Be Perfect As Your Heavenly Father Is Perfect.

[randyk]

continuing....
When we read that Jesus said "be perfect," what he meant to say was "don't be a fraud," or "don't pretend religious devotion." "Perfection," in this sense, refers to being properly in compliance with the spirit of the law, rather than to be sinless in obeying the Law. It means to not *fake* keeping the Law. To be "perfect" is to obey Christ's mandates properly, as he intended, which *never* required perfection!

Matt 5.46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

At first glance you might think Jesus was telling his followers to be *as perfect as* God. But obviously, that was not what was meant, since it was already said about Jesus that he "knew what was in men," ie he knew they were sinners, or pulled by their Sin Nature towards sin.

But if you look at the total context, it's clear that Jesus was "perfecting" the view some had towards obeying the Law. It was not a matter of being sinless, but rather, a matter of getting it right. To "love only your friends and family" is not getting it right. To love your enemies is in fact getting it right, and understanding the spirit of God's laws.

Jesus would not be suggesting that the only way to love your enemies is by being sinless. Rather, he is saying that to be "perfect" in obeying God's laws to love others is to not be discriminatory in our showing of God's love, but to be like God and show love *all the time,* both to friends and enemies.

 

[justbyfaith]

By all means, pursue holiness, but not perfection. You'll never get there,

I believe that Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), and 1 John 3:9 (kjv) might tell you different.

See also 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6;

1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17;

Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10;

Romans 8:4, Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT);

Romans 6:6 (kjv), Colossians 2:11 (kjv, NLT).

 

[justbyfaith]

You know something I noticed about Jesus in his time here is that the more he did God's will the more he was attacked by the enemy he was even on the mountain tempted by him. There is a wise saying that says if your being attacked by the enemy you must be doing something right. The more we walk in him and the closer we become to God the more we are attacked and tempted and I am sure many here can attest to that.
You claim to rarely be tempted but if say the enemy tempts and attacks us because he wants to draw us away from that place of intimacy with him we are dangerous to the enemies mission things get harder the more we draw near to him not easier.

We are tempted more and attacked more the closer we are to God not less being perfect has nothing to do with never sinning and being sinless but has everything to do with unity with him we are made perfect and spotless in him not because we never sin but because he never sinned and died for us.

The enemy will attempt to tempt and entice those who are dangerous to him, and I will not disagree with that.

What I am saying is that if you are partaking of the water that Jesus has to offer, you are not any longer thirsty for the water that you used to partake of when you were in the world.

Therefore, the devil may try to tempt you; but the things that he throws at you will no longer have the same appeal.

 

[justbyfaith]

I just did

Why did you type out the scripture in the alternate translation but did not type them out when you looked them up in the kjv?

 

[justbyfaith]

I just did and maybe I am missing something here but this doesn't answer my question it just shows the world is blind to God's truth.
But pay close to attention to the wording in this verse 1 john 8-9






[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Note he uses the word we three times in the first sentence he didn't say the world he didn't say mankind or those not in Christ he said we then in the second part of the first sentence he uses the word us then in the second sentence uses the word we again and the word our in total he uses the word we six times our twice and us four times all words including ourselves that have to do with as a collective us we our he is speaking of everyone in the room that he is preaching to those who were in Christ.

To be honest I know I cannot convince you otherwise I know denial when I see it but I just thoiught you should ponder on why he uses these words in particular so many times in just this verse

What does it mean to "say that we have no sin"?

Is it not to believe that sin has been eradicated from us so that we are without sin?

However, that is not the doctrine that I have been setting forth.

The doctrine of entire sanctification does not purport that sin is eradicated so that we are without sin; rather it sets forth the concept that sin is rendered dead within us (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14). Because we are not any longer obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)); since it has been rendered dead and crucified.

So then, we do not say that we have no sin...indeed we have it...

But we say that we do not have to sin...because we have been set free from its power; since it has been rendered dead.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yea, it does seem that Paul was attacked for his message on "grace!"

Gal 5.10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

I agree with you. It has never been about our being sinlessly perfect. That is a *false* definition of "perfection" in the way Paul and Jesus would use that term. To be properly in compliance with the covenant is what "perfection" really means, and this *never* required perfection. The old covenant prevented immortality simply by breaking a single law, or by committing a single sin--just like in the garden of Eden. But the covenant of Grace never required sinlessness--it only required a sinless Christ to make restitution for us.

God wants spiritual unity with us, and that on an eternal basis. That is all that is required of us--our genuine love and affection!!

When we read that Jesus said "be perfect," what he meant to say was "don't be a fraud," or "don't pretend religious devotion." "Perfection," in this sense, refers to being properly in compliance with the spirit of the law, rather than to be sinless in obeying the Law. It means to not *fake* keeping the Law. To be "perfect" is to obey Christ's mandates properly, as he intended, which *never* required perfection!

Changing the definition of what it means to be perfect amounts to false doctrine and heresy, impaho.

I have addressed this problem in a thread that I will link to below.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-meaning-of-mature.202005/

 

[Blain]

Yea, it does seem that Paul was attacked for his message on "grace!"

Gal 5.10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

I agree with you. It has never been about our being sinlessly perfect. That is a *false* definition of "perfection" in the way Paul and Jesus would use that term. To be properly in compliance with the covenant is what "perfection" really means, and this *never* required perfection. The old covenant prevented immortality simply by breaking a single law, or by committing a single sin--just like in the garden of Eden. But the covenant of Grace never required sinlessness--it only required a sinless Christ to make restitution for us.

God wants spiritual unity with us, and that on an eternal basis. That is all that is required of us--our genuine love and affection!!

When we read that Jesus said "be perfect," what he meant to say was "don't be a fraud," or "don't pretend religious devotion." "Perfection," in this sense, refers to being properly in compliance with the spirit of the law, rather than to be sinless in obeying the Law. It means to not *fake* keeping the Law. To be "perfect" is to obey Christ's mandates properly, as he intended, which *never* required perfection!

The enemy will attempt to tempt and entice those who are dangerous to him, and I will not disagree with that.

What I am saying is that if you are partaking of the water that Jesus has to offer, you are not any longer thirsty for the water that you used to partake of when you were in the world.

Therefore, the devil may try to tempt you; but the things that he throws at you will no longer have the same appeal.

ok I see now what your saying

 

[Blain]

Why did you type out the scripture in the alternate translation but did not type them out when you looked them up in the kjv?

honestly I just didn't think about it the verses were pretty similar albeit some differences but in general say the same thing

 

[Blain]

What does it mean to "say that we have no sin"?

Is it not to believe that sin has been eradicated from us so that we are without sin?

However, that is not the doctrine that I have been setting forth.

The doctrine of entire sanctification does not purport that sin is eradicated so that we are without sin; rather it sets forth the concept that sin is rendered dead within us (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14). Because we are not any longer obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)); since it has been rendered dead and crucified.

So then, we do not say that we have no sin...indeed we have it...

But we say that we do not have to sin...because we have been set free from its power; since it has been rendered dead.

perhaps I misundered you but that really depends on your answer to this- do you believe that you are now perfect and never sin or do you believe you are perfect in Christ and sin no longer holds the power over you as it did when you lived in the flesh? because like I said before those who preach the sinless perfection doctrine in a sense are right because we are made perfect in him. if I misunderstood you I do apologize but if you truly believe otherwise I will have to stand my ground on the matter

 

[randyk]

Changing the definition of what it means to be perfect amounts to false doctrine and heresy, impaho.

I have addressed this problem in a thread that I will link to below.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-meaning-of-mature.202005/

No, you are reading your own English personally-used definition of "perfection," which was never intended. You can easily see that by looking honestly at the context, both overall biblically and in this specific citation. Jesus never meant to speak of perfection--otherwise, salvation would never have been made to be "by grace."

The whole question revolves over what "living in righteousness" means. I've been telling you that NT righteousness is living by grace, and not by living by the letter perfectly.

Compliance with God's laws under the Law of Moses was never meant to imply "perfection" either. Many fail to understand what Paul meant when he said that the Law required perfection.

Paul was arguing that following the Law, as much as it may please God, actually kept mankind out of heaven. Just a single sin would keep us out of heaven. And we need covering for sin every day. That is what the Law taught Israel.

I might say it's fine to believe what you do. Everybody has their own conviction about things. But on this particular issue, I think what you're teaching will hurt a lot of people because they'll be trying to live "by the letter of the Law," and not by grace. Grace is righteousness, but it does not expect to exterminate our sin nature. We simply "overcome sin," rather than exterminate it.

Otherwise, people will live in constant condemnation, every time they have a covetous thought, or some lustful thought, or an interest in something materialistic. We're equipped, by the Spirit, to deal with these things as they come along, rather than completely exterminate them, as you teach. You say "it's easy," but in my view, that would be living in denial, or living on an island.

The command to "be perfect" is simply a call to live in true obedience to God's word, rather than by some false standard. The Pharisees lowered the bar for righteousness by seeking to be perfect on their own, without the help of God's Spirit. True obedience relies upon the grace of God. That is "being perfect," according to Jesus.

 

[randyk]

Changing the definition of what it means to be perfect amounts to false doctrine and heresy, impaho.

Rather, it's heretical to claim you can be justified by works. To imply we can be perfect *at any time* is to claim perfection by works, and this belief was prohibited in Christian history.

Jesus' command to "be perfect" is simply a call to live in true obedience to God's word, rather than by some false standard. The Pharisees lowered the bar for righteousness by seeking to be perfect on their own, without the help of God's Spirit. True obedience relies upon the grace of God. That is "being perfect," according to Jesus.

I think the word "perfect" is a poor choice of a translation in today's world, because in English we understand "perfection" differently than how Jesus was using it. The kind of "perfection" Jesus referred to would be like a parent telling a child to do his homework. To be "perfect" would be if the child did his homework. To be "imperfect" would be for the child to do a little of his homework and play the rest of the time.

To be "perfect," in this case, would not require the boy to do his homework "perfectly." Do you see the difference?

What Jesus was saying was that being imperfect was following the Law externally, and not by the Spirit. To be "perfect" was to obey God by the Spirit. And this was true as much under the Law as it is in the NT era. The only difference in the NT era is that living by the Spirit today we have the atonement of Christ covering our failures, instead of the sacrifices of animals.

What Jesus was saying was that we should obey God properly, instead of doing it *perfectly.* But I suppose you will believe what you want to believe?

 

[justbyfaith]

honestly I just didn't think about it the verses were pretty similar albeit some differences but in general say the same thing

I think that the word "blameless" means something slightly different than "perfect" (in Job 9:21).

 

[justbyfaith]

perhaps I misundered you but that really depends on your answer to this- do you believe that you are now perfect and never sin or do you believe you are perfect in Christ and sin no longer holds the power over you as it did when you lived in the flesh? because like I said before those who preach the sinless perfection doctrine in a sense are right because we are made perfect in him. if I misunderstood you I do apologize but if you truly believe otherwise I will have to stand my ground on the matter

I believe that it is possible to never sin again because sin no longer holds power over us.

1 John 3:6 tells us that the one who abides in Him sinneth not. And 1 John 2:17 tells us that we can abide in Him for ever more.

Therefore it is possible to "sin not" "for ever more".

 

[justbyfaith]

No, you are reading your own English personally-used definition of "perfection," which was never intended. You can easily see that by looking honestly at the context, both overall biblically and in this specific citation. Jesus never meant to speak of perfection--otherwise, salvation would never have been made to be "by grace."

The whole question revolves over what "living in righteousness" means. I've been telling you that NT righteousness is living by grace, and not by living by the letter perfectly.

Compliance with God's laws under the Law of Moses was never meant to imply "perfection" either. Many fail to understand what Paul meant when he said that the Law required perfection.

Paul was arguing that following the Law, as much as it may please God, actually kept mankind out of heaven. Just a single sin would keep us out of heaven. And we need covering for sin every day. That is what the Law taught Israel.

I might say it's fine to believe what you do. Everybody has their own conviction about things. But on this particular issue, I think what you're teaching will hurt a lot of people because they'll be trying to live "by the letter of the Law," and not by grace. Grace is righteousness, but it does not expect to exterminate our sin nature. We simply "overcome sin," rather than exterminate it.

Otherwise, people will live in constant condemnation, every time they have a covetous thought, or some lustful thought, or an interest in something materialistic. We're equipped, by the Spirit, to deal with these things as they come along, rather than completely exterminate them, as you teach. You say "it's easy," but in my view, that would be living in denial, or living on an island.

The command to "be perfect" is simply a call to live in true obedience to God's word, rather than by some false standard. The Pharisees lowered the bar for righteousness by seeking to be perfect on their own, without the help of God's Spirit. True obedience relies upon the grace of God. That is "being perfect," according to Jesus.

Look at the thread that I gave the link to.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-meaning-of-mature.202005/

The one who is "perfect", according to Hebrews 10:1-3, will have no more conscience of sins.

Now, either they are not sinning any more or else they have become psychotic. Because if they are continuing in sin and yet have no more conscience of sins that indicates a psychosis.

But if they are not sinning any more, then one can have a good conscience and also have a clear conscience. They do not feel guilty any more because they are not guilty any more.

 

[justbyfaith]

Rather, it's heretical to claim you can be justified by works.

Which is not what I am claiming.

 

[justbyfaith]

To imply we can be perfect *at any time* is to claim perfection by works, and this belief was prohibited in Christian history.

A person is not justified by their performance by any means.

However, one who has been justified is set free from sin and now has the Holy Ghost...so it is possible that they will begin to live a perfect life as they walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit...the righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in them (Romans 8:4).

And if the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in them, they are set free from the practice of sinning; since sin is the transgression of the law; and fulfilling the righteousness of the law is the opposite of that.

They walk in this victory and freedom as the result of having been justified and not in order to be justified.

 

[Charlie24]

I believe that it is possible to never sin again because sin no longer holds power over us.

1 John 3:6 tells us that the one who abides in Him sinneth not. And 1 John 2:17 tells us that we can abide in Him for ever more.

Therefore it is possible to "sin not" "for ever more".

Are you a member of a Wesleyan Church? They hold to this "entire sanctification" thing where one can reach the point of no longer sinning in this life, at least as I remember.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you a member of a Wesleyan Church? They hold to this "entire sanctification" thing where one can reach the point of no longer sinning in this life, at least as I remember.

I once attended a Nazarene Church and got my doctrine from there.

I currently attend a Calvary Chapel which does not agree with my doctrine on this matter.

However, when I attended the Nazarene Church, they showed me their doctrine in the scriptures and so I believe that doctrine until or unless someone can show me how the scriptures that were shown me are somehow invalid...which I don't think is ever going to happen.

 

[Charlie24]

I once attended a Nazarene Church and got my doctrine from there.

I currently attend a Calvary Chapel which does not agree with my doctrine on this matter.

However, when I attended the Nazarene Church, they showed me their doctrine in the scriptures and so I believe that doctrine until or unless someone can show me how the scriptures that were shown me are somehow invalid...which I don't think is ever going to happen.

I'm afraid someone has already shown you!

Phil. 3:11-12

"If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

Paul is saying here he has not attained to the resurrection! That means he has not yet been changed and become perfect which takes place at the resurrection.

Then he admits, neither am I already perfect, but I pursue Christlikeness and will one day receive it.

If Paul could not achieve this perfection, how in the world do you think you can?

 

[randyk]

Look at the thread that I gave the link to.

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-meaning-of-mature.202005/

I'd rather deal with your arguments here than be referred elsewhere. You keep quoting verses that talk about the need to not *practice sin,* which has nothing whatsoever to do with being sinless. It is well understood that none of us is sinless, which of course all of the apostles stated. And so, you twist the idea of living in righteousness to mean "living in perfection." This is going to seriously hurt you brother, because you'll end up in condemnation ultimately.

The one who is "perfect", according to Hebrews 10:1-3, will have no more conscience of sins.

Heb 10.The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with losing any "consciousness of sin!" It is an argument that we are *always* conscious of our sin, since those under the Law were constantly reminded, by their sacrifices for their sins, that they were guilty of those sins.

In the same way, every time we pray the Lord's Prayer, confessing our sins, we are ever conscious of our innate sinfulness and need for mercy. But being that we live by grace, and produce the righteousness of grace, we know that our righteousness comes from Christ as a perfect being and covers our imperfections. This is the righteousness of grace, a virtue that flows from Christ to us, and is replicated by us through his Spirit, and yet issues with all of our flaws, which are forgiven and cleansed.

What the passage above says is that the Law, as it was being practiced, showed Israel that their forgiveness was temporary, and that eternal life remained elusive until Christ could come and make a final sacrifice for sin. Temporary sacrifices only bring forgiveness temporarily, until the very next moment our sin nature is exposed. But an eternal sacrifice covers our entire sin nature, enabling us to live for God and partake of His righteousness *by grace.*

Now, either they are not sinning any more or else they have become psychotic. Because if they are continuing in sin and yet have no more conscience of sins that indicates a psychosis.

The psychosis will come for you if you go on living a lie! You have a sin nature, and your abiding in Christ's righteousness will not erase that. You need to live in righteousness *by grace,* so that you qualify to live for God *despite your flaws!*

But if they are not sinning any more, then one can have a good conscience and also have a clear conscience. They do not feel guilty any more because they are not guilty any more.

You have a good conscience both because you are living an obedient life and because you repent of your shortcomings. You need *both,* brother!

To be "perfect" means to be "in obedience." It does not mean to be obedient and sinless. Jesus viewed perfection as obedience to God's word. But under the Law obedience to God's word never meant to be sinless. It only meant to carry out what God knew we were capable of, even in our sin nature.