Backsliding

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CS1

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So then would you say that backsliding doesn't mean the person has to get saved again,some Pentecostals say that a person that backslides Is not saved anymore,so then If a person backslides would you say that that person can come back to church as though they never left like the prodigal son?
I don't know about not being saved anymore or as some of the Calvinists would say there most likely never were.

Here is a point I think you might appreciate, yet I could be wrong :) Pray and seek yourself.

Anyway,

Jesus in Revelation 3 was speaking to the "church" Those who knew him but had issues. He Jesus said You are hot or cold BUT I would rather that you be one or the other but you are not Therefore I will vomit you out of my Mouth.
Jesu was speaking to

  1. the Churches
  2. their sin and issues he had with them
  3. what it was they were doing wrong
  4. How to do right and be restored
Remember the parable of the Sower. There were those who heard but did not believe, those who heard and received yet did not remain and those who heard received, and Produced They were known as the Good all others fell short.

Jesus judges HIS church first. That is what we are seeing in Revelation chapters 2 to three. He is preparing them for HIS return, IF they do what HE says There are HIS IF they do not They never were.
 

Lanolin

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I think the Hebrews had their chances (which is why it was so severe for them to fall away from God) they had something like 490 years to repent or something, and if they didnt when their Messiah came IN PERSON they were likely never to repent after He'd gone away.

You need to look at it from the Hebrews perspective as that is where the 'no more sacrifice' thing came from. Jesus was the sacrifice.
 

Roughsoul1991

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I hear you. However, I thought that Repentance was a one-time thing for a True Believer. Being granted the Ability to Repent is what I think is the 2nd basic Work of Christ. It seems, according to the Bible (and not me) that the first Work is the removal of the Curse of the Lord. After such, we are given the ability to Repent. The third Work is the gift of the Holy Spirit. And, for those [before] Christ, the final capstone of Christ's Work is to become the final Sacrifice which pays the debt for all sin.

For us [after] the Death of Christ, it seems that we receive these things nearly all at once. However, I do see that it is possible that the Curse of the Lord could be removed, thus being granted the ability to repent, but the Indwelling Holy Spirit [could] come at a later time. Then again [now that I think of it] if we are made right with God by believing in the Power of the Resurrection, it seems that we would be given the Spirit to teach, lead, and guide.

I love this mysterious Bible!
Matthew 4:17 (NKJV)
17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

There is the first repentance that takes place as we accept Jesus as our Savior for the sin we can not settle.

Repentance simply means a change of the mind. So naturally to produce fruit and to move from glory to glory, we are continually in renewal of the mind.

2 Corinthians 3:18
New Revised Standard Version

18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.


Romans 12:2 Esv
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

A person who is unwilling to renounce continuing, conscious, serious sin may not be a genuine believer.) The second reason is to maintain a close relationship with their Father in heaven.
 

Pilgrimshope

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I see nothing wrong with that view, I certainly wouldn't disagree!

I see him as contrasting the things of God to the things of man.

For example when he says "for all flesh is a grass and all the glory of man as the flower of grass" he is referring to the temporal glory of man.

Then in vs. 25 he says "but the Word of the Lord endures forever."

This goes back to may original statement that he was expressing the contrast of being born-again not being of man which will perish, but being born-again of God through His word that teaches us salvation and endures forever.

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.
actually brother he’s quoting prophecy from Isaiah about the gospel showing us it’s been fulfilled so Isaiah prophecies this of the gospel about 700 years before chrirts birth

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:3-11‬ ‭

so Peter later is witnessing that Christ had come and fulfilled the prophecy and spoken the word of God that stands forever

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then you think back to what Jesus had said

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and reflect on what Moses had said long before

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Bible always works that way you have the prophets foretelling beforehand about Christ and the gospel then you have the gospel fulfilling those prophecies and then the epistles are witnessing of Christs kingdom and foretelling his second coming .

Peter and Paul’s doctrine and johns is always rooted in prophecy almost every time Peter was announcing that the prophecy of Gods eternal word being spoken had come and Christs words would stand forever

There’s a very cohesive message if we go from prophecy to the gospel to the epistles . Like a foundation and then a house built upon it the old is foretelling what came to pass in the gospel and the epistles are witnessing the truth of it and foretelling the second coming

Another short example of this

“But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s before the gospel and this is after

“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬


God is telling us about Jesus all the way through in the ot it’s a prophetic word the gospel is fulfilling the ot prophetic word and the epistles are witnessing that it has come to Pass and foretelling more ahead regarding his return

revelation comes directly from what’s written beforehand for instance Paul’s message was always written beforehand he just began understanding it

“Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Bible explains itself it’s one message being revealed slowly more and more through time until we see Jesus our Lord
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Matthew 4:17 (NKJV)
17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

There is the first repentance that takes place as we accept Jesus as our Savior for the sin we can not settle.

Repentance simply means a change of the mind. So naturally to produce fruit and to move from glory to glory, we are continually in renewal of the mind.

2 Corinthians 3:18
New Revised Standard Version

18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit.


Romans 12:2 Esv
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

A person who is unwilling to renounce continuing, conscious, serious sin may not be a genuine believer.) The second reason is to maintain a close relationship with their Father in heaven.
I see. Well, I am not in a continual process of changing of my mind. The laws of God have been written upon my heart, thus I am always in agreement with them. Also, I don't sin much in my elderly years, therefore, I do not live in a continual state of Repentance. I have never turned away from God. All things that I do, say, and think, they are all before God, for I can never escape Him and His awareness. I have True Fear of the Lord.

Psalm 119:167 NLT - "I have obeyed your laws, for I love them very much."
 
Dec 9, 2011
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In Christ, He accepts and loves us completely just as we are...though He loves us too much to leave us here!
I agree 100% but I'm not sure what you are saying concerning the original post..
 

Roughsoul1991

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Sep 17, 2016
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I see. Well, I am not in a continual process of changing of my mind. The laws of God have been written upon my heart, thus I am always in agreement with them. Also, I don't sin much in my elderly years, therefore, I do not live in a continual state of Repentance. I have never turned away from God. All things that I do, say, and think, they are all before God, for I can never escape Him and His awareness. I have True Fear of the Lord.

Psalm 119:167 NLT - "I have obeyed your laws, for I love them very much."
We are never beyond learning, improving, or renewing. The scriptures do not expire at a certain age. But that is the goal of old age to become a seasoned saint in thd eyes of God. Only upon death or Christ returns shall we be glorified and no longer have the flesh that is restrained in the fallen world.

A continual state of repentance is different for everyone. A new Christian it may be every hour, every few hours, every day. For a mature Christian it may be every few days or during times of exhaustion, hunger, or anger. A seasoned grey sage may handle exhuastion, hunger, or anger in a more mature way to not fall into sin. But even our thoughts can cause sin, our fears, and how we may not love or forgive our neighbors or enemies. The written law and law of morality is extensive and no man could keep it fully except Christ. Meaning we all no matter of age are still a work in progress.

Philippians 1:6

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.​
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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The Sinful Nature is replaced by the Divine Nature
Not exactly. The divine nature cannot (and must not) be dominated by the sin nature (the flesh). But the flesh is still there until Christ perfects the saint. How do we know that the flesh has not been eradicated (totally removed)? Here is the Scripture: For the flesh lusteth against [HAS DESIRES OPPOSED TO] the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other [AT WAR WITH ONE ANOTHER]: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (Gal 5:17)

So what is Paul describing?

1. The flesh is still there along with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

2. The flesh pulls the Christian towards sinful desires, while the Holy Spirit pulls him or her in the opposite direction.

3. As a result sometimes the Christian does not do the things that he would prefer to do (by yielding to the flesh).

4. However, Paul also said this in Romans: "Sin shall not have dominion over you", and "Mortify or crucify the flesh" and then "walk in the Spirit".
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Not exactly. The divine nature cannot (and must not) be dominated by the sin nature (the flesh). But the flesh is still there until Christ perfects the saint. How do we know that the flesh has not been eradicated (totally removed)? Here is the Scripture: For the flesh lusteth against [HAS DESIRES OPPOSED TO] the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other [AT WAR WITH ONE ANOTHER]: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. (Gal 5:17)

So what is Paul describing?

1. The flesh is still there along with the indwelling Holy Spirit.

2. The flesh pulls the Christian towards sinful desires, while the Holy Spirit pulls him or her in the opposite direction.

3. As a result sometimes the Christian does not do the things that he would prefer to do (by yielding to the flesh).

4. However, Paul also said this in Romans: "Sin shall not have dominion over you", and "Mortify or crucify the flesh" and then "walk in the Spirit".
amen

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-26‬ ‭

We can always be tempted in the flesh but we can learn to overcome and walk upright by the spirit and grace of the gospel if we are willing to hear and believe

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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We are never beyond learning, improving, or renewing.
I mean no offense to you, but I don't understand your post. The above is a prime example. We were talking about repentance, not learning, improving, or renewing.

And, I wasn't referring to law written upon tablets of stone, but the tablet of my heart.

Romans 8:2 KJV - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

2 Corinthians 3:3 KJV - "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Cheers
 

Roughsoul1991

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Sep 17, 2016
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I mean no offense to you, but I don't understand your post. The above is a prime example. We were talking about repentance, not learning, improving, or renewing.

And, I wasn't referring to law written upon tablets of stone, but the tablet of my heart.

Romans 8:2 KJV - "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

2 Corinthians 3:3 KJV - "Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Cheers
We are never beyond learning, improving, or renewing.

I mean no offense to you, but I don't understand your post. The above is a prime example. We were talking about repentance, not learning, improving, or renewing.
Repent definition:
to change one's mind or purpose.

It simply means we are always learning, improving, and renewing the mind to be more like Jesus.
 

Gardenias

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According to what you have said about the sin nature being eradicated and replaced by the divine nature,which in part is true you are not receiving full understanding.

Those that are trying to show you that even Paul was in a constant battle with the flesh you snark at in artificial sweetness.

Our HEARTS have been circumcised to be of a divine nature but the sin nature remains and won't be removed completely until we are glorified!

Remember how the discussions with Job went,then you learned something!
A haughty spirit goes before a FALL.

Not to change your view but to ask that you listen and go deeper and grow thereby.

We must edify one another in an humble spirit of gaining knowledge to use with wisdom. To receive edification you must be open to hearing.

You have a lot knowledge from the scriptures,turn it into wisdom!

We are NEVER done being able to be taught

Blessings brother.
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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According to what you have said about the sin nature being eradicated and replaced by the divine nature,which in part is true you are not receiving full understanding.

Those that are trying to show you that even Paul was in a constant battle with the flesh you snark at in artificial sweetness.

Our HEARTS have been circumcised to be of a divine nature but the sin nature remains and won't be removed completely until we are glorified!

Remember how the discussions with Job went,then you learned something!
A haughty spirit goes before a FALL.

Not to change your view but to ask that you listen and go deeper and grow thereby.

We must edify one another in an humble spirit of gaining knowledge to use with wisdom. To receive edification you must be open to hearing.

You have a lot knowledge from the scriptures,turn it into wisdom!

We are NEVER done being able to be taught

Blessings brother.
Perplexing. I copied and pasted Scripture, yet Scripture is denied, not myself. It's as if looking at a blue sky at 1pm in the afternoon, yet turn to a person and they say it's actually cloudy and 1am in the morning.
 

Gardenias

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Perplexing. I copied and pasted Scripture, yet Scripture is denied, not myself. It's as if looking at a blue sky at 1pm in the afternoon, yet turn to a person and they say it's actually cloudy and 1am in the morning.

It's not the scripture but your interpretation of it.
Its also not a personal attack,lest I pray not.
You know a lot but we ALL can be taught. Renew your mind daily not thinking you know exactly what is being said.
We may not all agree but we must always love the brethren.

I'll leave you to the Spirit to be taught by him.

In Christ
Gardenias
 

2ndTimothyGroup

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It's not the scripture but your interpretation of it.
Its also not a personal attack,lest I pray not.
You know a lot but we ALL can be taught. Renew your mind daily not thinking you know exactly what is being said.
We may not all agree but we must always love the brethren.

I'll leave you to the Spirit to be taught by him.

In Christ
Gardenias
I think I see where the confusion rests. I am specifically referring to my post #84, and not those afterward.

"I'll leave you to the Spirit to be taught by him."

And how is the above not "snarky"?

"We may not all agree but we must always love the brethren."

And again, you are insinuating that I do not love the Brethren.