Have you heard of this new movement that asserts that everyone is perfect yet flawed but should be accepted nonetheless?

[ZNP]

You say, "It is a lie to expect God to ignore the willful sins of those that despise their Creator.

" Well, you couldn't be more wrong when you say that. At the crucifixion, with Jesus beaten and nailed to the cross and the crowds mocking Him, He showed His great love for even those who despised and tortured/killed Him. He forgave them, didn't He?[/QUOTE]
Forgiving sins is not ignoring them. Jesus died on the cross for our sins, He didn't ignore sins, He realized the price had to be paid for them and He paid it.

 

[birdinmypalm]

You quote Romans 3:10. Unfortunately you quote it as a stand alone statement, out of context. The entire Cha 3 of Romans, by Paul, is instructing that the Jews, or anyone else. can become righteous through observance of the law.

However, make no mistake and have no doubt that Christians can become righteous. 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

No one can keep the Law. If man can go through his life and never sin, he will be deemed righteous. But only Jesus was sinless.

 

[arthurfleminger]

No. Those who refuse to repent and believe in Jesus Christ are still the enemies of God. They will be judged by God.

We are to love our enemies. But God is Just as well as Loving. He showed his Love by providing Himself as Savior and Redeemer. But for those who refuse His Savior, God promises His Justice.

It is a lie to expect God to ignore the willful sins of those that despise their Creator.

You say, "No. Those who refuse to repent and believe in Jesus Christ are still the enemies of God. They will be judged by God. "
That's not true at all. Paul refused to repent of his persecution of the church and refused to believe in Jesus Christ. Yet Christ embraced Paul and made him an Apostle, one of Jesus' own.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Jesus loves sinners, that's who He came to save. He paid a high price for each of us and He wants to save us more than we want to be saved ourselves. He seeks out each sinner, each of us, every second of our lives offering us His salvation. He loves us with an infinite love and will remain faithful to each of us. If any of us ends up in hell it will be a fate of our own choosing, not Jesus', He told us that it is the Father's will that 'ALL' be saved. If any of us wind up in hell it will be because we rejected Jesus gift of salvation, not because Jesus didn't seek to save us.

While we are alive we will be faced with many decisions on a daily basis. We will have to choose between good and evil, God's way or Satan's way, the salvation Jesus offers or damnation. When we make our choices, we need to keep our eyes wide open and our minds clear. Because what we choose is what we will receive. Jesus offers salvation to all but in the end it's our choice as to whether or not we'll accept His salvation. It's an offer from Jesus that you can accept or refuse. That's what free will is all about. Free will is a gift God gave us when He created us in His own image. And God greatly respects our free will.

When the prodigal son left the father (God) for the things of the world, God never pleaded with him to stay. Instead, the father respected the free will of his son. The father loved his son very much but wouldn't override the son's free will to part ways.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Jesus loves sinners, that's who He came to save. He paid a high price for each of us and He wants to save us more than we want to be saved ourselves. He seeks out each sinner, each of us, every second of our lives offering us His salvation. He loves us with an infinite love and will remain faithful to each of us. If any of us ends up in hell it will be a fate of our own choosing, not Jesus', He told us that it is the Father's will that 'ALL' be saved. If any of us wind up in hell it will be because we rejected Jesus gift of salvation, not because Jesus didn't seek to save us.

While we are alive we will be faced with many decisions on a daily basis. We will have to choose between good and evil, God's way or Satan's way, the salvation Jesus offers or damnation. When we make our choices, we need to keep our eyes wide open and our minds clear. Because what we choose is what we will receive. Jesus offers salvation to all but in the end it's our choice as to whether or not we'll accept His salvation. It's an offer from Jesus that you can accept or refuse. That's what free will is all about. Free will is a gift God gave us when He created us in His own image. And God greatly respects our free will.

When the prodigal son left the father (God) for the things of the world, God never pleaded with him to stay. Instead, the father respected the free will of his son. The father loved his son very much but wouldn't override the son's free will to part ways.

Peter states in Acts 4:12, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Salvation is an individual choice.

 

[arthurfleminger]

"You must be born again" is not so difficult to understand in light of the fact that the physical dies as a result of Adam's sin within whom we are all born. Some take this to mean that the soul of man is inherently immortal, but that flies in the face of what Scripture explicitly states, since God alone is immortal, and it is by grace through faith that we put on the incorruptibility, righteousness and immortality of Christ through His sinless life and sacrifice on our behalf due to His great and everlasting love. All those not found in Him at the end of this age, when all are resurrected to judgment, pass into the second death. How God judges the young is up to Him, and I am sure it will be just. What you say may be true, but is there a Scriptural basis for it? An age of reason given? I am curious

There is no explicit Scriptural passage for children not being held accountable for their sins, if they haven't reached the age of reason. However, such thought can be inferred from Scripture:

Romans 1:20, “Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” According to this, mankind’s guilt before God is based, in part, on the fact that people reject what they can “clearly see” of God’s existence, eternality, and power. This leads to the question of children who have no faculty for “clearly seeing” or reasoning about God—wouldn’t their natural incapacity to observe and reason provide them with an excuse?

 

[arthurfleminger]

We are born into sin being sons (and daughters) of Adam.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and
death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not
be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:6-7

A spiritual rebirth is required to escape the penalty for sin, which is death.

God would not be so unjust as to impose a penalty for sin for children who never had a chance for a spiritual rebirth. This can be inferred:

First John 2:2 says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse is clear that Jesus’ death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ’s death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God’s applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing. And children, under the age of reason, are not capable of believing or turning to Jesus. It would be nonsense to assume otherwise.

In the history of the world, many children have died before they've reached the age of reason or any understanding of Jesus and God. To presume that God is punishing them for non-existent sins because of their failure to turn to Jesus is nonsense. God in heaven is a just God.

 

[arthurfleminger]

If a child has not reached the age of reason then they can't have made a conscious decision to receive Jesus Christ.

First John 2:2 says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse is clear that Jesus’ death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ’s death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God’s applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.

Throughout the history of the world, millions of children have died without the opportunity of making a decision to receive Jesus Christ because they hadn't reached the age of reason. Do you really think God will punish them for this? Nonsense.

 

[ZNP]

First John 2:2 says Jesus is “the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” This verse is clear that Jesus’ death was sufficient for all sins, not just the sins of those who specifically have come to Him in faith. The fact that Christ’s death was sufficient for all sin would allow the possibility of God’s applying that payment to those who were never capable of believing.

Throughout the history of the world, millions of children have died without the opportunity of making a decision to receive Jesus Christ because they hadn't reached the age of reason. Do you really think God will punish them for this? Nonsense.

Of course I don't think that. Why do you assume that because I said they have not received Christ that therefore they will be "punished".

You begin with this false assumption that not being a Christian means you get punished and then from that you create all kinds of other false doctrines

Jesus atoning sacrifice is why the world has not been judged already. the entire world is clothed with this covering. However, at some point this covering will be taken away and then those that have not received the Lord will no longer be covered. When that covering is taken away there are indications that all children 2 and under will also be taken away.

 

[arthurfleminger]

"You must be born again" is not so difficult to understand in light of the fact that the physical dies as a result of Adam's sin within whom we are all born. Some take this to mean that the soul of man is inherently immortal, but that flies in the face of what Scripture explicitly states, since God alone is immortal, and it is by grace through faith that we put on the incorruptibility, righteousness and immortality of Christ through His sinless life and sacrifice on our behalf due to His great and everlasting love. All those not found in Him at the end of this age, when all are resurrected to judgment, pass into the second death. How God judges the young is up to Him, and I am sure it will be just. What you say may be true, but is there a Scriptural basis for it? An age of reason given? I am curious

You ask if there is any basis from Scripture for 'an age of reason'. Again, it can be inferred from Matthew 19:14 in which Jesus asks to bring the innocent children to Him, "But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Another verse, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 18:3–4).

 

[SomeDisciple]

"Perfect, yet flawed, and should be accepted nonetheless"... I think that sounds like... Unitarian univeralism? I think those guys accept anybody into their congregation- they don't have to actually believe anything, I think they are just lonely and want friends!!!

I would describe Christianity as...

Everyone is flawed, but if they believe on the Lord: they will be accepted- and made perfect.

 

[ZNP]

It was the Pharisees who criticized Jesus for eating with and befriending tax collectors and sinners. After all, it was not the 'self proclaimed righteoous' that Jesus came for it was for sinners. And the church is full of sinners, in fact everyone there is a sinner. Jesus' church is a place for healing not for those who claim to be without sin.

How could the people who deny that Jesus came in the flesh be the same ones that He ate with? How could you eat with Jesus, see Him have a hamburger and fries, and then deny He came in the flesh? This post of yours makes no sense. I referred to verses about those who deny Jesus came in the flesh and you think that is referring to those who ate with Him and were His friend?

 

[Adstar]

I believe it's called Christianity.

I have heard of a Movement that says that through trusting in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus we are Deemed perfect whilst we are currently in a temporary state of imperfection.

 

[SalomePortman]

"Perfect, yet flawed, and should be accepted nonetheless"... I think that sounds like... Unitarian univeralism? I think those guys accept anybody into their congregation- they don't have to actually believe anything, I think they are just lonely and want friends!!!

I would describe Christianity as...

Everyone is flawed, but if they believe on the Lord: they will be accepted- and made perfect.

Are we not made in God's image? Is God not perfect?

 

[Godsgirl83]

I keep hearing that we 'all' have sinned and I don't believe that's true at all.

Do you believe what the Word of God says is true?

Romans 321-24
21) But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22) And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23) for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24) and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Do you believe what the Word of God says is true?

Romans 321-24
21) But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22) And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23) for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24) and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Yes, I do believe that the bible and New Testament are the inspired word of God. I also believe that some. like you, don't know how to read the bible in context. You cherry pick one or two verses out of a chapter and ignore the context from which it was taken and the audience to whom it was delivered.

Read Paul, chapter 3, not one or two line and you can see that he is preaching to a Jewish adult audience and he is telling them that they can't achieve righteousness through observance of the law. All have sinned against these laws and no one can keep them.

Try reading the entire chapter. Do you really think Paul was talking about adults only or children when he said:

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

You have missed the point, by cherry picking a few lines out of chapter 3 you distort the whole message.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Are we not made in God's image?

Yep, but everybody born after Adam was made in his image too, and by that time he wasn't perfect anymore, so neither are we. Jesus has to make us perfect.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Yep, but everybody born after Adam was made in his image too, and by that time he wasn't perfect anymore, so neither are we. Jesus has to make us perfect.

I agree with your post in that when Adam fell we became imperfect. However, we still were made in the image of God and still retain that image. So, what does that mean?

Having the “image” or “likeness” of God means, in the simplest terms, that we were made to resemble God. We are like him because He is our Creator and he endowed us with gifts that no other creatures possess.

This doesn’t mean that Adam somehow looked like God. After all, “God is spirit” (John 4:24), and therefore invisible. Adam’s body did mirror the life of God insofar as it was created in perfect health and was not subject to death.

The resemblance however is primarily in man’s spirit.

It is this spirit that sets man apart from the animal world, and places him in dominion over the earth. Only man has the capacity to reason, to make moral decisions, and to intimately commune with God and his fellow man. This spirit that God gave man, and man alone, granted to him a mental, moral, and social likeness with God. Mentally, man was created as a rational, volitional (or “willful”) being. In other words, man can reason and man can choose. This is a reflection of God’s own intellect and freedom.

Morally, man was created in righteousness and perfect innocence, a reflection of God’s holiness. God saw all that He had made and called it “very good” (Gen 1:31). Our conscience or “moral compass” is a vestige of that original state.

Socially, man was created for fellowship. This reflects God’s triune nature as a community of Persons and the love that is shared between these Persons. In Eden, man’s primary relationship was with God and God made the first woman because “it is not good that the man should be alone” (Gen 2:18).

It is no small thing what God has done in allowing us to have a share in his divine attributes. God raises us up by making us more like Him and allowing us to participate in His divine life. He has given mankind the capacity to actually have a personal relationship with Him! No other creature can boast of such a thing.

Make no mistake, we are creatures made in God's image and likeness. Are we gods, absolutely not, are we perfect, absolutely not. But God plans to make us perfect through Jesus.

 

[franksturs]

Sounds pretty dumb. A movement whose description is an oxymoron isn't something people take seriously.

 

[franksturs]

Excuse what I wrote earlier. I see you were just being pro-Christ.

I would say that it's more like everyone is disgusting filth, but there is a movement that offers people the power to become honorable and upstanding white knights who live to save the innocent, and when they finally retire are turned into perfection.