How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[lamad]

Paul did not invent the rapture or receive a separate message about the rapture outside of what Christ revealed.

Christ revealed that after the tribulation He would return (Matt. 24:29) and Paul described after the tribulation Christ would return (2 Thess. 2:1-3, 8)

Christ said He would have a trumpet call just at or before the rapture (Matt. 24:31) and Paul said Christ would have a trumpet call just at or before the rapture (1 Thess. 4:16, 1 Cor. 15:52)

Jesus said the elect would be gathered (Matt. 24:31) and Paul said the elect would be gathered (2 Thess. 2:1,1 Thess. 4:17)

Why do you insist that the post-trib rapture that Christ described and that Paul agrees with aren't the same event despite overwhelming evidence presented to you?

We can also go into how Christ and Paul agree that the first resurrection is post-trib as well in later posts.

That is the very point we are disagreeing on!

Where you miss it: Paul declared that it was a mystery: before God revealed to Paul that those who were alive and in Christ would be caught up and changed. That means NO ONE ELSE KNEW that. Most of them knew that at some time the dead would be resurrected. But they did not know when. It seems many today still don't know when. I think Paul made it clear that it would come BEFORE wrath. Some here try to place is after the trib which would be after wrath. Others (not on this thread) have gone so far as to divide wrath from wrath: as if God got angry, got over it, then got angry again. Others have gone so far as to MOVE God's wrath to after Jesus descends. That theory requires a total rearranging of Revelation, proving it is false.

"overwhelming evidence " Ha ha ha! You really made my day with that statement! Let's see:
His coming on white horses in one place, but no white horses in the other...
His coming after the trib in one place, but coming before wrath in the other...
His coming FOR the saints in one place, but coming WITH the saints in another...
His coming with ONE archangel in one place, but coming with MANY angels in another...
The gathering (of who or what is not given) done by angels in one place, but by the power of the Holy Spirit in another place.

Your overwhelming evidence is that both instances include the words "gather" and "trumpet."

The truth, my friend, is that the overwhelming evidence is these are SEPARATE events.

Paul described after the tribulation Christ would return (2 Thess. 2:1-3, 8) That is a very ambiguous passage since the Greek texts do not agree and there is much disagreement as to the meaning.

 

[lamad]

By your patient endurance you will gain your souls. Luke 21:19

Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain. You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Do not [grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door! My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment.
James 5:7-12

Why then, in light of these scriptures, do frequently accuse us of lying?

 

[lamad]

And - I will suggest that Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible is the best source of 'Greek expert' [definition] information available to us today. (Other than a good Lexicon, of course.)

Hmmm. Do you know what he imagined for the BOW in the hand of the rider at the first seal? The Greek word is TOXON from which we get our English word toxic, meaning deadly. Toxon all through the Greek Septuagint was used for the Bow that shoots arrows.
But STrong imagined it was a bow as is tied around a Christmas present made of simple fabric!

 

[lamad]

Either way, Paul didn't used neither word in the verse being discussed despite pre-tribs attempt to suggest he had. I guess those who wrote the Greek manuscripts were also "fibbers".

Yet, several of the earlier translators, before the KJV, translated apostasia as "departing." They were not influenced by the KJV.

 

[peldom10]

I am still waiting for a solid verse that truly proves a posttrib rapture. It seems you have given it your best shot.

You will not find one...there is no post trib. rapture. You notice NO ONE has given scriptural support....because there is none.

We see this time and time again...the new age religion types tryng to cause us to stray from God's word.

 

[lamad]

It was given to you numerous times why are you rejecting it???

Matthew ch24 , 1 Thess , 2 Thess , 1 John 2:18-19 , 1 Timothy 4:1 , the Prophets Noah , Daniel and Job , James ch5 , Revelation

Daniel chapter 7 & Revelation 12
Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely,
that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12

And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Daniel and Revelation CLEARLY says the SAME twice = CLEAR as DAY

The Prophet Daniel, the words of the LORD Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are the source of Paul's Letters to Thessolinica.

#1. No Coming of the LORD until the man of sin is revealed = 2 Thess ch2

#2. The Antichrist is Coming and the Departure from the Faith/Truth 1 John 2:18-19 , 2 Thess ch2 1 Timothy 4:1

#3. 1 Thessalonians 3:1-5 = Paul says "we are destined/appointed to this = Matthew ch24

#4. Matthew ch24 and Luke ch21 Revelation chapters 1- 20 AFTER the Tribulation will the LORD Come for His Elect

#5. Prophet Job , James ch5 - PATIENCE while waiting for the LORD's Coming under GREAT SUFFERING and TRIBULATION

Luke 21:19 By your patience possess your souls.

Revelation 13:9-10 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It was given to you numerous times why are you rejecting it??? Matthew ch24 As we have pointed out again and again, just pointing to a coming and a gathering is NO PROOF it is Paul's coming and gathering. To be proof, you must show scripture that clearly shows us they are the same. Here are some differences:
Your theory:
It tries to force two more comings into one, like trying to force a round peg into a square hole. WHAM! BANG!
It tries to force a coming on white horses with a coming without horses.
It tries to force a coming before wrath with a coming after wrath.
It tries to force a coming before the DAY with a coming while the DAY continues.
It can never, ever, explain how the church is going to get to its own marriage and supper.
It steals the sheep from the sheep and goat judgment.
It may well end up causing many to be left behind.
It can never be proven with a good exegesis of scripture.
It tries to force a coming FOR His Bride into a coming WITH His bride - making it
A theory that is both coming and going.
It requires vast amounts of imagination for those that accept it.
It cannot see a difference in a coming to the air, and an coming with a touchdown.
It cannot see a difference in a coming to fetch His bride to the homes He has prepared, with a coming to WAR.

There is no need to cover the rest of your scriptures: they are of the same kind..taking much imagination to see your point.

 

[lamad]

I assume we're talking about 2 Thess. 2:1-3 here. Yes, it's solid post-trib rapture beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I have seen pre-tribbers fiddle with apostasia to try to make it mean something else and it still doesn't work.

Another tool in your belt is that changing the meaning of apostasia doesn't actually help the pre-trib rapture because in the context Jesus doesn't return until the man of sin is already in God's temple claiming himself to be God. Jesus "shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Jesus shows up to destroy the anti-Christ, one of the main antagonists of the great tribulation. Boom. There you go. No matter how they want to spin it, pre-trib doesn't fit the context. At some point, and I hate to admit it because I love to see the good in people and assume the best, but not every Bible scholar has honest motives in these forums.

Please explain where you find the gathering in this passage, other than in the theme of the passage.

 

[lamad]

lol, you can't even see that you have disproven your whole "apo is the rapture" by posting a word that means stationary and not moving. Talk about cherry picking!

The fact is Paul did not use Apo or Stasia in 2nd Thess. He used Apostasia which means Apostasy or defection from the truth.

I am quite sure that Paul knew Koine Greek better than anyone today.

 

[walknlight]

Hey!

I am quite sure that Paul knew Koine Greek better than anyone today.

And there are several other words or phrases he (Paul by the Spirit) could of used...but he did not...along with the others, with the Spirit.....
To add...

You are correct( and the others who have ointed this out) , it is a phrase... a compound word in the Greek...
a falling away G646 (one compound word)

Koine Greek is precise, not like English...forces one to study.....

What an amazing Author....

God Bless!!!!

 

[DavidTree]

Please explain where you find the gathering in this passage, other than in the theme of the passage.

lol

 

[DavidTree]

Hey!

And there are several other words or phrases he (Paul by the Spirit) could of used...but he did not...along with the others, with the Spirit.....
To add...

You are correct , it is a phrase... a compound word in the Greek...
a falling away G646 (one compound word)

Koine Greek is precise, not like English...forces one to study.....

What an amazing Author....

God Bless!!!!

lol

 

[lamad]

And, here is where the error occurs...

Start with the actual word in scripture and trace it to its component parts through a good lexicon - you will STILL get 'apostasy'.

If you don't, may I suggest that either your lexicon or your skills in using it are lacking...

According to my lexicon, the actual word in scripture is not derived from the two words you want to put together. (Which seems weird, I know - considering the spelling...)

Nonetheless, the derivation of the word in scripture does not come from those two words.

It comes from one of the words and a similar-but-not-the-same word as the other.

You STILL end up with 'apostasy'.

You are 'cherry-picking' to come up with your own definition.

Be honest with yourself and start with the actual word in scripture - and then stay on track...

Stop trying to build-your-own-word from component words.

Sometimes - it simply does not work that way - no matter how much you want it to...

'mailbox' is easy:

mail (correspondence) + box (container)

mailbox = correspondence container

How about this one...?

poppy (a type of flower) + cock (rooster)

poppycock =

As 'precise' as Greek is, there may exist a historical cultural contextual variation on [certain specific] word combinations - in a similar fashion as in English.

Otherwise, we would have a great big 'word component' chart - from which we could put together every possible greek word.

It just doesn't work that way.

Words are derived based on many factors and variations that are over-and-beyond simple spelling, grammar structure, and root-word definitions.

apostasia (Key)
Pronunciation
ap-os-tas-ee'-ah

Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Feminine of the same as ἀποστάσιον (G647)

Note the last line: it is a feminine of the same:

apostasion (Key)
Pronunciation
ap-os-tas'-ee-on

Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
Neuter of a (presumed) adj. from a derivative of ἀφίστημι (G868)

Strong's is tracing where this word came from.

aphistēmi (Key)
Pronunciation
af-is'-tay-mee

Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From ἀπό (G575) and ἵστημι (G2476)

Dr. Thomas Ice
"THE MEANING OF APOSTASIA The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, “that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses.” The word is a Greek compound of apo “ from” and istemi “stand.” Thus, it has the core meaning of “away from” or “departure.” The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as “defection, revolt;” then secondly as “departure, disappearance.”1 Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure "

Food for Hungry Christians:
"
The Greek word "Apostasia" is a compound of two Greek words: "Apo" = "to move away", "stasis" means "standing or state", or "to stand".

Literally, from its basic definition, "apostasia" means "to go away from", or "depart", or "change state or standing from one state to another".

"Apostasia" was used in extra Biblical Greek literature to describe political revolt, or a "going away from the establishment" and in the Septuagint, or Greek Old Testament, when the Jews would "go away" from God to worship other gods.

"Apostasia" is only used one other time in the New Testament, in Acts 21:21 to describe "forsaking", or "going away from" the teachings of Moses.

"Apostasion", the noun form, appears in Matt 5:31, & 19:7, and Mark 10:4 where it describes a "writing of divorcement", or "papers that separate". (Again, so someone can go away).

"Apostasia" literally then means "to depart, or go away from", and to "go away from what" must be determined from the context."

Something to note: "there is not one single verse in either First or Second Thessalonians devoted to the subject of spiritual apostasy. Not one. " I would add, unless Paul's intent here was a departing from the truth or from the church or from God.

"In both the original Greek and Jerome’s Latin Vulgate, there is a definite article in front of the noun “apostasy” or “apostasia.” Why is this important? This definite article denotes a specific, time-bound event, not a process. For example, “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition.” (NKJV) In the Greek it is “hee apostasia” and this strongly suggests this cannot be a process or form of general apostasy in Christendom, by context, it is a singular event.

In other words, an instantaneous manifestation or singular event does not fit well with the notion of a spiritual deterioration, which typically requires more time to transpire. It points instead to a physical departure."

"
The Greek noun apostasia is a compound word, meaning it is derived by combining two previously existing words. The first word is the Greek preposition apo which means “away from” and histēmi which means “to stand.” Thus, apostasia means “to stand away from” or “to depart.”

In 2nd Thessalonians 2:3 we read “the apostasia” as a singular event. There is nothing named that you are departing from. Thus, context relegates its usage to a spatial event and not a doctrinal departure. It denotes a physical departure or a disappearance."
https://teachingforsotzambia.com/2020/07/22/does-the-apostle-paul-write-about-a-departure/

"However, there is an entirely different view on this topic. According to the second view, the apostasia is not a spiritual departure but rather represents a physical or spatial departure. If this latter view is accurate, Paul’s simple point to the Thessalonian believers is that they could not possibly be in the Tribulation period because your physical departure, or the pretribulation rapture that I have already taught you about, has not yet transpired. "
". The definite article also before the apostasia indicates that in the same way the apostasia will also take place instantaneously. Such an instantaneous manifestation does not fit well with the notion of a spiritual departure, which typically transpires gradually over an elongated process. Spiritual departures are not instantaneous events. "
"The Greek noun apostasia is a compound word, which means that it is a word that is created by combining two previously existing words. The first word is the Greek preposition apo, which means “away from.” The second word is the Greek verb histēmi, which means, “to stand.” Thus, apostasia simply means to “to stand away from” or “to depart.” "
https://deanbible.org/dbmfiles/notes/2018-ChaferConf-10-Woods-Paper.pdf

I could find countless more. I am not the only one who reads this passage as the departing of the church.

 

[lamad]

Hey!

And there are several other words or phrases he (Paul by the Spirit) could of used...but he did not...along with the others, with the Spirit.....
To add...

You are correct( and the others who have ointed this out) , it is a phrase... a compound word in the Greek...
a falling away G646 (one compound word)

Koine Greek is precise, not like English...forces one to study.....

What an amazing Author....

God Bless!!!!

This is probably one of the passages by Paul that Peter had in mind when He said Paul wrote things hard to understand.

 

[DavidTree]

It was given to you numerous times why are you rejecting it??? Matthew ch24 As we have pointed out again and again, just pointing to a coming and a gathering is NO PROOF it is Paul's coming and gathering. To be proof, you must show scripture that clearly shows us they are the same. Here are some differences:
Your theory:
It tries to force two more comings into one, like trying to force a round peg into a square hole. WHAM! BANG!
It tries to force a coming on white horses with a coming without horses.
It tries to force a coming before wrath with a coming after wrath.
It tries to force a coming before the DAY with a coming while the DAY continues.
It can never, ever, explain how the church is going to get to its own marriage and supper.
It steals the sheep from the sheep and goat judgment.
It may well end up causing many to be left behind.
It can never be proven with a good exegesis of scripture.
It tries to force a coming FOR His Bride into a coming WITH His bride - making it
A theory that is both coming and going.
It requires vast amounts of imagination for those that accept it.
It cannot see a difference in a coming to the air, and an coming with a touchdown.
It cannot see a difference in a coming to fetch His bride to the homes He has prepared, with a coming to WAR.

There is no need to cover the rest of your scriptures: they are of the same kind..taking much imagination to see your point.

carnal intellectual reliance = rebellious/unbelieving heart = man-made doctrine = doctrines of demons

 

[Absolutely]

I have the Holy Spirit inside as the seal and guarantee of an eternity with God in heaven, and the Holy Spirit upon me as the anointing. That means I received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of praying in tongues. I suspect you disobeyed God and chose to skip the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

The Post-trib rapture is a cunningly devised fable - not found anywhere in scripture.
It tries to force two more comings into one, like trying to force a round peg into a square hole. WHAM! BANG!
It tries to force a coming on white horses with a coming without horses.
It tries to force a coming before wrath with a coming after wrath.
It tries to force a coming before the DAY with a coming while the DAY continues.
It can never, ever, explain how the church is going to get the its own marriage and supper.
It steals the sheep from the sheep and goat judgment.
It may well end up causing many to be left behind.
It can never be proven with a good exegesis of scripture.
It tries to force a coming FOR His Bride into a coming WITH His bride - making it a theory that is both coming and going.
It requires vast amounts of imagination for those that accept it.
It cannot see a difference in a coming to the air, and an coming with a touchdown.

It's obvious you will do anything to avoid what the Greek word means. Your whole post is blatant nonsense and ignorant of the Greek language.

Apostasia is Apostasy and if you want to do that, you will. You are well on the Apostasia road. When you arrive there, you won't be able to blame those who warned you.

I can go along so far with the "falling from the faith" dynamic.

My recent discovery of "revealed" actually has me leaning toward the literal " departed" for this reason;

" revealed" is used 3 times in those "apostacy" verses of 2 thes that postribs park in.

We have something happening 3 times nefore the ac is REVEALED.( not yet in power...ONLY REVEALED)

WHAT IS that something that must precede the revealing of the AC?
I am saying ....what is it that must precede?
If I am a post-trip adherent then it cannot be the same thing. It has to be at least two separate things that precede the revealing of the AC.

I see that as a huge dilemma for the post trib Doctrine. Because now you need at least two of the three be talkin about separate happenings

 

[Absolutely]

2 thes 2;3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

Do you realize that" revealed" is used three times in those verses? Revealed revealed revealed. You say it is"something added" then the ac is revealed

We have in the verses ;
Taken then revealed
Then
Taken and revealed
Then
Taken and revealed.

So in your position, you are saying "something is added"
Then the ac is revealed.

But the bible insists " something is removed"

Hmmmmmmmm

If i am reading that correctly the removal of an item must happen before the REVEALING ( NOT INSTALLED..ONLY REVEALED) Of the AC.

Any postribber want to challenge that?

 

[Absolutely]

You will not find one...there is no post trib. rapture. You notice NO ONE has given scriptural support....because there is none.

We see this time and time again...the new age religion types tryng to cause us to stray from God's word.

Lol

They really thought they had one in luke ( ....from the uttrmost part of heaven to the uttermost part of earth)

But lo....they ommitted from the 4 winds.

That is heaven...not earth.

And the "uttermost part of earth is her atmosphere"

So EVERY SINGLE VERSE of theirs is a mis-interpreted train wreck.
EVERY VERSE.

They are standing in ashes and are oblivious.

 

[Absolutely]

Now i am forcing them to frame "revealed" outside of Gods word.

Lol

 

[Absolutely]

Any postrib superior doctrine adherents want to teach me what the other 2 dynamics are referring to In 2thes 2 concerning conditions for the revealing of AC?

One condition declared 3 times.

Not met = no revealing

 

[Absolutely]

What has to happen immediately prior to ac revealed?

It says " taken out of the way"

What is taken out of the way?

Waiting on postribber experts for the real interpretation