How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[lamad]

And that's my point. The GT had to have once been longer than 3.5 years for it to be shortened down to the most recent length told by Revelation 13 to be 3.5 years. I find that it could have originally been 7 years to make sense with God deciding to change it to make sure some saints would survive.

What this means is the GT originally was longer than 3.5 years and no flesh of the saints were intended to survive. God decided to change those things and make it shorter and allow some to survive. This proves prophecy can be changed if God wants a new outcome.

Just read the text: there are "those days" of GT.

 

[DavidTree]

They are letting you get off of calling folks ...liar...on this forum.....but, I would strongly advise against calling God a liar.

Heresy is not permitted on this forum - pre-trib is clear heresy.

pre-trib is the lie - remember that, for it never came out of the mouth of God.

Repent for adding to and taking away from God's words.

You and your cohorts cannot bring forth one scripture that says "pre-trib rapture' - not one.

You speak against the word's of the LORD Jesus Christ, HE made it specific, His Coming AFTER the Tribulation - Matthew ch24

You commit heresy by corrupting the LORD's and the Apostle's specific statement that before His Coming a falling away/departure from truth will take place.

You and your cohorts are reveling in sin before God in this promotion of a lie to divide His Body by adding to His words.

REPENT and turn your heart to Christ.

 

[lamad]

Dancing and prancing around scripture will only make you go in circles.

It was made crystal clear that these Saints in Thessalonica were in tribulation greatly being persecuted unto death.

Not only that but since the Apostle Paul understood OT Prophecy, he wrote these words to Thessolinica:

So when we could bear it no longer, we were willing to be left on our own in Athens.
2We sent Timothy, our brother and fellow worker for God in the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith,
3so that none of you would be shaken by these trials. For you know that we are destined for this.
4Indeed, when we were with you, we kept warning you that we would suffer persecution;

and as you know, it has come to pass.

5For this reason, when I could bear it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter had somehow tempted you and caused our labor to be in vain.

Which brings us to chapter 4 where the Apostle FIRMLY & FOREVER gives the exact ORDER of the Coming of the LORD.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep/died in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain
until the coming of the Lord
will by no means precede those who have died/fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.

After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

No pre-trib rapture for anyone = PERIOD

Resurrection FIRST at His Coming = exactly what our LORD says in the Gospels and in Revelation

SEE here: Revelation 6:9-11

And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer,
until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

No one will understand Revelation if you "add to and take away" from God's words with pre-trib or any other falsehood.

It was made crystal clear that these Saints in Thessalonica were in tribulation greatly being persecuted unto death. NON SEQUITUR This fact has nothing to do with the 70th week. Did you not read "in this world we will have tribulation?" God added up 2000 years of tribulation in chapter 7 and called it "mega..."

 

[Absolutely]

They are letting you get off of calling folks ...liar...on this forum.....but, I would strongly advise against calling God a liar.

Myself and others have scolded him on that.
I cant imagine hooking up with an individual that belittles and basically lies about others while his " truth" when challenged is dodged and hidden.

 

[DavidTree]

YOu seem always to look for "clear verses." Often God does not provide clear verses. The 7 years is there, but it is not at first obvious.
The truth is, God "marked" the 70th week with 7's so we can easily find it.

If it is not clearly stated in Revelation, the Gospels and the Apostles - i would not inject that into Scripture - Agree

i also want everyone to understand this - there is not one pre-trib rapture in Scripture because God never spoke it.

The doctrine of pre-trib rapture never came from God, cannot be found in Scripture and is a lie.

The doctrine is the lie - attack the doctrine with TRUTH - Deut 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19

If you do, God will open your heart, mind and soul and Sanctify you - John 17

 

[lamad]

I didn't think of Revelation 6:9-11, it seems to fit well with 1 Thess. 4:17 and Matt. 24:22. I think this because it says "the full number of," meaning there is an unspecified number fellow servants (their brothers) that will be killed. To me this suggests that not all of their brothers will be killed, but only a "number of" (a fraction of) the total amount brothers available in a set.

These are church age martyrs and Stephen was without a doubt a part of that group. God knows how many (the total number) of church age martyrs there will be ("killed as they were") - as church age martyrs.

What will END the church age? Paul's pretrib rapture will end the church age and START the Day of the Lord.

How amazing then, the very next event John wrote of is the 6th seal START of the very judgment the martyrs were calling out for. The church has been waiting for that last martyr now for a very long time. But VERY SOON now Jesus is coming to the air, the rapture will take place, the church age will end and some martyr will be the final one - and the Day of the Lord will begin.

 

[lamad]

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled .

There is no amount listed in the passage.

God knows the number. The final martyr of the church age (Killed as they were - as church age martyrs - will be at the pretrib rapture that ENDS the church age and starts the Day of the Lord.

 

[DavidTree]

It was made crystal clear that these Saints in Thessalonica were in tribulation greatly being persecuted unto death. NON SEQUITUR This fact has nothing to do with the 70th week. Did you not read "in this world we will have tribulation?" God added up 2000 years of tribulation in chapter 7 and called it "mega..."

On the contrary, it has everything to do with the words of the LORD Jesus and the Prophets from whom Paul understood and wrote.

Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, 2and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith,

that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.

For, in fact,
we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation,

just as it happened, and you know. = 1 Thess 3:1-4

Order of Scripture = the Order of God = Order of the Prophets = Order of our LORD = the Order of the Apostles

 

[lamad]

The first verse is "a [beginning/starting] reference point" for the discussion. The second verse indicates the 'purpose' of the discussion. The third verse transitions to the 'focus' of the discussion - which is the "falling away" and the man of sin.

I would agree if you said "which is the departing and the man of sin revealed."

 

[lamad]

Why would you think there would be any? They would have all been raptured...

Read the last verse (28) of Hebrews 9

 

[lamad]

I think you need more study...

The 'Wrath of God' is the vials.

With careful study, you should discover that the sun/moon/stars part of Matthew 24:29 - that is 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days" - aligns with the Trumpet Events and the Two Witnesses (who cause those things to come about).

The Trumpet Events are post-trib and pre-wrath.

Yes, OF COURSE His wrath is in the vials. No one will disagree with that.

Where you miss it: God gets angry (starts His wrath) at the 6th seal, and then WITH the first trumpet judgment. God will start the Day of the Lord (a long, extended period of time) first, then start the 70th week. The week will end but the DAY will continue. He will have placed the entire 70th week INSIDE the Day of the Lord, showing us that the entire week (trumpets and vials included) will come with His wrath, being inside the Day of this wrath.

Just so you know, "post trib" does not begin until the 7th vial that ENDS the week.

 

[lamad]

Beyond the first sentence, there is very little truth...

If that were so, then Jesus quoted "very little truth."

The word "midst" there, meaning middle or half, tells us the week will be divided by some event that will stop the daily sacrifices. Daniel shows us a TYPE in Antiochus that stopped the daily sacrifices by entering the Holy of Holies and setting up an image of Zeus. The Antichrist Beast, being an "antitype" will do the same, probably setting up an image of himself.

 

[DavidTree]

YOu seem always to look for "clear verses." Often God does not provide clear verses. The 7 years is there, but it is not at first obvious.
The truth is, God "marked" the 70th week with 7's so we can easily find it.

And the reason why the Lord's ministry was approximately 3 to 3.5 years.

The 7th week began with the LORD - everything is in the Power and Control of God.

When the final Days of Daniel and Revelation begin/start will not be exactly known.

What we have been told is Matthew 24 , 2 Thess 2 , 1 Timothy 4:1 , James ch5 , Revelation

The revealing of the man of sin and his Mark = you will know that we are in the Final Countdown.
But of the EXACT Day and Hour no one knows but the Father.
There will be no announcement as to the exact day when the Final Countdown BEGINS but we are not in darkness since we have been TOLD the TRUTH.

Thus we are commanded this by the LORD =
Wake up and strengthen what remains, which was about to die; for I have found your deeds incomplete in the sight of My God.

Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. Revelation 3:3

REPENT from believing the lie of pre-trib

 

[DavidTree]

The word "apostasia" was also used in phrases saying:

--the "departure" of a fever

--the "departure" of a boat from a dock


(i.e. "spatial / geographical" departures).




Again, it is the CONTEXT that determines just "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant, in any given text.



(and in 2Th2:3 it is "THE departure"--a definite [/particular] one [...and note again what had been posted about the functions of the definite article "the"])

The LORD and the Apostles all said = DEPARTURE from Truth/Faith

REPENT from twisting God's words as the Serpent did in the Garden.

 

[lamad]

Keep in mind he thinks the falling away is the rapture and that Strong of the Strong's concordance "fibbed" or lied when he said the word apostasia means defection from the truth. I wonder if he thinks every Greek dictionary and concordance were also fibbing? It's a conspiracy against pre-trib!

Thayers:
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88


I wonder if Abbott-Smith, Liddell and Scott, and Winer's Grammar are also fibbing??




Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.







Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God , apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .





Winer's Grammar:



Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

A definition of a compound word should never veer too far from the meaning of the words that make up the compound word.
For example, a snowball. It is a ball, made of snow. A mailbox is a box used for mail. A railroad is a road made of rails. a paradigm is bringing two things up in parallel with each other to display or show them: perhaps to show the differences or the similarities. However, meanings of words change over time. Now paradigm is used, to show a shift or change in things. The parallel part of it is dimishing.

Always remember, apostasia is such a compound word and could CERTAINLY be used as Paul used it, keeping the meaning of each of the words. Have you looked up Strong's for apo? For Stasia?

1. of separation…
1A. of local separation,
1B. of separation of a part from the whole

1Bi. where of a whole some part is taken
1C. of any kind of separation of one thing from another…
1D. of a state of separation, that is of distance
1Di. physical, of distance of place

I did not write this, Mr. Strong wrote it. We get our word "stationary" from the greek Stasia." It means not moving. Notice 1D: a state of separation. A very siimilar Greek word was used for divorce, where there was separate: a part of a whole (2 people) departing and going somewhere else.

Have any of you guys translated an entire bible or entire New Testament? These guys did:

1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

Perhaps these guys copied from the first one - perhaps not. Without much doubt, MANY have copied the idea of a falling away from the King James.

When there is a choice of meanings in Greek, translators try to find the best meaning to fit the CONTEXT. Some do better than others.

The bigger question is, can a falling away equate with "taken out of the way?" Or, as some demand: "gone from the midst." To understand Paul's use of apostasia, one must also understand who or what the restraining power is. I find very little agreement on the restrainer. Yet, Paul wrote, "and now you know..." what is restraining.

 

[lamad]

The LORD and the Apostles all said = DEPARTURE from Truth/Faith

REPENT from twisting God's words as the Serpent did in the Garden.

The problem with this theory is, apostasia gives us NO INFORMATION as to what is being departed from. This is proven here:

Act 21:21
And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake G646 Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
The writer had to ADD who or what was being departed from: "Moses."

 

[DavidTree]

Read the last verse (28) of Hebrews 9

Hebrews 9:28 so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

Repent from the lie of pre-trib.

In everyplace in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation:

#1 - the Word of God
#2 - disobedience to the Word - satan/sin
#3 - Grace to believe the Word to those whom God calls
#4 - TRIBULATION
#5 - Grace to ENDURE
#6 - Pronouncement of Judgment upon the ungodly/world
#7 - Salvation - Deliverance from God's wrath

 

[lamad]

The LORD, and the Apostle John and again Paul all agree and say the exact same thing, falling away/departure from truth, and yet they refuse to accept and embrace their words = amazing.

Sorry, but "departing" or departure" fits the context of the passage far better than a falling away (from what the KJV did not say.)

 

[DavidTree]

A definition of a compound word should never veer too far from the meaning of the words that make up the compound word.
For example, a snowball. It is a ball, made of snow. A mailbox is a box used for mail. A railroad is a road made of rails. a paradigm is bringing two things up in parallel with each other to display or show them: perhaps to show the differences or the similarities. However, meanings of words change over time. Now paradigm is used, to show a shift or change in things. The parallel part of it is dimishing.

Always remember, apostasia is such a compound word and could CERTAINLY be used as Paul used it, keeping the meaning of each of the words. Have you looked up Strong's for apo? For Stasia?

1. of separation…
1A. of local separation,
1B. of separation of a part from the whole

1Bi. where of a whole some part is taken
1C. of any kind of separation of one thing from another…
1D. of a state of separation, that is of distance
1Di. physical, of distance of place

I did not write this, Mr. Strong wrote it. We get our word "stationary" from the greek Stasia." It means not moving. Notice 1D: a state of separation. A very siimilar Greek word was used for divorce, where there was separate: a part of a whole (2 people) departing and going somewhere else.

Have any of you guys translated an entire bible or entire New Testament? These guys did:

1384 Wycliffe N.T.
That no man deceyue you in any maner / for no but departynge aweye (or dissencon) schal come firste & the man of synne schall be schewid [shewed] the sone of perdicioune.

1534 Tyndale N.T.
Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

1535 Coverdale Bible
Let no man disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that Man of Synne be opened, even the sonne of perdicion.

1539 Cranmer Great Bible
Let no man deceaue you by any meanes, for the Lorde shall not come excepte there come a departinge fyrst, & that that synfull man be opened, the sonne of perdicion.

1549 Matthew's Bible
Let no man deceyue you by any meanes, for the Lord commeth not, except there come a departyng first, and that, that sinful man be opened, the sonne of perdicyon

1565 Beza Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for [that day shall not come,] except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, [euen] the son of perdition.

1575 Geneva Bible
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes for that day shal not come, except there come a departing first, and that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition.

Perhaps these guys copied from the first one - perhaps not. Without much doubt, MANY have copied the idea of a falling away from the King James.

When there is a choice of meanings in Greek, translators try to find the best meaning to fit the CONTEXT. Some do better than others.

The bigger question is, can a falling away equate with "taken out of the way?" Or, as some demand: "gone from the midst." To understand Paul's use of apostasia, one must also understand who or what the restraining power is. I find very little agreement on the restrainer. Yet, Paul wrote, "and now you know..." what is restraining.

The Apostle Paul who clearly said 'falling away/departure' connected it to the man of sin and not to the "gathering in verse 1"

The HOLY SPIRIT who made this clear rebukes you again in 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

The Apostle John rebukes you - 1 John 2:18-19
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us;
but they departed that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[lamad]

Hebrews 9:28 so also Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many;
and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him.

Repent from the lie of pre-trib.

In everyplace in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation:

#1 - the Word of God
#2 - disobedience to the Word - satan/sin
#3 - Grace to believe the Word to those whom God calls
#4 - TRIBULATION
#5 - Grace to ENDURE
#6 - Pronouncement of Judgment upon the ungodly/world
#7 - Salvation - Deliverance from God's wrath

Perhaps it is you who needs to repent. The writer of Hebrews does not tell us what happens to shoe who are NOT eagerly awaiting or looking for His coming. He or she leaves that up to our imagination. For me, I am looking for His coming TODAY!