More pieces fall into place

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Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#41
No, it was an addition to my post #33 really. I wanted to edit that post but time ran out.

Not used to such a short window of time to correct things yet myself. I'm trying to see things in a positive light, and tell myself I'm going to change my habits and actually proof-read now before posting.

I'm probably just lying to myself, LoL.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,433
3,684
113
#42
Yeah, I spend a lot of time proofreading. lol

I don't see why it couldn't be extended to 10 minutes at least. I understand the reason for having a time limit, but 5 minutes seems kinda short. Maybe the software doesn't have a 10 minute option.
 

Aerials1978

Well-known member
Dec 10, 2019
1,707
987
113
#43
I'm just curious. If a prophet must be grounded in the word, and not prophecy anything that contradicts God's word, why do we need prophets? Teachers, yeah. But it seems prophecy is irrelevant if it must always conform to God's word. Why not just study God's word? Am I making sense?
I agree. A lot of books seem to trail off into the weeds. Many good intentioned people end up believing something that is not Biblical.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
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#44
As a brief overview of the New Apostolic Reformation, allow me to share the following:

1. The NAR doesn't have a central headquarters like most traditional denominations, with a brick and mortar building located somewhere. It's a network of like-minded people and churches.

2. It does, however, have recognized leadership. C. Peter Wagner is the acknowledged founder of the NAR as we know it today. Wagner's the one who coined the name "New Apostolic Reformation." But its roots go back to the 1950s to the Latter Rain movement and the Manifest Sons of God. Names in these movements include William Branham and even Jim Jones.

3. There's an organization comprised of some of the NAR's top leaders: the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders. So there is a recognized group of leaders.

4. The goal is to reform the church from the inside out. Gone is the traditional (and Biblical) model of elder and deacon leadership; in is the authoritative leadership of the apostle.

5. NAR churches aren't necessarily governed on site by an apostle. More frequently an apostle is the head of a network of many churches and local pastors; some of these networks number in the thousands.

6. C. Peter Wagner claims that the NAR movement is a spontaneous move of God in these latter days. However, all one has to do is read some of Wagner's books and you can see a game plan being developed—not from God but out of his own mind. In fact, Wagner is really the intellectual father of the NAR and most of their beliefs and practices can be traced to him. See for example his contribution to The New Apostolic Churches, 1998: https://www.urbanleaders.org/620Leadership/92Readings/articles/Wagner-New Apostolic Churches.pdf (Direct download).

7. NAR groups aren't just in the US but are worldwide. They are by far the fastest-growing movement, surpassing even Pentecostalism.

8. The NAR is not part of Pentecostalism; however, it's an outgrowth of Pentecostalism and the Assemblies of God. The assemblies of God didn't want anything to do with them. Recently evidence has surfaced that Bethel Church (formerly Bethel Assembly of God), under the leadership of Bill Johnson, is infiltrating certain AoG churches and taking them over. This, really, is the ultimate goal for all churches.

9. There's an article NPR did with C. Peter Wagner in 2011 here: https://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics. Wagner shares his views on such things as the apostle's authority, dominionism and the Seven Mountains Mandate, among other things. It's clear from his responses the goal is a silent coup, a takeover from within. I found his response to the subject of evangelism pretty interesting: "Well, we respect all religions, but we also respect the freedom of exercising our religion. And part of our religion is called evangelization. It's called presenting Jesus Christ to others and persuading them to become followers of Jesus Christ and walk into the kingdom of God." Sounds good but he forgot about the first part before you walk with Jesus: repentance and the new birth. Judas was a "follower of Jesus." And by "kingdom of God" he doesn't mean a spiritual kingdom but the kingdom of dominionism which he, and others, strive to usher in.

10. Below is an excellent video on the roots of the NAR and the NAR today. All this only scratches the surface, but it's enough to show that it's a thing. It's players and origins can be identified. It's in plain site and most people have no clue what's going on.

Thanks Resident,

I had discovered NARS and Bethel only a few months ago, so interesting to find out more--I just was looking for the 7 mountains mandate as well on youtube--I have a zoom meeting at 2 so will look at it later this afternoon--many things I have never heard of before such as 'apostle's authority' and dominionsism are other things for me to research. I have left the institutional church as I see many problems--one that every single denomination follows the teachings of some man and adhere to some false doctrine and that it is run like a business--as I've said before--it's like Netlifix series--same formula / script movie trailer sermon--tune in next week!
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
#45
Not used to such a short window of time to correct things yet myself. I'm trying to see things in a positive light, and tell myself I'm going to change my habits and actually proof-read now before posting.

I'm probably just lying to myself, LoL.
Hi Vindicator,

I'm quick on the draw myself and realized what I could do is open a Word doc or Google Docs and type it there, then cut and paste.
This has the added benefit of saving some of your ideas to refer to or use again in a similar forum.

I'm off to my very first Sabbath Zoom service--we shall see....:unsure:
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#46
Hi Vindicator,

I'm quick on the draw myself and realized what I could do is open a Word doc or Google Docs and type it there, then cut and paste.
This has the added benefit of saving some of your ideas to refer to or use again in a similar forum.

I'm off to my very first Sabbath Zoom service--we shall see....:unsure:

If you don't mind my asking, are you a new believer? How long have you belonged to Christ?
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
#47
If you don't mind my asking, are you a new believer? How long have you belonged to Christ?
really? I guess you havent read many of my posts….most of my life. Im curious what would make you think im a new believer?:(
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#48
really? I guess you havent read many of my posts….most of my life. Im curious what would make you think im a new believer?:(

Well I didn't think so initially. It's just that you sounded a bit exuberant about your "first Sabbath Zoom thing," so I got curious.

So how'd it go?
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
#49
Well I didn't think so initially. It's just that you sounded a bit exuberant about your "first Sabbath Zoom thing," so I got curious.

So how'd it go?
I'm a bit offended to tell you the truth--after all the scripture verses I've quoted--not to mention all the writing I do when explaining my position--not a lot of other do that. apologetics is something that I really enjoy and care deeply about--it would be like asking someone who's played tennis their whole life if they were a beginner....:confused:
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#51
I'm a bit offended to tell you the truth--after all the scripture verses I've quoted--not to mention all the writing I do when explaining my position--not a lot of other do that. apologetics is something that I really enjoy and care deeply about--it would be like asking someone who's played tennis their whole life if they were a beginner....:confused:

No, no. It's not like that. I just don't see too many Christians who've been through it all still getting excited about much. Maybe that's a misconception on my part.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
3,044
1,799
113
#52
Excellent post, Aaron.

If you could, tell me what you think of Post #29. I believe the gift of prophecy is still of immense value in the spiritual war, and I personally think the things the enemy has done through people like the Kingdom Now crowd have helped serve to dissuade people from it, and in doing so disarming the church.

Btw, I had pastor friend who got deeply into Guillermo Maldonado, and I was appalled. What those people have to do to Biblical prophecy to make their theology work is just frightening.

I warned people in that church about following that business, and it was not long afterwards that Myles Monroe, the founding father of Kingdom Now, died in a plane crash in 2014. My pastor friend has since backed off it somewhat, thank the Lord.
I agree that prophesy is of immense importance to those who are led by the Spirit.

There are currently two sons in the earth: one is of Adam, the other is of Christ. One sets his path based on logic and reason. The other is led by the Spirit of God.

The Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil, this includes all who are included in the Son. We are in fact bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh, the very vehicle in which He may interact with the world.

Those who say God does not talk to us today have been around for a long time. In days past, God winked at such immature thinking. As the Day approaches, such thinking renders the believer deaf and blind. If we cannot receive one another in the spirit, we cannot receive what God has for us.

I think we are in agreement with this. :)
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,433
3,684
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#53
The more I think about this, the more questions I have; especially about Grudem's book, and why someone would go out of their way to find something in the Bible that justifies false prophecy. For that's what it is; let's just call a spade a spade. Whether you say I flubbed it, I got it wrong, whatever, it's a false prophecy.

First of all, we know Agabus was a true prophet, for he prophesied in Acts 11:28—by the Spirit—that a great famine was coming, and this came to pass. In Acts 21, Agabus prophesied the Jews would bind Paul with his own belt and hand him over to the Gentiles saying: "Thus says the Holy Spirit."

Later in the same chapter we find the account of Paul's being accosted by the Jews and his subsequent arrest by the Romans. The detail about the belt is left out and this, the so-called prophets of the NAR say, makes Agabus' prophecy false because it doesn't say anything about the belt. Seriously? It says he was seized by the Jews and "dragged." Why else would he be dragged unless his feet were bound? When they seized him they grabbed the closest thing available, Paul's belt.

Let's review. Agabus was a true prophet; we know this from Acts 11. In both of his prophecies, the text says he spoke by the Holy Spirit. So either the Holy Spirit is a liar; or Agabus "flubbed" it; or Wayne Grudem is a liar. I know what makes most sense to me.

Why is this idea about Agabus being a false prophet only now surfacing? Did Grudem invent the idea? I've never heard of any such thing until I was made aware of his book. If Agabus was a false prophet, wouldn't this have become a standard church doctrine long ago? Again, I find it a little disturbing that people would go to these lengths to justify false prophecy.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
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#54
The more I think about this, the more questions I have; especially about Grudem's book, and why someone would go out of their way to find something in the Bible that justifies false prophecy. For that's what it is; let's just call a spade a spade. Whether you say I flubbed it, I got it wrong, whatever, it's a false prophecy.

First of all, we know Agabus was a true prophet, for he prophesied in Acts 11:28—by the Spirit—that a great famine was coming, and this came to pass. In Acts 21, Agabus prophesied the Jews would bind Paul with his own belt and hand him over to the Gentiles saying: "Thus says the Holy Spirit."

Later in the same chapter we find the account of Paul's being accosted by the Jews and his subsequent arrest by the Romans. The detail about the belt is left out and this, the so-called prophets of the NAR say, makes Agabus' prophecy false because it doesn't say anything about the belt. Seriously? It says he was seized by the Jews and "dragged." Why else would he be dragged unless his feet were bound? When they seized him they grabbed the closest thing available, Paul's belt.

Let's review. Agabus was a true prophet; we know this from Acts 11. In both of his prophecies, the text says he spoke by the Holy Spirit. So either the Holy Spirit is a liar; or Agabus "flubbed" it; or Wayne Grudem is a liar. I know what makes most sense to me.

Why is this idea about Agabus being a false prophet only now surfacing? Did Grudem invent the idea? I've never heard of any such thing until I was made aware of his book. If Agabus was a false prophet, wouldn't this have become a standard church doctrine long ago? Again, I find it a little disturbing that people would go to these lengths to justify false prophecy.
"and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."--Acts 20:30

I feel this is true about many of what we call 'christian cults'--some may disagree, but i feel that is what happened with Witness Lee--he took Watchman Nee's teachings and twisted them to 'draw away disciples after him.' I have only the 'Normal Christian Life'--a compilation of Watchman's (not Witness) teaching and sermons and only find a couple of things questionable--most is pretty solid teaching, at least in my estimation.

If anyone cares to look into these churches--they say they are as the first century church and will simply call themselves 'The Church in San Francisco"--named after the town they are in.

Also the Boston Church of Christ broke off from the Church of Christ--they have changed their name after much controversy-I forget the name now.

This has happened numerous times over the centuries and continues on in our present time--I've just begun to study the things you posted and some of the other false doctrine I find on these forums--my head is swimming from them all!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,149
30,296
113
#55
There are currently two sons in the earth: one is of Adam, the other is of Christ.
One sets his path based on logic and reason. The other is led by the Spirit of God.
Many non-believers revel in vaunting them selves above believers, often claiming to be more rational and logical, more reasonable and intelligent than those whom they oppose... however, if you spend time with them, speaking to them about what they believe and conversely telling them what you believe and why? You will find they are not nearly as rational nor logical nor reasonable nor intelligent as they love to believe they are. They suffer from the pride of life, and wear it like a badge of honor.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,433
3,684
113
#56
"and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."--Acts 20:30

I feel this is true about many of what we call 'christian cults'--some may disagree, but i feel that is what happened with Witness Lee--he took Watchman Nee's teachings and twisted them to 'draw away disciples after him.' I have only the 'Normal Christian Life'--a compilation of Watchman's (not Witness) teaching and sermons and only find a couple of things questionable--most is pretty solid teaching, at least in my estimation.

If anyone cares to look into these churches--they say they are as the first century church and will simply call themselves 'The Church in San Francisco"--named after the town they are in.

Also the Boston Church of Christ broke off from the Church of Christ--they have changed their name after much controversy-I forget the name now.

This has happened numerous times over the centuries and continues on in our present time--I've just begun to study the things you posted and some of the other false doctrine I find on these forums--my head is swimming from them all!
I hope it's not too discouraging; that's not my intent. I just think a lot of things start making more sense when you know what's behind it.
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
113
#57
No, no. It's not like that. I just don't see too many Christians who've been through it all still getting excited about much. Maybe that's a misconception on my part.
Not sure what I was excited about--I said I was attending my first SABBATH service--I know no Christians personally that worship on the Sabbath, I, as the majority of Christians have considered Sunday as the day to assemble--does this mean you gather in the assembly to worship on the Sabbath and didn't take it as anything different or special?.:unsure:
 

Laura798

Well-known member
Jun 6, 2020
1,716
593
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#58
I hope it's not too discouraging; that's not my intent. I just think a lot of things start making more sense when you know what's behind it.
No worries! Life is full of discouragement. And sin should be discouraging --false teaching should be discouraging.

I thank God He has given me a discerning spirit, but it has caused me to stop going to church as I see false teaching in every church--and find the institutional church run more like a business--the script--every week 'same song' , same script; most of the money going to run the machine--not like in the first century when all of it went to help those in need--including those who worked full time for the gospel like Paul--however even he wasn't receiving a salary.

The worst of it is the churches are dead--I am not talking about fake 'stirring up' the people with loud music, smoke machines and the incredibly annoying 'CAN YOU SAY__________________?!" Ugh. I find it all so tiresome--the emptiness of it all--it's soul deadening.

I just tried a zoom Saturday Service yesterday and during prayer requests three out of 10 people talked about their cars, then when we finally were about to pray someone decided they wanted to play a nearly 10 minute song on Youtbe--which repeated and repeated he same stanza--ugh.....just ugh.... talk about discouraging....:confused:
 

Vindicator

Active member
Nov 11, 2021
228
71
28
#60
First of all, we know Agabus was a true prophet, for he prophesied in Acts 11:28—by the Spirit—that a great famine was coming, and this came to pass. In Acts 21, Agabus prophesied the Jews would bind Paul with his own belt and hand him over to the Gentiles saying: "Thus says the Holy Spirit."

Ok, now I have no clue what this guy's book actually says since you are not providing direct quotes here, but we are already agreed that NAR needs to be patently rejected, if for nothing else than for teaching Dominionism. But understand that before I go on here, I am in no way whatsoever sympathizing or supporting the arguments of NAR or the above author.

That said, let me show you something that is very interesting from this passage of scripture, and why Paul taught that "we know in part and we prophesy in part". I will highlight the words that are of particular importance:

8 On the next day we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. 9 Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied. 10 And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. 11 When he had come to us, he took Paul’s belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’ ” 12 Now when we heard these things, both we and those from that place pleaded with him not to go up to Jerusalem. 13 Then Paul answered, “What do you mean by weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” 14 So when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, “The will of the Lord be done.

Now, when you look very closely here, you have an entire congregation with several prophets present (Agabus, as well as the four daughters of Philip the evangelist), and the entire bunch including Luke himself are trying to persuade Paul NOT to go. The problem here is that while they knew what the Spirit was saying about what would happen to Paul, what they did NOT know was that Paul had already made the decision he was going whether he died there or not, in keeping with the will of God (see v14). As was a major part of Paul's teaching, "no one should be shaken by afflictions, for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this" and "all who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." This passage, then, is a clear example of how true prophets of God can only know PART of the picture but not all of it, and why Paul said, "we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when that which is perfect has come, that which is part shall be done away with."

Were they false prophets? No. Did they know the entire picture yet as prophets of God? No, or they would not have been trying to dissuade Paul from going. It illustrates that even prophets can not know the full will of God on a subject, even in the midst of proclaiming accurate prophecies from the Lord.