagreement as to the meaning.

I disagree with almost everything you said.

Let me ask you this exploratory question, then. Do you believe there are many (2 or more) comings of Christ on the clouds, with His angels, with a trumpet, to gather His elect? Or just one event like this?

 

[lamad]

I disagree with almost everything you said.

Let me ask you this exploratory question, then. Do you believe there are many (2 or more) comings of Christ on the clouds, with His angels, with a trumpet, to gather His elect? Or just one event like this?

Let's see:
on the clouds
with His angels,
with a trumpet
a gathering of His elect

I think the bible tells us of ONLY ONE such event, after the tribulation of those days.

IN contrast, Paul's rapture:
The mention of clouds is that we are caught up into the air in in the clouds where Christ is doing the calling.
Paul mentions, "with the trump of God," and "at the last trump..."
Paul mentions only one Archangel
Paul uses the word "gathering" but does not use the word "elect."

Differences:
On Revelation's time line, Paul's gathering will be just before wrath or just before the 6th seal in chapter 6, while the gathering of the elect from Matthew 24 would be in found in Rev. 19 if John had written it. That is many chapter's difference.

The gathering in Matthew 24 shows Christ and the armies of heaven coming with Him all on white horses. Paul's rapture verses have no white horses. Posttribbers must ad lib them.

The coming in Matthew 24 is a coming to WAR, while the coming in Paul's passages is a coming to collect the bride. the postrib theory tries to merge a coming FOR His bride with a coming WITH His bride.

Paul tells us the rapture will come before the Day of the Lord, but at the time of the Matthew 24 gathering THE DAY has started years before and continues on.

if the rapture is "after the trib' of those days, as Matthew states it will be impossible for the church to get to the marriage and supper. Some posttribbers try to solve this dilemma by moving the marriage and supper to the air! Others by moving it to earth. Yet they accuse the pretribbers of twisting the Word.

if the rapture is "after the trib' of those days, as Matthew states it will be impossible for Jesus to find righteous "sheep" in natural bodies for His judgment of the nations.

The postrib rapture theory cannot tell the difference to a coming only to the air, with a coming and a touchdown.

Yet, posttribbers ignore all these differences and demand pretribbers believe as they believe.

 

[lamad]

carnal intellectual reliance = rebellious/unbelieving heart = man-made doctrine = doctrines of demons

Hmmm. You just described the postrib theory!

 

[Runningman]

Let's see:
on the clouds
with His angels,
with a trumpet
a gathering of His elect

I think the bible tells us of ONLY ONE such event, after the tribulation of those days.

Yes, there's only one event like that. Did you notice that Paul's rapture and Jesus' return include Christ coming on the clouds with a trumpet, His angels present, to gather people?

IN contrast, Paul's rapture:
The mention of clouds is that we are caught up into the air in in the clouds where Christ is doing the calling.
Paul mentions, "with the trump of God," and "at the last trump..."
Paul mentions only one Archangel
Paul uses the word "gathering" but does not use the word "elect."

Differences:
On Revelation's time line, Paul's gathering will be just before wrath or just before the 6th seal in chapter 6, while the gathering of the elect from Matthew 24 would be in found in Rev. 19 if John had written it. That is many chapter's difference.

The gathering in Matthew 24 shows Christ and the armies of heaven coming with Him all on white horses. Paul's rapture verses have no white horses. Posttribbers must ad lib them.

The coming in Matthew 24 is a coming to WAR, while the coming in Paul's passages is a coming to collect the bride. the postrib theory tries to merge a coming FOR His bride with a coming WITH His bride.

Paul tells us the rapture will come before the Day of the Lord, but at the time of the Matthew 24 gathering THE DAY has started years before and continues on.

if the rapture is "after the trib' of those days, as Matthew states it will be impossible for the church to get to the marriage and supper. Some posttribbers try to solve this dilemma by moving the marriage and supper to the air! Others by moving it to earth. Yet they accuse the pretribbers of twisting the Word.

if the rapture is "after the trib' of those days, as Matthew states it will be impossible for
Jesus to find righteous "sheep" in natural bodies for His judgment of the nations.

The postrib rapture theory cannot tell the difference to a coming only to the air, with a coming and a touchdown.

Yet, posttribbers ignore all these differences and demand pretribbers believe as they believe.

Your reasons for why Christ and Paul boil down to semantics . The word gathered doesn't have to be used if it's being described. Christ comes to resurrect the deceased saints and those who are alive and remain are caught up together in the clouds where Christ is. That's the definition of what a gathering is. Your reason for dismissing it as something different because the word "gather" isn't used is invalid.

Christ is doing the gathering because He's commanding the angels. The angels are His laborers. It's Christ's gathering because He owns the gathering as the Master. The angels don't own the gathering even though they are doing the footwork.

Notice who the owner is throughout this process. It's Christ. Christ owns the angels and His elect.
Matthew 24:31
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a normal way to understand any sort relationship between an owner and laborers. Fieldworkers aren't harvesting their crop, they're harvesting their bosses crop and gathering it into his barn. It's the bosses harvest, not the field worker's harvest. Does that make sense?

 

[DavidTree]

If i am reading that correctly the removal of an item must happen before the REVEALING ( NOT INSTALLED..ONLY REVEALED) Of the AC.

Any postribber want to challenge that?

In all that you do bring Glory to the Savior and do not add to His words or take away from them.

The LORD Jesus said: Immediately after the tribulation...........His Coming and gathering the Elect.

the LORD said "falling away" - apostacy Matthew 24:10
the Apostle Paul said : "falling away"= apostacy 2 Thess 2:1-3
the Apostle John said: Departure from the faith = apostacy 1John 2:18-19
the HOLY SPIRT said: Departure from the faith = apostacy 1 Timothy 4:1

Any attempt to undermine the words of God is the spirit of error, pride and antichrist.

Repent now and God will Bless you with Peace and Understanding.

Beware of the false peace that comes from believing a lie as Eve did in the Garden.

 

[DavidTree]

Hmmm. You just described the postrib theory!

YES, the LORD said "Immediately after the Tribulation" is His Coming for the Resurrection and gathering of alive Saints/Elect.

The LORD Jesus Christ is a "Post-Trib" Prophet of Righteousness.

Anyone who seeks to undermine the words of the LORD is antichrist.

 

[Oblio]

Hmm, I choose to limit myself to posting on 2 threads today...and indeed I didn't even plan on logging in but a few caught my eye lol.


I saw another poster in another thread on this topic say he can see pre, mid, post and indeed I have seen people use scriptures to support each one. I can see a view that has no rapture at all except Christ's return (and what goes along with that) returning with those previously dead in Christ and then the supper, marriage, MK, etc.

Or whatever the order is...my memory is foggy right now. I simulate a lot of what if scenarios and feel as though I'm prepared somewhat. Ideally the best is leaving before anything "really" bad happens globally. What about all the martyrs throughout history though? What about John the baptizer? Do you think anyone really "wants" to go through gruesome torture and equally gruesome deaths for the Lord? There's no way their flesh does leastways.

Since I constantly battle my flesh and its desires, I don't expect the conclusion to this to be in any way easy regardless.

Tomorrow sounds good to me, though I'd still like to know what having a wife is like. Certainly willing to forgo that, maybe there is procreation in the MK? hard to say.


I believed mid-trib all my life. It just "was". It's how scripture just made sense to me since I was young. Idk why really, because when I start to really "try" and take a look it's like an ever shifting dream.



Clearly it's not like that for some of you...but what if you're wrong? What then? What if you are literally blinded to the truth of it because the truth is that no one knows entirely? Each of us may have the bits and pieces we need, but does anyone truly want to state that "they" have all the answers? To the point where you could justify shutting someone down or causing discord? I think not.


Perhaps you do. Why then don't I? Why then doesn't every believer understand it incredibly clearly after sometimes decades of study? Why is it shrouded in mystery?

"Oh, but if you only read it this way...then you'd understand"
"Oh, clearly you are intentionally warping scripture to suit your own agenda and the truth is not in you!!!"
"umm...it already happened. This is eternity. wake up" (Note: I don't in any way agree with preterism)


It gets old to be honest. All the dreams I've ever had suggest serious physical "spillover" from the spiritual is impending and as it ramps up I don't have time to debate stuff like this or even theorize really. I don't know "when" and focusing overmuch on it leads to negative behaviors for me.

I actually get ticked off in my impatience to the point of anger against the Lord to the delay. Which does bring up the "How long, Lord" verse in Revelation. Which didn't ever make sense to me. His timing isn't mine. There are times when that is extremely challenging lately when it used to just be resolute acceptance. When I couldn't understand even seeming impatience by the saints in heaven.


I may (probably) be rambling a "tad" here but it just irritates me that no one "really" seems to know. That we have SO many different opinions and that consensus in the Spirit seems to not be the Lord's will at this time. Frustrating, but the reason for that is a little more clear to me after typing this. Not crystal...it's more clear though


Each view gives a person different motivations. If it produces a lukewarm licentiousness...probably it needs some looking at.

If it produces a self-righteous "wise in your own eyes" mentality...probably needs some looking at.

If it provides you with peace that surpasses all understanding and "still" ends up being wrong as time unfolds...


Then the verse in Job "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. He also shall be my salvation..." 13:15-16a


Have a blessed week.

Interesting post...I enjoyed reading it..."Let the praise of the Lord be in my mouth!" You have a blessed week too, MII!

 

[Nehemiah6]

The LORD Jesus Christ is a "Post-Trib" Prophet of Righteousness.

Now who is adding to the Word of God? After the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation Christ certainly DOES NOT come as a Prophet. He comes as the divine Judge, and what we see is the Wrath of the Lamb at His Second Coming. Definitely not any rapture.

 

[DavidTree]

Now who is adding to the Word of God? After the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation Christ certainly DOES NOT come as a Prophet. He comes as the divine Judge, and what we see is the Wrath of the Lamb at His Second Coming. Definitely not any rapture.

I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19

the LORD Jesus Christ is the Prophet that Moses prophesied of.

The words of the LORD, the PROPHET of GOD, when HE spoke on earth = Matthew ch24

Do you really want to give an account before the LORD of 'adding to His words or taking away from them"

the LORD, the PROPHET of GOD, said "Immediately after the Tribulation..........His Coming and gathering of His Elect."

For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:22-23

Broteher Nehemiah6, i keep reaching out to you in the love of Christ to turn away from the falsehood of pre-trib.

HE loves you and HE does not want you to give an account for adding to His words, neither do i.

This is not a debate - we should approach God's words with the utmost reverence and fear so as not to be deceived as Eve was.

 

[lamad]

YES, the LORD said "Immediately after the Tribulation" is His Coming for the Resurrection and gathering of alive Saints/Elect.

The LORD Jesus Christ is a "Post-Trib" Prophet of Righteousness.

Anyone who seeks to undermine the words of the LORD is antichrist.

Wow! Talk about adding to scripture.

Here is what it DOES say:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sign will be brilliant light like lightning flashing across the dark sky.
All the tribes of earth will mourn.
Every eye will see Him coming in the clouds with power and GREAT glory or brightness.
Angels are sent to gather together the elect from the four winds - one end of heaven to the other.

What you added:
Resurrection
saints.

 

[lamad]

In all that you do bring Glory to the Savior and do not add to His words or take away from them.

The LORD Jesus said: Immediately after the tribulation...........His Coming and gathering the Elect.

the LORD said "falling away" - apostacy Matthew 24:10
the Apostle Paul said : "falling away"= apostacy 2 Thess 2:1-3
the Apostle John said: Departure from the faith = apostacy 1John 2:18-19
the HOLY SPIRT said: Departure from the faith = apostacy 1 Timothy 4:1

Any attempt to undermine the words of God is the spirit of error, pride and antichrist.

Repent now and God will Bless you with Peace and Understanding.

Beware of the false peace that comes from believing a lie as Eve did in the Garden.

It all depends on which English translation you quote.

1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

What is Paul's theme? The coming and the departing (gathering - then departing).

 

[DavidTree]

Wow! Talk about adding to scripture.

Here is what it DOES say:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sign will be brilliant light like lightning flashing across the dark sky.
All the tribes of earth will mourn.
Every eye will see Him coming in the clouds with power and GREAT glory or brightness.
Angels are sent to gather together the elect from the four winds - one end of heaven to the other.

What you added:
Resurrection
saints.

I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19

the LORD Jesus Christ is the Prophet that Moses prophesied of.

The words of the LORD, the PROPHET of GOD, when HE spoke on earth = Matthew ch24

Do you really want to give an account before the LORD of 'adding to His words or taking away from them"

the LORD, the PROPHET of GOD, said "Immediately after the Tribulation..........His Coming and gathering of His Elect."

For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:22-23

HE loves you and HE does not want you to give an account for adding to His words, neither do i.

This is not a debate - we should approach God's words with the utmost reverence and fear so as not to be deceived as Eve was.

 

[lamad]

Yes, there's only one event like that. Did you notice that Paul's rapture and Jesus' return include Christ coming on the clouds with a trumpet, His angels present, to gather people?



Your reasons for why Christ and Paul boil down to semantics . The word gathered doesn't have to be used if it's being described. Christ comes to resurrect the deceased saints and those who are alive and remain are caught up together in the clouds where Christ is. That's the definition of what a gathering is. Your reason for dismissing it as something different because the word "gather" isn't used is invalid.

Christ is doing the gathering because He's commanding the angels. The angels are His laborers. It's Christ's gathering because He owns the gathering as the Master. The angels don't own the gathering even though they are doing the footwork.

Notice who the owner is throughout this process. It's Christ. Christ owns the angels and His elect.
Matthew 24:31
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is a normal way to understand any sort relationship between an owner and laborers. Fieldworkers aren't harvesting their crop, they're harvesting their bosses crop and gathering it into his barn. It's the bosses harvest, not the field worker's harvest. Does that make sense?

It is not what is similar that divides His future comings - it is what is different. There is simply too much different—they are not the same coming, but instead, TWO comings.

 

[DavidTree]

It all depends on which English translation you quote.

1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

What is Paul's theme? The coming and the departing (gathering - then departing).

The HOLY SPIRIT made clear what the departure is = 2 Thess 2:1-3 , 1 Timothy 4:1 , 1 John 2:18-19

HE, the SPIRIT of TRUTH, never lies.

 

[peldom10]

That is the reason the new age religion bibles, generated since the 1960's, are each slightly modified of meaning and intent so sleeping Christians and newly Christ followers are miss led....as much as possible. It helps them to call into questions new interpretations of scripture in attempt to alter God's true word.

We must resist and fight such actions as much as possible being Christs' ambassadors/disciples.

 

[DavidTree]

That is the reason the new age religion bibles, generated since the 1960's, are each slightly modified of meaning and intent so sleeping Christians and newly Christ followers are miss led....as much as possible. It helps them to call into questions and new interpretations of true scripture in attempt to alter God's true word.

Yeah, like saying the apostacy of 2 Thess ch2 is the rapture of the Elect = totally New Age and antichrist

 

[ewq1938]

I could find countless more. I am not the only one who reads this passage as the departing of the church.

It's departing FROM the church in Apostasy and, yes, you are the only one who gets this wrong. Not one Greek resource on this word thinks it's a physical departure at rapture. Only people who do not understand Greek language are those who try to change definition Apostasia to something it does not mean nor can mean.

 

[ewq1938]

Yet, several of the earlier translators, before the KJV, translated apostasia as "departing." They were not influenced by the KJV.

Yes but it is a religious departing not a physical one. It is Apostasy and how that Apostasy happens is through unbiblical doctrines that teach people to commit Apostasy/Apostasia. The line is very long for the Apostasy.

 

[Mii]

You have a blessed week too, MII!

Likewise, I appreciate it. Thanks.

reactions don't quite communicate enough sometimes, alas.