You don't understand anything about that seal. When Jesus opens the 6th seal, where does he go?
How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church
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You don't understand anything about that seal. When Jesus opens the 6th seal, where does he go?
Mentioning scripture then making wild claims about them is the sign of a false teacher. No actual scripture is shown and used. Also, the 6th seal IS NOT when Christ returns. It only describes the future event. Everyone can see that Christ is in heaven while opening the 6th and 7th seal. No second coming takes place at that time so seeing everyone in the eternity in the next chapter is not evidence of a pretrib rapture.
Postrib rapture doctrine is mainly "anti ptretrib" rapture.
And in their doctrine they have no verses!
not a one!!!
Zero
They have discovered that venom is better than verses. We will rarely if ever see venom directed at other views of the Rapture, but the vitriol against the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is something to behold. Which also means that it must be true. Whatever is true is generally under attack.
mat 25 is the unmistakeable vivid picture of the rapture.
Jesus comes on millions of horses and kills a devil man along with the 10 virgins.
Oh,wait....
there are no horses,no warriors,no destroyed earth,and no blood bath.
ooops...the second coming must be another event apart from the rapture
lets assume the rapture is postrib and in this rapture there are millions of horses and Jesus is on his way with weapons' to destroy the AC and his army.
where would we find that in the bible?
It is a debate tactic to offend ones opponent and pull them into some rabbit trail.
make him go against the bible.
it is very easy to do.
he will not address you honestly at that point.
it is a tactic
This is getting really tiresome. So let's look at John 14:1-3 and also see if there is any mention of this happening AFTER the Tribulation, or Christ coming at the same time to destroy His enemies at the Second Coming.
DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TROUBLE
Let not your heart be troubled:
JESUS IS GOD AND KNOWS ALL THINGS
ye believe in God, believe also in me.
HEAVEN HAS MANSIONS RESERVED FOR THE SAINTS
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.
CHIRST HAS ALREADY GONE TO HEAVEN TO PREPARE A PLACE
I go to prepare a place for you.
JESUS WILL COME AGAIN AT THE RAPTURE
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,
CHRIST WILL COME PERSONALLY TO TAKE THE CHURCH TO HEAVEN
and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Did Jesus say "I will come again after you have gone through the Tribulation, and only then will I receive you unto myself?"
You mean like, as in your posts that have no scripture ever showing a pre-trib rapture.
i am always posting Scripture that does not need any words added or taken away.
SEE HERE - "While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” Matt 24:3
Matt 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Now Brother Absolutely, Is it your religion to refute Christ?
Can you find a 'pre-trib' gathering/rapture in Matthew chapter 24 ???
How about 1 Thessalonians? Search the Letter Paul wrote and see if he even says just one time -"you will be pre-trib rapture before the Resurrection."
How about Paul who wrote 2 Thessalonians and told them that NO ONE will be 'left behind' and the man of sin comes before the LORD's Coming.
What about the Apostle John who agrees with the LORD and Paul - 1 John 2:14-19
We can also go to James chapter 5 which clearly states the suffering and patience of the Prophet Job as an example to follow as we wait for the LORD's Coming.
You don't understand that verse at all.
Jesus said, "And if I go and prepare a place for you" that is regarding those who die while Christ is in heaven. Jesus will eventually leave heaven: "I will come again" That is the second coming and here is the important thing: "I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
So where is Christ and all the saved Christians? Earth.
"I will come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
This is what Jesus said. This is what you think he said:
"I will come again and receive you unto myself AND TAKE YOU BACK TO HEAVEN; that where I am, there ye may be also."
He never said when he came back, that he was taking anyone to heaven. He comes again to Earth and where he is on Earth is where the church will be.
If you can't read the verse correctly, how can you possibly understand it?? You can't. Pre-trib is a man made, non-biblical, Eisegesis filled nonsense doctrine.
Please post the next misunderstood pre-trib verse so I can show you your next error.
take a whiff of this;I agree. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 speak of a prophecied future return of Christ that has yet to be fulfilled up until this present day. Therefore, it certainly includes the church as people who are His elect. The gathering of the elect from the earth to the heavens, after the tribulation, is the rapture.
That's the strength of the post-tribulation rapture, it's plainly stated and doesn't require interpretation to understand. Whereas the pre-tribulation rapture often defers to Daniel's 70th week, causing much speculation and debate about what it means.
Furthermore, no where does it say a pre-tribulation gathering of the elect occurs in the Bible. If that existed, it would create a myriad of contradictions and theological errors that are difficult for pre-tribbers to reconcile without altering their hermeneutics of the Bible to try to shoehorn in the pre-trib.
As a result, the pre-tribs greatest weaknesses are: isn't plainly stated in scripture, isn't intuitive from reading the Bible, and isn't present in the earliest church teachings.
Pre-trib doesn't pass the smell test.
mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Ahem...the preflood removal of half his people.
Do you realize you need that dynamic to be post flood?????
You NEED NOAH gathered and removed post flood,....but not only that...you need him to rise in the air and immediatey return,all in a post flood setting????
have you tried to make that fit?????
Your theory does not void the following;
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
That pesky bible is framing the rapture pretrib.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Pssst...that frames the TIMING as pre judgement.
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
HUH????? cant be.....we need it to be after sodom destroyed...remember???? lot needs to be gathered after judgement.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Oh plese mr bible...not more prejudgement rapture dynamics
cant we just have one postrib rapture verse, mr bible??????
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Oh no...not again...
IN THAT NIGHT?????
The pretrib rapture again??????
Man that bible can sure destroy mans made up doctrine
take a whiff of this;I agree. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 speak of a prophecied future return of Christ that has yet to be fulfilled up until this present day. Therefore, it certainly includes the church as people who are His elect. The gathering of the elect from the earth to the heavens, after the tribulation, is the rapture.
That's the strength of the post-tribulation rapture, it's plainly stated and doesn't require interpretation to understand. Whereas the pre-tribulation rapture often defers to Daniel's 70th week, causing much speculation and debate about what it means.
Furthermore, no where does it say a pre-tribulation gathering of the elect occurs in the Bible. If that existed, it would create a myriad of contradictions and theological errors that are difficult for pre-tribbers to reconcile without altering their hermeneutics of the Bible to try to shoehorn in the pre-trib.
As a result, the pre-tribs greatest weaknesses are: isn't plainly stated in scripture, isn't intuitive from reading the Bible, and isn't present in the earliest church teachings.
Pre-trib doesn't pass the smell test.
mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Ahem...the preflood removal of half his people.
Do you realize you need that dynamic to be post flood?????
You NEED NOAH gathered and removed post flood,....but not only that...you need him to rise in the air and immediatey return,all in a post flood setting????
have you tried to make that fit?????
Your theory does not void the following;
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
That pesky bible is framing the rapture pretrib.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Pssst...that frames the TIMING as pre judgement.
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
HUH????? cant be.....we need it to be after sodom destroyed...remember???? lot needs to be gathered after judgement.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Oh plese mr bible...not more prejudgement rapture dynamics
cant we just have one postrib rapture verse, mr bible??????
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Oh no...not again...
IN THAT NIGHT?????
The pretrib rapture again??????
Man that bible can sure destroy mans made up doctrine
Jesus misspoke at the last supper?
All BEAUTIFUL Scripture CLEARLY showing that His People are not appointed to His wrath.
You did not show one 'pre-trib' verse, not one. You did show PRE-WRATH deliverance as God promises to those who are His.
From Genesis to Revelation - We will suffer Tribulation/Persecution/Death in this world, but not the wrath of God.
Does your religion teach to oppose Christ and His words?
I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take courage; I have overcome the world!” John 16
Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. Matt 24:9
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28
Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days. Be faithful even unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Revelation 2:10
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
You were saying?
We are ALL grafted into the Jewish Tree. But we are Gentiles. That will not change until we get resurrection bodies.
Here is a tip for understanding the end times: there are THREE groups that God speaks of and to:
1. The Jews
2. The church - mostly Gentile
3. The nations
If one finds a verse pointed to the Jews, and applies it to the church, their theory will be in error.
If a Jew finds a scripture pointed to the Jews and imagines it is for the church, their theory will be in error.
The truth is, the bible is a Jewish book. God allowing the Gentiles to partake came about because Israel rejected their Messiah.
Acts 15:14
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
You can rant and rave, and call people names, imagine they lie, etc, but the truth remains the truth: the church age we are in is only a parenthesis inserted into Jewish time.
Daniel wrote in a gap in which we are now in.
Dan 9:
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The written in gap is in bolded print. It is an unstated period of time BETWEEN the Jewish 69 weeks and the Jewish 70th week. For the church age, blindness in part has been put upon the Jews and God's focus has been the Gentile church. But the moment of the pretrib rapture, and TIME will go right back to the Jewish time to finish out the 70 weeks.
In other words, the Gentile church DOES NOT FIT into the 70th week which is written to be for the Jews.
You can hammer, you can rant, you can pound, you can post; but the Gentile church will NOT FIT into the Jewish time of the 70th week. That is JEWISH time. God's focus will be on the JEWS.
Now, having said that, if you are determined to see the Beast, commanded to take the mark, and lose your head, I believe God will honor your faith. My biggest question is, WHY lose your head, when God has made a way of escape? Have you never read?
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The choice is before you: believe in the pretrib rapture and escape with the church - OUT of God's wrath and to your mansion in heaven. That way you will be there for the marriage and supper.
Or, you can continue as you are, get left behind, because that is what you are believing for, and either take the mark or lose your head.
I wonder which road you will take? Jesus is coming pretrib and will appear ONLY to those who are looking for Him. Can you honestly say you are looking for and expecting Him TOMORROW or TONIGHT?
Why then do you not believe John? He tells us when God's wrath begins.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Your theory FORCES a rearranging of this 6th seal to come after Rev. 19!
"ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology to fit, is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.
God starts His wrath with the DAY of His wrath at the 6th seal, then begins the 70th week at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet. All trumpets and vials come with His wrath for they are a part of the DAY of His wrath. It is written that the vials are FILLED with His wrath, so you will have to do more rearranging. Why not just throw your theories into the trash and form a new theory from Revelation AS WRITTEN?
It's real simple for you to do: Just realize and understand that the gathering in Matthew 24 will be God gathering all the remaining descendants of Jacob who have survived the days of GT - gathering them all back to Israel AS HE HAS PROMISED.
See how simple it is?
That's such a false doctrine:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Jesus CANNOT return to gather the church until the falling away and revealing of man of sin happens and those things are directly related to the Great Tribulation. You are teaching in direct contradiction to the teaching of the Apostle Paul. The antichrist can come tomorrow or tonight and he is a false Christ imitating Christ so he will definitely have an imitation rapture for those who so eagerly desire it at any time. Beware of wanting a rapture at the wrong time!
I respond to what I see.
Errors happen.
NP.
That is a purposed trick of the new age religion folks so I am tuned. Not saying that was.