How close is too close?
- Thread starter Lanolin
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apparently was quite common for royalty to marry their cousins and extremely wealthy people like the Rosthchilds
I first read about it in Gone with the Wind where Melanie marries her cousin Ashley. Scarlett then marries Melanies brother Charles so they become sister in laws.
In that story much is made of how different Scarlett and Ashley are and that their 'love' is impossible, but Ashley and Melanie are 'alike' and so its ok because the Wilkes and Hamiltons are always marrying their cousins. I dont think they are first cousins though.
Rhett seems totally unrelated to any of the characters, and Scarletts mother originally wanted to marry a Frenchman, but settled for Irish Gerald instead. Because they are so unalike, it causes trouble for their offspring though...Scarletts somewhat split personality is explained because of her mothers refined/genteel French ancestry and her fathers Irish temper. Though her sisters also inherit this, but not to the same marked degree.... though it is said that all three of her brothers died young in infancy, So I think that explains why she couldnt really be a 'lady' as there were no sons to inherit Tara. Oh but then she steals her sisters boyfriend before marrying Rhett. Huh
Of course this is all fiction...but its the only book other than the Bible that talked about cousins marrying as if it was normal...but it seems like its illegal in some parts of the US.
I first read about it in Gone with the Wind where Melanie marries her cousin Ashley. Scarlett then marries Melanies brother Charles so they become sister in laws.
In that story much is made of how different Scarlett and Ashley are and that their 'love' is impossible, but Ashley and Melanie are 'alike' and so its ok because the Wilkes and Hamiltons are always marrying their cousins. I dont think they are first cousins though.
Rhett seems totally unrelated to any of the characters, and Scarletts mother originally wanted to marry a Frenchman, but settled for Irish Gerald instead. Because they are so unalike, it causes trouble for their offspring though...Scarletts somewhat split personality is explained because of her mothers refined/genteel French ancestry and her fathers Irish temper. Though her sisters also inherit this, but not to the same marked degree.... though it is said that all three of her brothers died young in infancy, So I think that explains why she couldnt really be a 'lady' as there were no sons to inherit Tara. Oh but then she steals her sisters boyfriend before marrying Rhett. Huh
Of course this is all fiction...but its the only book other than the Bible that talked about cousins marrying as if it was normal...but it seems like its illegal in some parts of the US.
well the only book I'd read anyway...not that Ive read all the books there might be on it lol
Scarletts vigorous or vital personality seems attributed to her being more of a hybrid than Melanie and Ashleys more inbred lineage. But who knows. Is it better to pair with your opposite DNA counterpart than someone who you have TOO much in common with.
Scarletts vigorous or vital personality seems attributed to her being more of a hybrid than Melanie and Ashleys more inbred lineage. But who knows. Is it better to pair with your opposite DNA counterpart than someone who you have TOO much in common with.
One of David's sons "loved" his sister as he was plotting to rape her, too. Pretty tragic.
It's not really fair "payback".... But I bet their sister never got raped again
. Gangster justice. Not really God's way, but nobody's perfect.
Incest is a super weird topic to me. Not because of today's social stigma- but it's weird because... if God made all humanity from Adam and Eve... then "incest" isn't inherently immoral. It's immoral, because it violates commandment- but people act like it's inherently immoral and disgusting. I would even wager that the "genetics" cause and effect is backwards. He didn't command it because of genetic repercussions- There were genetic repercussions because he commanded it.
So, if it's immoral because it violates commandment- God's commandments always have a purpose- even if he doesn't say what it is- they were, and are, always meant to accomplish something. I suppose if brothers and sisters could marry and have normal kids then any couple could make a nation out of themselves, and that wasn't what God wanted. Hard tellin.
It's not really fair "payback".... But I bet their sister never got raped again
. Gangster justice. Not really God's way, but nobody's perfect. Incest is a super weird topic to me. Not because of today's social stigma- but it's weird because... if God made all humanity from Adam and Eve... then "incest" isn't inherently immoral. It's immoral, because it violates commandment- but people act like it's inherently immoral and disgusting. I would even wager that the "genetics" cause and effect is backwards. He didn't command it because of genetic repercussions- There were genetic repercussions because he commanded it.
So, if it's immoral because it violates commandment- God's commandments always have a purpose- even if he doesn't say what it is- they were, and are, always meant to accomplish something. I suppose if brothers and sisters could marry and have normal kids then any couple could make a nation out of themselves, and that wasn't what God wanted. Hard tellin.
I dont quite understand incest esp from the beginning where Cain found his wife...unless God did the trick again of making one from his rib.
But things went pretty much downhill from there which was why God had to send a flood. It seems that Noah and his three sons already had wives and in their lineage sisters and daughters are not mentioned or named.
I'd like to know what happend to Dinah after her boyfriend/rapist family got massacred...
But things went pretty much downhill from there which was why God had to send a flood. It seems that Noah and his three sons already had wives and in their lineage sisters and daughters are not mentioned or named.
I'd like to know what happend to Dinah after her boyfriend/rapist family got massacred...
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Genesis Chapter 38
Judah sleeps with his daugher-in-law Tamar and gets her pregnant, she has twins.
Later on in Leviticus, its forbidden to do this, unlike the cousin relationships. Tamars excuse was that Shelah wasnt given to her as Judah had promised. Onan also wouldnt give her children. Note that, Tamar didnt have to marry Onan or Shelah, just was told to have sex with them.
I guess if you marry one brother (eldest brother Er) and he dies, the next in line gets to have you.
I dont know if thats common these days for people to marry and then if they become widowed, then go on to their sister or brothers in laws. I suppose it keeps it all in the family....but if you are an only child...its all on you.
Note..Judah chose Tamar to be Er's wife. Er had no say. Judah did choose a cannanite woman to be his wife, which is strange that Isaac didnt choose his wife for him, seeing they werent supposed to marry canaanite women. But then his sons ended up doing evil. Its not said where Tamar came from.
Judah sleeps with his daugher-in-law Tamar and gets her pregnant, she has twins.
Later on in Leviticus, its forbidden to do this, unlike the cousin relationships. Tamars excuse was that Shelah wasnt given to her as Judah had promised. Onan also wouldnt give her children. Note that, Tamar didnt have to marry Onan or Shelah, just was told to have sex with them.
I guess if you marry one brother (eldest brother Er) and he dies, the next in line gets to have you.
I dont know if thats common these days for people to marry and then if they become widowed, then go on to their sister or brothers in laws. I suppose it keeps it all in the family....but if you are an only child...its all on you.
Note..Judah chose Tamar to be Er's wife. Er had no say. Judah did choose a cannanite woman to be his wife, which is strange that Isaac didnt choose his wife for him, seeing they werent supposed to marry canaanite women. But then his sons ended up doing evil. Its not said where Tamar came from.
sorry not Isaac...Jacob. Well both grandad and dad didnt seem to have any influence on Judah's choice of wife. Her name isnt even mentioned, but her fathers name is.
Not sure what the Caananites did that was so bad but it didnt seem enough to stop the Israelites from marrying them. Or maybe there was just nobody else left to marry in their family....
Not sure what the Caananites did that was so bad but it didnt seem enough to stop the Israelites from marrying them. Or maybe there was just nobody else left to marry in their family....
For some reason every time I read this thread I hear a song I once heard when I was a kid.
My uncle is my dad
My uncle is my dad
My sister is the mother
Of the shoop we used to had
The last line was grammatically incorrect, but it rhymed with dad. Oh well.
I also keep hearing that redneck comedian:
"If your family tree does not branch... ya might be a redneck."
My uncle is my dad
My uncle is my dad
My sister is the mother
Of the shoop we used to had
The last line was grammatically incorrect, but it rhymed with dad. Oh well.
I also keep hearing that redneck comedian:
"If your family tree does not branch... ya might be a redneck."
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On the canaanites...why they were cursed stems from when Ham saw his mum and dad (Noah and his wife) having sex (he was the original voyeuer) and told his brothers to go watch them. This tendency towards porn was then passed down to his son Canaan, from which descended the Canaanites.
His brothers (Shem and Japtheth) refused to watch their parents have sex, but Noah found out and cursed Hams descendants.
His brothers (Shem and Japtheth) refused to watch their parents have sex, but Noah found out and cursed Hams descendants.
The OT was pretty raunchy I must say ...lol
While it isnt explicitly said what men did that was so wicked that God had to send a flood, it was probably that the entire human population back then was having orgies all the time since there were no restrictions on who you could have relations with. Everyone took a wife of whoever they pleased from Eves daughters. Didnt matter if they were sisters, aunties, mothers, grandparents, great greandparents, nieces,whatever.
And it didnt seem to matter how many times as men could have more than one wife.
While it isnt explicitly said what men did that was so wicked that God had to send a flood, it was probably that the entire human population back then was having orgies all the time since there were no restrictions on who you could have relations with. Everyone took a wife of whoever they pleased from Eves daughters. Didnt matter if they were sisters, aunties, mothers, grandparents, great greandparents, nieces,whatever.
And it didnt seem to matter how many times as men could have more than one wife.
That's interesting.
Doing some research, rates vary in different studies/sources, but basically the US avg birth defect rate is 3%.
A source I found reads first cousins is 6%.
Mothers under 35 is 2%
Mothers over 35 is 4%
Birth defects is higher in underdeveloped nations. This is attributed to nutrition and prenatal care. Could probably assume some areas have higher environmental toxin levels.
Your source reads 1st cousins defect rate is 4-7%. Why not give one percent instead of a range? Must be looking at specific types of defects rather than one number of defects together. I tried read the source of the study(s), but the source site required membership.
"Birth Defects" depends on what you consider a defect. Another source reads 70% of defect causes is unknown. Research of percentages merely note correlation, not specific causality.
According to one study first-cousin offspring generally have twice the birth defect rate compared to 7th-cousin-plus offspring, and that's a good reason they should not have children, but one has to wonder how large the sample size was, and how defect was defined. The study would need to be studied.
Absent a very large sample size, and diversity of region and other factors, many may not consider the increase defect rate among 1st cousins, from 3% to 6%, to be statistically significant.
Doing some research, rates vary in different studies/sources, but basically the US avg birth defect rate is 3%.
A source I found reads first cousins is 6%.
Mothers under 35 is 2%
Mothers over 35 is 4%
Birth defects is higher in underdeveloped nations. This is attributed to nutrition and prenatal care. Could probably assume some areas have higher environmental toxin levels.
Your source reads 1st cousins defect rate is 4-7%. Why not give one percent instead of a range? Must be looking at specific types of defects rather than one number of defects together. I tried read the source of the study(s), but the source site required membership.
"Birth Defects" depends on what you consider a defect. Another source reads 70% of defect causes is unknown. Research of percentages merely note correlation, not specific causality.
According to one study first-cousin offspring generally have twice the birth defect rate compared to 7th-cousin-plus offspring, and that's a good reason they should not have children, but one has to wonder how large the sample size was, and how defect was defined. The study would need to be studied.
Absent a very large sample size, and diversity of region and other factors, many may not consider the increase defect rate among 1st cousins, from 3% to 6%, to be statistically significant.
With all the birth defect talk, First cousin marriage/sex is not specifically prohibited, but within close family relations is. I think God's prohibition has more to do with problems these relations cause.
Leviticus 18
6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.
7 “‘Do not dishonor your father(H) by having sexual relations with your mother.(I) She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife;(J) that would dishonor your father.(K)
9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister,(L) either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.(M)
10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister;(N) she is your father’s close relative.
13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister,(O) because she is your mother’s close relative.
14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.(P)
15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law.(Q) She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.(R)
16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife;(S) that would dishonor your brother.
17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter.(T) Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister(U) as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness(V) of her monthly period.(W)
20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife(X) and defile yourself with her.
Leviticus 18
6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the Lord.
7 “‘Do not dishonor your father(H) by having sexual relations with your mother.(I) She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife;(J) that would dishonor your father.(K)
9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister,(L) either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.(M)
10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.
11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister;(N) she is your father’s close relative.
13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister,(O) because she is your mother’s close relative.
14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.(P)
15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law.(Q) She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.(R)
16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife;(S) that would dishonor your brother.
17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter.(T) Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister(U) as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness(V) of her monthly period.(W)
20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife(X) and defile yourself with her.
According to scripture its about honoring your relations and their existing bonds rather than 'dont do it because of birth defects'
I think with cousins there is no direct bond so its seems like its not mentioned, the closest prohibition to that is dont have sexual relations /uncover the nakedness of you aunt..verse 14 but says nothing about your aunts sons and daughters.
grandchildren, neices and nephews are forbidden in verse 17
It seems Abraham, Jacob and Judah all would have violated these rules
Abraham married his (half) sister (verse 9)
Jacob had two wives who were both sisters. (verse 18)
Judah had sex with his daughter-in-law (verse 15)
with the birth defect thing....Sarah had Isaac in her old age and it didnt seem he was defective. hmm
Or maybe he was we just didnt know it. Didnt he go blind when he was old? If he had been perfect, the whole Jacob ruse with the venison wouldnt have worked....
I think with cousins there is no direct bond so its seems like its not mentioned, the closest prohibition to that is dont have sexual relations /uncover the nakedness of you aunt..verse 14 but says nothing about your aunts sons and daughters.
grandchildren, neices and nephews are forbidden in verse 17
It seems Abraham, Jacob and Judah all would have violated these rules
Abraham married his (half) sister (verse 9)
Jacob had two wives who were both sisters. (verse 18)
Judah had sex with his daughter-in-law (verse 15)
with the birth defect thing....Sarah had Isaac in her old age and it didnt seem he was defective. hmm
Or maybe he was we just didnt know it. Didnt he go blind when he was old? If he had been perfect, the whole Jacob ruse with the venison wouldnt have worked....
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I recall one of my cousins married (he went overseas and married an american!) though their son was born with a cleft lip. as far as I know my cousin and his wife weren't directly related. Though they only had one son.
Apparently that is caused by genetics but some say its actually caused by a lack of folic acid.
In NZ folic acid has now been mandated to be added to bread to prevent this.
Apparently that is caused by genetics but some say its actually caused by a lack of folic acid.
In NZ folic acid has now been mandated to be added to bread to prevent this.
you can fix a cleft lip with surgery so its not the end of the world, but sadly its not easy for a baby to feed if they are born with this and arent able to afford surgery.
I think with the rise of things like autism and allergies and that seem so common in children though they are not as serious and obvious birth defects like say downs and cerebal palsy that require lifelong care it doesnt seem like a birth defect is even related to genetics since, it can be so random...like couples may have one child with symptoms and the next child they have is completely symptom free. And there is absolutely nothing they can do about this.
All genetics screening can tell you is a risk percentage and its like anything, if you marry theres a 50% chance it will end in divorce, stuff like that, but people still do it.
Even if a child is born with challenges, it would seem its faith that will get parents theough everything so Ive always been kind of sceptical of the way people judge children that arent 'perfect' as if their parents were somehow comitting incest.
I think with the rise of things like autism and allergies and that seem so common in children though they are not as serious and obvious birth defects like say downs and cerebal palsy that require lifelong care it doesnt seem like a birth defect is even related to genetics since, it can be so random...like couples may have one child with symptoms and the next child they have is completely symptom free. And there is absolutely nothing they can do about this.
All genetics screening can tell you is a risk percentage and its like anything, if you marry theres a 50% chance it will end in divorce, stuff like that, but people still do it.
Even if a child is born with challenges, it would seem its faith that will get parents theough everything so Ive always been kind of sceptical of the way people judge children that arent 'perfect' as if their parents were somehow comitting incest.