Misconceptions

[Aaron56]

I once was helping a young woman who, because of an event in her life, was somewhat hysterical. She was weeping and could not be consoled.

Like always, I had been praying to the the Lord and asking Him for direction for my counsel. Often I receive understanding of His love for them of how He desires to minister to them. This time I received a command from the Lord: "Tell her she is a peace-maker." Honestly, I was a bit baffled. In her hysterical state she was everything BUT peaceful. Nevertheless, as I learned from consistent use, I did not hesitate.

"You are a peace-maker."

Immediately she stopped bawling and looked up at me. Then I received more from the Lord.

"You were created not to succumb the ways of the enemy but to destroy them."

The weight of the press lifted from her shoulders and the light returned to her eyes. Her head cleared and we had a deep conversation about her life and Lord.

 

[JaumeJ]

We will no longer require healers come the Kigdom. God is going to give all a pure tongue therefore then the necessity for tonges as a gift will cease. Etc.

Prophecies will come about and no longer be necessary as the above examples. We must not make the simple complex.

 

[Aaron56]

A father brought his son to me for help. From all accounts, this was a a generic "My son does not do his homework" kind of issue. I interviewed the father as his rosy-cheeked son blissfully played in the sand tray.

Like always, I had been praying to the Lord and asking Him for direction for my counsel. During my conversation with him I received "He does not believe the boy is his." At the time, that freaked me out. I was relatively new at hearing from the Lord and the boy LOOKED like a smaller version of the man in front of me. The mother and father had been together well before the boy was conceived. Nothing in the natural told me that this should be true. So, I inquired of the Lord in prayer: "Lord, if this is You, don't let me ignore it. Please tell me the same thing three times." It came to me twice more.

Alright. I asked the man to follow me to the room across the hall from my office so that we could speak privately. He gladly complied.

Now, the guy was a big man. Not fat big but strong big. I'm not a small man but he easily had 75 pounds on me. If there was any confrontation I was disadvantaged save for the protection of the Lord. So, I began...

"I know you said your son has issues with his homework and following directions."

"Yes" he said.

"I am concerned that the main issue affecting your relationship is that you do not believe he is your biological son."

He was sitting across from me, about six feet away. I could see his face flush and his fist clench. I knew my words hit a nerve and that he was suddenly shook.

"What did you say?" he asked. It was more incredulity than a question. At that moment I knew what I spoke was true.

I just repeated the statement, "I am concerned that the main issue affecting your relationship is that you do not believe he is your biological son."

Then a loooong pause ensued as his breathing increased. Even though I knew what I spoke was accurate there was still a greater than 0% chance he wanted to kick my butt right about then.

"Luke" (not his real name), is this true?"

"I have never told anyone that! I've held that in for 11 years (the age of his son). No one knows...." he trailed off, examining me through a squint, his eyes laser-locked onto my own.

"Well..." I explained to him how I pray for everyone when I see them (I wasn't sure he was a believer but it didn't matter) and how I ask God about their lives and experiences. I told him how revelation and understanding from the Lord prompted me to make that statement.

I continued, "..but what is more important than what I know about you is that the Living God knows you personally. He has always known your struggle."

Our conversation was less about his son and more about himself after that. He just realize that the Living God knows his every thought. It was a life-changing revelation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...you're making the unwarranted assumption that Paul was saying they stopped right then and there as he was penning the letter to the Corinthian church. Obviously, that wasn't the case.

No Paul was prophesying about what would happen after Revelation was completed. While the apostles were on earth, all of the gifts were operational. After they passed away, some of those gifts ceased. And that is exactly what Paul had said.

 

[CS1]

Absolutely true. And the KJV has "shall" (not "will") to make that abundantly clear. The question people should ask themselves is "Why did Paul select only three gifts out of about 20 and tell us that they would vanish?" It is because they all relate to divine revelations, and once the Bible was completed there would be no more revelations. That is what the apostle John told us in Revelation.

nope he did not that is a perception but it is not contextual and even HE did say that which he did not He never gave a time frame or said anything as the bible comes to be mean the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not needed anymore. Chapter 12 list far more than 9 gifts



In addition to the 9, there are the gifts of the Didomi which are the equipping gifts of Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors/ teachers. Teacher was added am shocked you did not know that as many like to talk about adding to the text. Pastor and teacher are the same.

 

[SophieT]

This thread is regarding the doctrine of cessationism. It has been covered before, but I thought it was necessary to have a seperate thread for this.

There are common statements made regarding cessationism that I thought I'd like to address:

1- 'You are limiting/denying the power of the Holy Spirit.'

Generally, a cessationist still believes -- according to scripture---the Holy Spirit empowers, directs, guides, rebukes, encourages, is fully God, can be hurt and grieves, is personal, seals a believer, dwells in the midst of a local church in their various functions, and more.

They also generally believe-- according to scripture-- faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts that remain. Some also have partial cessationism with ministry gifts remaining, which altho I believe have also passed... I don't have much of an issue with if people are into these, since they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

The main thing though is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.. causes the gifts to have been completed and finished. If this is the closed canon, with the death of the apostles and destruction of the temple.. then it isn't limiting or denying the Holy Spirit's power.

It is honouring that God has chosen to finish something He wanted for a time and completed it.


2- 'We have knowledge now, so the gifts can't have ceased.'

This one should be obvious, because the context of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is the supernatural gift of knowledge. This is not general knowledge.. it's supernaturally empowered, special, exceptional. So we still have general knowledge now of course.

3- 'The gifts are not being readily shown now because of a lack of faith'

The fact is most churches actually are not cessationists and believe in following all the gifts. Cessationists are not the majority. So not enough faith is not linked to the gifts not being shown.

The other part of this--in scripture-- is when God was using the gifts through people, it wasn't always about the level of their faith. It was God working, objectively, through people with these gifts. Many demonstrations of power and signs to show His work through His people to accomplish particular purposes. When they operated in the gifts-- they just DID IT! Because it was God doing it!

I think there are more things people bring up.. it would be good to know more.








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hey Wattie?

cessationism is not found in scripture. it is not a doctrine. it is a state of belief of unbelieving persons who are convinced that the Bible is perfect (other than the fact that mistakes in translation have been made so it cannot be perfect in the understanding of persons who wish to cancel certain gifts and believe knowledge has passed away)

of course the gift of teaching is still very much desired and most often by those who should abstain from teaching as they will have to give an account of the fact they told people that tongues were demonic or no longer in practice etc etc

the flip side are those who abuse the gifts and want to promote their own personalities rather than the gospel

and there are also those who mistakenly believe that the Bible is a book of suggestions and they are a whole new breed of Christians who only hear from the Holy Spirit and therefore have the truth

BUT the word of God is about the only constant we have in this life

anyway, good questions

 

[wattie]

hey Wattie?

cessationism is not found in scripture. it is not a doctrine. it is a state of belief of unbelieving persons who are convinced that the Bible is perfect (other than the fact that mistakes in translation have been made so it cannot be perfect in the understanding of persons who wish to cancel certain gifts and believe knowledge has passed away)

of course the gift of teaching is still very much desired and most often by those who should abstain from teaching as they will have to give an account of the fact they told people that tongues were demonic or no longer in practice etc etc

the flip side are those who abuse the gifts and want to promote their own personalities rather than the gospel

and there are also those who mistakenly believe that the Bible is a book of suggestions and they are a whole new breed of Christians who only hear from the Holy Spirit and therefore have the truth

BUT the word of God is about the only constant we have in this life

anyway, good questions

The bible in it's original form is perfect.. and reputable translations have preserved this enough to be confident it is still perfect.

But the other thing is .. the word perfect is about something coming to completion and maturity. That is the biblical sense of the word.

 

[CS1]

The bible in it's original form is perfect.. and reputable translations have preserved this enough to be confident it is still perfect.

But the other thing is .. the word perfect is about something coming to completion and maturity. That is the biblical sense of the word.

man did not determine that God did.

 

[wattie]

man did not determine that God did.

Yes that's right.. the bible was complete and canon considered done before a council decided so. The veracity and reliability of the books were such that they were considered authoritative before the council decided on it.

 

[SophieT]

The bible in it's original form is perfect.. and reputable translations have preserved this enough to be confident it is still perfect.

But the other thing is .. the word perfect is about something coming to completion and maturity. That is the biblical sense of the word.

not what I am saying

translations get it wrong

there are differences of opinion on reputable translations

we will not know perfect until we know as we are known

 

[Laura798]

This thread is regarding the doctrine of cessationism. It has been covered before, but I thought it was necessary to have a seperate thread for this.

There are common statements made regarding cessationism that I thought I'd like to address:

1- 'You are limiting/denying the power of the Holy Spirit.'

Generally, a cessationist still believes -- according to scripture---the Holy Spirit empowers, directs, guides, rebukes, encourages, is fully God, can be hurt and grieves, is personal, seals a believer, dwells in the midst of a local church in their various functions, and more.

They also generally believe-- according to scripture-- faith, hope and love are spiritual gifts that remain. Some also have partial cessationism with ministry gifts remaining, which altho I believe have also passed... I don't have much of an issue with if people are into these, since they are very similar to being God given talented at something.

The main thing though is the perfect thing, or that which is perfect.. causes the gifts to have been completed and finished. If this is the closed canon, with the death of the apostles and destruction of the temple.. then it isn't limiting or denying the Holy Spirit's power.

It is honouring that God has chosen to finish something He wanted for a time and completed it.


2- 'We have knowledge now, so the gifts can't have ceased.'

This one should be obvious, because the context of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12-14 is the supernatural gift of knowledge. This is not general knowledge.. it's supernaturally empowered, special, exceptional. So we still have general knowledge now of course.

3- 'The gifts are not being readily shown now because of a lack of faith'

The fact is most churches actually are not cessationists and believe in following all the gifts. Cessationists are not the majority. So not enough faith is not linked to the gifts not being shown.

The other part of this--in scripture-- is when God was using the gifts through people, it wasn't always about the level of their faith. It was God working, objectively, through people with these gifts. Many demonstrations of power and signs to show His work through His people to accomplish particular purposes. When they operated in the gifts-- they just DID IT! Because it was God doing it!

I think there are more things people bring up.. it would be good to know more.








.

Hmm. I really appreciate this post as it is something I wonder about. I find that most churches are cessationist--and dead.

I have tried a couple of Pentecostal churches and the people just seemed to want to be 'special' or ALL were speaking and praying in tongues--I can't believe they ALL have the gift of tongues and furthermore they were not doing it in an orderly way as expressed in Scripture--the scripture evens says if everyone is speaking in tongues won't a visitor think you are crazy (mad)?

Yes, it made me very uncomfortable and it felt fake. I've met a few Pentecostals and they are always talking about how they speak in tongues and everyone who has the Holy Spirit should speak in tongues and bragging about all the people they are bringing to the Lord and all their visions and other such stuff.

I do believe people speak in KNOWN tongues and that they MUST have an interpreter and not speak in gibberish which edifies no one.

To this day I have never once witnessed this in any church I have attended or any bible study, group, etc. I have never witnessed a miraculous healing--I have myself prayed for healing and have been healed. Prayed for my son's lives and they have been saved--I know this was the hand of God. But overall, I do not see this happening in my life and in the lives of those in the church.

I do believe if we have the Holy Spirit--which scripture says is the SAME Power that rose Jesus from the grave then people can still be healed! However, on TV they are all a bunch of Charlatans--even Jesus told people He healed--don't tell anyone. Of course he did heal in public, but it was a demonstration of His deity.

I'm troubled by the deadness of the churches that don't believe in God's power to heal and that people can still speak in a KNOWN tongue--that is in a language that can be interpreted. But it seems there is NO Church to be found following what Scripture says AND believing in our MIRACLE working God. When you are surrounded by this year after year, sadly you yourself don't ACT and BEHAVE as if you believe it--and I am speaking sadly, of myself.

Sorry for not editing....need to have lunch!

 

[wattie]

Hmm. I really appreciate this post as it is something I wonder about. I find that most churches are cessationist--and dead.

I have tried a couple of Pentecostal churches and the people just seemed to want to be 'special' or ALL were speaking and praying in tongues--I can't believe they ALL have the gift of tongues and furthermore they were not doing it in an orderly way as expressed in Scripture--the scripture evens says if everyone is speaking in tongues won't a visitor think you are crazy (mad)?

Yes, it made me very uncomfortable and it felt fake. I've met a few Pentecostals and they are always talking about how they speak in tongues and everyone who has the Holy Spirit should speak in tongues and bragging about all the people they are bringing to the Lord and all their visions and other such stuff.

I do believe people speak in KNOWN tongues and that they MUST have an interpreter and not speak in gibberish which edifies no one.

To this day I have never once witnessed this in any church I have attended or any bible study, group, etc. I have never witnessed a miraculous healing--I have myself prayed for healing and have been healed. Prayed for my son's lives and they have been saved--I know this was the hand of God. But overall, I do not see this happening in my life and in the lives of those in the church.

I do believe if we have the Holy Spirit--which scripture says is the SAME Power that rose Jesus from the grave then people can still be healed! However, on TV they are all a bunch of Charlatans--even Jesus told people He healed--don't tell anyone. Of course he did heal in public, but it was a demonstration of His deity.

I'm troubled by the deadness of the churches that don't believe in God's power to heal and that people can still speak in a KNOWN tongue--that is in a language that can be interpreted. But it seems there is NO Church to be found following what Scripture says AND believing in our MIRACLE working God. When you are surrounded by this year after year, sadly you yourself don't ACT and BEHAVE as if you believe it--and I am speaking sadly, of myself.

Sorry for not editing....need to have lunch!

Thanks for your honest response. I've had the same experience with Pentecostal and Charismatic churches..

Almost everyone wanting to speak in tongues... no interpreters.. and not known languages but gibberish.

Going by the order shown by God thru Paul's writing? Na forget it. Instead of seeing the errors of the Corinthians church . .. many were replicating them.

But yeah.. I know I'm not gonna get much agreement, im just trying to get to the point that cessationists still believe in some spiritual gifts for now.. and most believe the Holy Spirit convicts, encourages.. rebukes. ..guides ..teaches.. can be hurt.. is the Comforter etc..

Its cessation of some gifts .. not the whole shebang.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I've been in "apostolic" churches where everything was done proper and according to God's word. My takeaway—still fake. They've realized they can't keep up the charade of disorderly conduct as in the past, so they've just created a more convincing counterfeit!

 

[Laura798]

Thanks for your honest response. I've had the same experience with Pentecostal and Charismatic churches..

Almost everyone wanting to speak in tongues... no interpreters.. and not known languages but gibberish.

Going by the order shown by God thru Paul's writing? Na forget it. Instead of seeing the errors of the Corinthians church . .. many were replicating them.

But yeah.. I know I'm not gonna get much agreement, im just trying to get to the point that cessationists still believe in some spiritual gifts for now.. and most believe the Holy Spirit convicts, encourages.. rebukes. ..guides ..teaches.. can be hurt.. is the Comforter etc..

Its cessation of some gifts .. not the whole shebang.

I appreciate what you've written, but not sure what you mean by cessation of some gifts. Could you elaborate? My own thinking is if we don't believe in these gifts, then of course they can't manifest--I feel it is the fault of so many churches teaching cessationism of the gifts and also not praying sincerely for gifts or for healing miracles--why? Simply because they've been taught they know longer happen and the leaders don't model a faith in them.

The bible says "If you believe and do not doubt.".

It's like, for example a husband who wants to keep a wife in 'her place'; the kids are grown and she's considering returning to school to become an English professor--and he places doubts in her mind...
"You're too old", "I can't see you doing that." "How are you going to take care of me and the house?" Of course her confidence is going to go down in her ability to accomplish her dream--she may even give it up completely.

 

[wattie]

I appreciate what you've written, but not sure what you mean by cessation of some gifts. Could you elaborate? My own thinking is if we don't believe in these gifts, then of course they can't manifest--I feel it is the fault of so many churches teaching cessationism of the gifts and also not praying sincerely for gifts or for healing miracles--why? Simply because they've been taught they know longer happen and the leaders don't model a faith in them.

The bible says "If you believe and do not doubt.".

It's like, for example a husband who wants to keep a wife in 'her place'; the kids are grown and she's considering returning to school to become an English professor--and he places doubts in her mind...
"You're too old", "I can't see you doing that." "How are you going to take care of me and the house?" Of course her confidence is going to go down in her ability to accomplish her dream--she may even give it up completely.

In regards to some gifts ceasing..

*partial cessationism is generally only the sign gifts of prophecy, tongues and gift of knowlege ceasing. All others remain.. with ministry gifts and others.

*full cessationism.. where I see scripture is showing.. is both ministry and sign gifts passing.. but even this has the gifts of faith, hope and love remaining.

Faith, hope and love as supernaturally empowered by God gifts given to believers.

But I could be persuaded ministry gifts are still for now.. altho I dont know how that would sit with the apostles having died.

The main thing is I'm reasoning from scripture to inform experience.

Even full cessationism has 3 spiritual gifts remaining.

Other thing is .. God still can do miracles of course by His Will. Just not using the gift of miracles.

That miracles are very rare is true in scripture, where the time between miracles and occurrences aren't and everyday thing. The testimony of history now shows they are still very rare. Just look at the affects of covid 19

 

[Laura798]

In regards to some gifts ceasing..

*partial cessationism is generally only the sign gifts of prophecy, tongues and gift of knowlege ceasing. All others remain.. with ministry gifts and others.

*full cessationism.. where I see scripture is showing.. is both ministry and sign gifts passing.. but even this has the gifts of faith, hope and love remaining.

Faith, hope and love as supernaturally empowered by God gifts given to believers.

But I could be persuaded ministry gifts are still for now.. altho I dont know how that would sit with the apostles having died.

The main thing is I'm reasoning from scripture to inform experience.

Even full cessationism has 3 spiritual gifts remaining.

Other thing is .. God still can do miracles of course by His Will. Just not using the gift of miracles.

That miracles are very rare is true in scripture, where the time between miracles and occurrences aren't and everyday thing. The testimony of history now shows they are still very rare. Just look at the affects of covid 19

Again I believe they've ceased simply because we do not seek them out and teach they've ceased. Where does scripture say they've ceased? Scripture says "the same power that rose Jesus from the grave, lives in us."

Note that no church I've been a regular attender of has any sort of prayers for healing --except "pray for my flu', 'pray for my knee'--and then someone prays some generic prayer--obvious the don't think God could even heal that. ): No speaking in tongues either.

Of course there are many charlatans out there doing fake healings--the reason I don't attend Pentacostal Churches (though there may be some good ones out there)--the ones I have visited were often speaking gibberish all at the same time when Scripture tells us plainly they are KNOWN languages --"let 2 or at the most 3--and someone MUST interpret"--nothing at all of some 'heavenly language'

If anyone reading this hasn't looked up Amy Semple McPherson--look her up.

I feel confused about all of it--this is still something I'm trying to understand, so please bear with me.

 

[CS1]

In regards to some gifts ceasing..

*partial cessationism is generally only the sign gifts of prophecy, tongues and gift of knowlege ceasing. All others remain.. with ministry gifts and others.

*full cessationism.. where I see scripture is showing.. is both ministry and sign gifts passing.. but even this has the gifts of faith, hope and love remaining.

Faith, hope and love as supernaturally empowered by God gifts given to believers.

But I could be persuaded ministry gifts are still for now.. altho I dont know how that would sit with the apostles having died.

The main thing is I'm reasoning from scripture to inform experience.

Even full cessationism has 3 spiritual gifts remaining.

Other thing is .. God still can do miracles of course by His Will. Just not using the gift of miracles.

That miracles are very rare is true in scripture, where the time between miracles and occurrences aren't and everyday thing. The testimony of history now shows they are still very rare. Just look at the affects of covid 19

God can still do what you say, but HE needs your verifying of God's doing miracles for there to be any at all LOL.

 

[wattie]

Again I believe they've ceased simply because we do not seek them out and teach they've ceased. Where does scripture say they've ceased? Scripture says "the same power that rose Jesus from the grave, lives in us."

Note that no church I've been a regular attender of has any sort of prayers for healing --except "pray for my flu', 'pray for my knee'--and then someone prays some generic prayer--obvious the don't think God could even heal that. ): No speaking in tongues either.

Of course there are many charlatans out there doing fake healings--the reason I don't attend Pentacostal Churches (though there may be some good ones out there)--the ones I have visited were often speaking gibberish all at the same time when Scripture tells us plainly they are KNOWN languages --"let 2 or at the most 3--and someone MUST interpret"--nothing at all of some 'heavenly language'

If anyone reading this hasn't looked up Amy Semple McPherson--look her up.

I feel confused about all of it--this is still something I'm trying to understand, so please bear with me.

Comes down to what causes, or caused sign gifts to cease in particular..

1 Corinthians 13 has that which is perfect, or the perfect thing-- completing the gifts of prophecy, gift of tongues and gift of knowledge.

Ephesians chapter 4.. has 'knowledge of the unity of the faith' as a point in which the Ephesians plus all general christianity coming to a point of unity where they no longer continue in the gifts of ministry... 'unto a perfect man' 'no longer tossed about by every wind of doctrine'.. 'the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ'

This informs experience I think.

 

[wattie]

God can still do what you say, but HE needs your verifying of God's doing miracles for there to be any at all LOL.

Yeah good joke

So what is the objective evidence through history that you know of ?

 

[CS1]

Comes down to what causes, or caused sign gifts to cease in particular..

1 Corinthians 13 has that which is perfect, or the perfect thing-- completing the gifts of prophecy, gift of tongues and gift of knowledge.

Ephesians chapter 4.. has 'knowledge of the unity of the faith' as a point in which the Ephesians plus all general christianity coming to a point of unity where they no longer continue in the gifts of ministry... 'unto a perfect man' 'no longer tossed about by every wind of doctrine'.. 'the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ'

This informs experience I think.