Misconceptions

wattie · Nov 19, 2021

CS1 said:

God has never stopped moving in holy men. it was holy men who sought the Lord and the leading of the Holy Spirit to have an understanding of what scriptures are authoritative and absolutely the word of God.

What makes the scriptures inspired? Very simple, the thin thread that run's through Genesis to Revelation. The Person Jesus Christ.

His words are the foundation on which ALL scripture rest, both Old and New Testament The Eye Witnesses of the Resurrected Lord. and the Comfriming of the Resrurrrected Lord by Signs & wonders through the people of God as it was then and today. We are not to worship the bible, we are supposed to live the word of God by Faith.

The canonization of the Bible is done by God through man but it was God who guided this. The same Holy Spirit in the world today is still working as HE did before. Yet, we apply in our lives the word of God written thousands of years ago and see the same results; if you are not, that is in no way meaning it is not so. Because the word of God still does what it did then. The false narrative that God doesn't heal or empower with the Holy Spirit because one has not experienced or witnessed it, is like saying Jesus was not raised from the dead because I did not see it.

Yea I'm not saying God stopped moving in holy men of God full stop...but did stop at inspiration for the scriptures.

wattie · Nov 19, 2021

Nehemiah6 said:

True, true.. well there are others who would have similar findings

TheLearner · Nov 19, 2021

Vindicator said:

What car wash is that?

Funny Car Wash Company Names
Outside the Box Car Wash.
BYOB (Bring Your Own Bucket) Car Wash. What is this? Report Ad.
Tangerine Tango Car Wash.
Your World Blown Away Auto Wash.
The Bubbles Bath & Body Wash Bar.
The Buckin Bronco Car Wash.
Sparkle and Shine Mobile Carwash.
Bubble-licious Car Wash.

TheLearner · Nov 19, 2021

TheLearner · Nov 19, 2021

I came across some Quakers by their inner light were New Agers.

Vindicator · Nov 19, 2021

TheLearner said:

I take it these two have been through the Your World Blown Away Car Wash, and lived to tell the tale...

Alas, the evils we visit upon ourselves.

TheLearner · Nov 20, 2021

wattie · Nov 21, 2021

In regards to 1 Corinthians 13 and calling the perfect as the completed revelation of Gods Word in the canon..

Reasoning purely from this chapter isn't enough for this to hold water, but together with the experience of modern tongues being quite different to what was experienced in the early churches and similarly with what a biblical miracle is compared to what it is interpreted to be now among some circles..

Plus with the death of the apostles, it becomes evident the sign gifts have passed.

I like this kind of reasoning from the likes of R.C. Sproul.

The 1 Corinthians 13 chapter isn't conclusive but other scripture and historical experience is conclusive on this.

CS1 · Nov 22, 2021

wattie said:

You can place the secular humanistic term "modern tongues" in that same location as the idea of 1cor 13:8-10 meaning the Bible. You said :

"The 1 Corinthians 13 chapter isn't conclusive but other scripture and historical experience is conclusive on this"

Prove it. None of you have been able to make that connection. You allegorize the word of God, a few verses in the Old Testament, and try to tie 1cor 13:8-10 with it. The context of 1cor 13:8-10 has nothing to do with the canonization. That is bad hermeneutics.

So trying to use other text with 1cor 13:8-10 will not work. IF you are going to say "but other scripture and historical experience is conclusive on this" not at the expense of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit that has not ended.

CS1 · Nov 22, 2021

there are two big errors here

1. those who worship knowledge

2. Those who worship the gifts of the Holy Spirit

Those who worship knowledge use human rationale and reasoning to understand the supernature things of the Holy Spirit. They will even use science to discredit a move of God that was recorded in the bible of the very canon.

many liberal theologians attack those who not only speak in tongues but:

call homosexuality sin
the red Sea crossing happen split down the middle. it was the sea of reeds a marsh area that had a super minus tide or something like that
Noah flood
The ferry furnace of the three Hebrew children
the stopping of time
even the death and resurrection of the Lord.

They know better because they have studied and understood. Many of these liberal theologians who use to be conservative now believe the bible contains the word of God but is NOT the word of God. These educated ones will tell you what is canon and what is not. They have become just like the RCC who they scoff at for doing the same thing. Hypocrites!

Now to my Charmatics and Pentacostel brother and sister.

many worship the Gifts of the Holy Spirit instead of the one who gives them. Many stood by and did not speak out against the FOOLISHNESS.

barking like a dog
slain in the spirit with a jacket or bad breath
seek gold teeth and dust like a damnable Tinker ball or fairy.
seeking angel visitation saying unbiblical and using the gifts of the Holy Spirit to make money! I think I just heard the censessionist Shout amen!
Prophesying and saying "Thus saith the Lord" WHEN IT IS NOT the Lord saying it.
no correcting the foolishness or instruction on the proper use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. We do not have a spirit of out of control we have the Fruit of the Spirit-Self-control!!!!! wake up!!!! speak up, Lookup, because soon we are all Going UP!

Both of these groups have hurt the body of Christ. Both will answer for it.

CS1 · Nov 22, 2021

wattie said:

prove it! in the word of God

CS1 · Nov 22, 2021

wattie said:

R.C. Sproul is wrong. I have listened to his educated explanation and it is so ridiculous. He too now is suggesting man tell us what is canonized? Yes, it is that "kind of reasoning" that does appeal to the human intellect.

Yes those like him still try to use 1cor 13:8-10 to make it stick as meaning the canonization of the word of God. FYI the first 5 books were given by God through Moses and were seen as the word of God before 200 and 400 BC of the Old Testament. the New was completed in the 4th century.

Because the Scriptures are “God-breathed”—not humanly contrived myths and folklore—Christ made it clear that everyone is to live by them. When tempted by Satan the devil, Jesus emphatically stated that man was to live by “every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God”(Matt. 4:4)

"The nineteenth-century German scholar Theodor Zahn—in his two-volume work Geschichte des neutestamentlichen Kanons (1888-1892) and Grundriss der Geschichte des neutestamentlichen Kanons (1904)—also concluded that the canonization of the New Testament was set by the end of the first century. Harry Y. Gamble wrote this summary: “Zahn’s massive study of the history of the canon … argued that there was already a canon of Christian Scriptures by about the end of the first century (80-110 AD) (A Faithful Version)"

IF the understanding of those who say " that which is perfect has come " meaning the Canon " then the gifts should have stopped at that Time Unless Those think God was saying through Paul something that HE God did not mean through the Holy Spirit..

Hmmm, those of History did anything supernature in the church happen during that times frame that would prove that the Gift of the Holy Spirit stopped including tongues?
That right !! post Canonization we have what is known as the Persecuted age of the church. They had the word of God and the empowering of the Holy Spirit. Well documented as the Apostle John was boiled in oil then sent into obscurity.
The Roman Persecution of Christians
During the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. By the 3rd and 4th centuries AD, the Christian community had begun to grow substantially, and with this growth came notoriety. A number of Roman emperors began to oppress the Christian faith more directly. For example, the Emperor Decius proclaimed in 250 AD Christians were obstinate in their non-compliance and some church leaders were arrested, tried, and executed such as Fabian, the bishop of Rome.

The persecution of Christians culminated in the great persecution under the reign of Emperor Diocletian. In a series of edicts starting in 303 AD, Diocletian banned Christians from serving in the army, imprisoned many Christian bishops and priests, ordered the destruction of Christian scriptures( the canon of the New Testament), and places of worship, and prohibited Christians from assembling for worship.

The Holy Spirit was never from the church at this time. Miracles, healing, and pouring out of the Holy Spirit were still happening during this great Persecution of the church. AS we have the word of God as they did The Holy Spirit is still doing for us what HE did for them.

SophieT · Nov 22, 2021

wattie said:

so you conclude with 'you do not believe tongues exist today because you have no experience with them'

you conclude your disbelief on such an important matter by stating I Corinthians 13 does not provide ample proof of your stance. but that. in conjunction with all the people who still speak and pray in tongues today, have given you the proof you need to dismiss all sign gifts

you determine how the Holy Spirit works among believers today, by a yardstick you personally invented

the only actual conclusive item you can present with truth, is the fact that you have decided something for yourself that does not bear witness to those who know better

Vindicator · Nov 22, 2021

CS1 said:

You know what's also interesting about this passage? It is followed in the next verses with language straight out of the Old Testament which confirms Paul was still talking about the gifts in Chapter 13. This is obvious from how the Chapter starts, but also in relation to the language he uses in v.12, which parallel Numbers 12:5-8 on the subject of prophesying through the interpretation of visions and dreams.

I did a piece on it last year. Let me go see if I can find it... Here. This is copied and pasted from April, 2020 at CB:

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly (literally "in an enigma"), but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).

Paul was here making use of Numbers 12, where it states, "Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent, and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, He said, 'Listen to My words. When there is a prophet among you, I the Lord reveal Myself to him in visions. I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of My servant Moses. He is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face clearly, and not in enigmas. He sees the [very] form of the Lord. Why, then, were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:5-8 ).

Paul used these exact same expressions to make the same comparison; of God speaking "face to face" (πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον) verses Him speaking to His prophets "in enigmas" (ἐν αἰνίγματι). An enigma is what a prophetic dream or vision is like. It is a riddle, which is why some translations read, "For now we see through a glass in obscurity (or in riddles)." Throughout ancient Greek, the word αίνιγμα is almost invariably translated into English as "dark sayings, riddles," hence the translations, "seeing through a glass darkly." In ancient times, glass was not nearly as refined as it is now. You could see through it a little, but the image was often very blurry and "dark," thus it took perception to discern what you were actually looking at through it. This parallels what it is like to interpret prophetic dreams and visions. They are like riddles, and take spiritual discernment to make out.

This is what the New Testament Christians were doing because Paul specifically used the words, "For now WE see through a glass darkly (present tense)." He was saying that when they got to Heaven, they would see God face to face just like Moses did. But at the present time they were still seeing through a glass darkly, or literally "in enigmas." It means that the New Testament prophets were still operating in prophecy by interpreting prophetic dreams and visions just like the Old Testament prophets did.

The surrounding context of 1st Corinthians all the more bears this out. In 1 Corinthians 12:31, Paul was urging them to seek the greater gifts, but then began showing them a better way to operate in them; in love for others. Our love for our brothers and sisters in Christ will remain even when we are finally in Heaven, when prophecy is no longer needed. But then he adds this, "[So] pursue love, and be zealous for spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophecy, for the one speaking in a tongues speaks not to men but to God... but the one prophesying speaks unto men for edification" (1 Corinthians 14:1-3). In other words, pray that God gives you the ability to prophecy so you can be of more benefit to others, and minister to them more in love.

Thus, Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of operating in tongues and prophecy, and point out how prophecy is superior, being the greater gift, because it brings greater edification to the saints. But until we get to Heaven, Biblical prophecy has always been and will always be a practice that involves interpreting dreams and visions, because we still presently "see through a glass darkly," i.e. in enigmas and in "riddles."

CS1 · Nov 22, 2021

Vindicator said:

You know what's also interesting about this passage? It is followed in the next verses with language straight out of the Old Testament which confirms Paul was still talking about the gifts in Chapter 13. This is obvious from how the Chapter starts, but also in relation to the language he uses in v.12, which parallel Numbers 12:5-8 on the subject of prophesying through the interpretation of visions and dreams.

I did a piece on it last year. Let me go see if I can find it... Here. This is copied and pasted from April, 2020 at CB:

In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul stated the following: "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect comes, that which is in part will be set aside... for now we see through a glass darkly (literally "in an enigma"), but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know even as I have been known" (1 Corinthians 13:8-10, 12).

Paul was here making use of Numbers 12, where it states, "Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud. He stood at the entrance to the tent, and summoned Aaron and Miriam. When the two of them stepped forward, He said, 'Listen to My words. When there is a prophet among you, I the Lord reveal Myself to him in visions. I speak to him in dreams. But this is not true of My servant Moses. He is faithful in all My house. With him I speak face to face clearly, and not in enigmas. He sees the [very] form of the Lord. Why, then, were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses?” (Numbers 12:5-8 ).

Paul used these exact same expressions to make the same comparison; of God speaking "face to face" (πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον) verses Him speaking to His prophets "in enigmas" (ἐν αἰνίγματι). An enigma is what a prophetic dream or vision is like. It is a riddle, which is why some translations read, "For now we see through a glass in obscurity (or in riddles)." Throughout ancient Greek, the word αίνιγμα is almost invariably translated into English as "dark sayings, riddles," hence the translations, "seeing through a glass darkly." In ancient times, glass was not nearly as refined as it is now. You could see through it a little, but the image was often very blurry and "dark," thus it took perception to discern what you were actually looking at through it. This parallels what it is like to interpret prophetic dreams and visions. They are like riddles, and take spiritual discernment to make out.

This is what the New Testament Christians were doing because Paul specifically used the words, "For now WE see through a glass darkly (present tense)." He was saying that when they got to Heaven, they would see God face to face just like Moses did. But at the present time they were still seeing through a glass darkly, or literally "in enigmas." It means that the New Testament prophets were still operating in prophecy by interpreting prophetic dreams and visions just like the Old Testament prophets did.

The surrounding context of 1st Corinthians all the more bears this out. In 1 Corinthians 12:31, Paul was urging them to seek the greater gifts, but then began showing them a better way to operate in them; in love for others. Our love for our brothers and sisters in Christ will remain even when we are finally in Heaven, when prophecy is no longer needed. But then he adds this, "[So] pursue love, and be zealous for spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophecy, for the one speaking in a tongues speaks not to men but to God... but the one prophesying speaks unto men for edification" (1 Corinthians 14:1-3). In other words, pray that God gives you the ability to prophecy so you can be of more benefit to others, and minister to them more in love.

Thus, Chapters 12 through 14 deal with the issue of operating in tongues and prophecy, and point out how prophecy is superior, being the greater gift, because it brings greater edification to the saints. But until we get to Heaven, Biblical prophecy has always been and will always be a practice that involves interpreting dreams and visions, because we still presently "see through a glass darkly," i.e. in enigmas and in "riddles."

Interesting perspective. The full context of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit must also be understood they types of Gifts

1cor 12:1 = pneumatikos
1cor 14: 4 = charisma
1cor 12:5 = diakonia
1cor 12:28 tithēmi which comes from Eph 4:11= didōmi the gifts of Christ listed in both 1cor chapter 12 & Eph chapter 4

We have

the Pneumatikia which s also part of the Charisma
diakonia set by God which is part of didomi =apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; and administration.

wattie · Nov 22, 2021

CS1 said:

Well, all I'm saying here is there was a point at which God stopped moving in Holy men of God to pen scripture. Proof of this? Revelation is done!

So maybe a misunderstanding here.

There is nothing in scripture to say God no longer moves in Holy men of God now of course.

CS1 · Nov 22, 2021

wattie said:

No, please be honest. No Pentecostal Doctrine teaches there is any other word but the written word of God which is Full and Complete. The Inspired inerrant word of God. That is not what 1 Corinthians chapter 13:8-10 is saying.
That argument is not even the subject matter. No, you are flipping the script.

CS1 · Nov 22, 2021

wattie said:

you said

"
Reasoning purely from this chapter isn't enough for this to hold water, but together with the experience of modern tongues being quite different to what was experienced in the early churches and similarly with what a biblical miracle is compared to what it is interpreted to be now among some circles..

Plus with the death of the apostles, it becomes evident the sign gifts have passed."

Please show me where you were just talking about and "saying here is there was a point at which God stopped moving in Holy men of God to pen scripture. "

Vindicator · Nov 22, 2021

CS1 said:

Yes, the "spirituals," the graces, the ministries, appointed positions of God, and the gifts associated with each.

Thanks for the heads up, I hadn't noticed how they are all used in this same context. Most are translated into English as simply "gifts," which loses some of the nuance.

Vindicator · Nov 22, 2021

CS1 said:

The Ephesians 4 passage also contains several verses that are rather inconsistent with the Cessationist position.

7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says, “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men"... 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

This truly wonderful passage is saying that the purpose of giving the gifts was for the entire body of Christ, i.e. His true spiritual body that is, to grow into the full stature of Christ as one Man together in Him, and together manifest ALL the supernatural abilities of Christ Himself as a body, with one manifesting miracles, another manifesting word of knowledge, another prophecy, another gifts of healing etc., and edifying each other into ever-increasing manifestation of His Fullness in Him. It's an amazing teaching really. The question for me is, how ON EARTH do Cessationists think we are doing this today? What do we do today aside from evangelize and that's it? How does this manifest Christ Jesus in all His Fullness, which was God's express intention in us becoming His body, with Christ as the Head, and the leadership serving as the joints and marrow (i.e. connecting and strengthening links)? Are we supposed to NOT desire to attain to the Full stature of Christ anymore?

I truly don't understand the Cessationist position. I certainly wish them well and hope they can come to see a different perspective, but their reading of scripture seems so uninspired to me. It's like we're reading two different books that contain the exact same text.

Misconceptions

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SophieT

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