Is the Rapture a lie? Is Zionism a lie?

lawrence101 · Nov 12, 2021

ZNP said:

LOL! Excellent post.

lawrence101 · Nov 12, 2021

saintrose said:

You might want to look up Zechariah 8 , Zion is indeed Jerusalem, mountain of the Lord, city of truth.

kinda · Nov 13, 2021

ZNP here is a thread you can talk about your false doctrines, pre-tribulation rapture.

ZNP · Nov 13, 2021

kinda said:

I am not interested in that thread. You replied to my post calling it false doctrine, you need to back that up and do it here. I have provided numerous NT verses, you can respond to them, you can apologize, you can retract your statement, but if you claim I am teaching false doctrine I will respond.

ZNP · Nov 13, 2021

kinda said:

Can you help explain these verses?

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Abraham asked the Lord "Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" The answer was no.

Enoch was raptured before the flood.

Noah and 7 other souls (signifying the 7 golden lampstands?) entered the ark 1 week prior to the flood (7 years?) that was God's judgement on the Earth.

Jesus told us the end of the age would be as the days of Noah.

The book of Revelation from chapter 2-3 is completely focused on the church age. Chapter 4 begins saying "after this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be heareafter". John is raptured to the throne room, we don't hear of the church until Revelation 19 when it says the church returns again to the Earth as the Bride.

Psalm 18:16 He reached down from on high and took hold of me;
he drew me out of deep waters.
17 He rescued me from my powerful enemy,
from my foes, who were too strong for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my disaster,
but the Lord was my support.
19 He brought me out into a spacious place;
he rescued me because he delighted in me.

The pre tribulation rapture is the Lord rescuing us from a powerful enemy.

Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

1Thessalonians 5:3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

If you are there when the AntiChrist says "peace and safety" you will not escape and yet the Lord told us to pray that we might escape. Hmmm?

Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

This word is to the church in Sardis, they are believers. It seems very obvious from this verse that there are two potential outcomes to the believers, when the Lord returns.

Luke 12:39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

Ready for what? The Lord's return is likened to a thief in the night and He is warning the believers they "need to be ready" because "He will come at an hour when you do not expect Him". Again, two outcomes, one where there are believers who are ready and watching when the Lord returns and one for those believers who are befuddled and are not ready.

surfer14 · Nov 13, 2021

Pre-trib rapture is a psyop. Get everyone mentally ready to escape this big, painful event. And then when that magic exfil never comes then they'll all be completely demoralized and readily beaten. Counting on some kind of rapture in the hopes of getting out of stuff is a gross violation of "hope for the best, plan for the worst."
Jesus went through pain.
Paul went through pain.
Peter went through pain.
Job went through pain.
Pretty much everyone who has ever served God has gone through pain.
So chances are you will go through pain also. Deal with it. We will bring glory to God by going through that pain honorably.

kinda · Nov 13, 2021

surfer14 said:

I have a theory, that the pre-tribulation will be part of the falling away. If Christians believe in this false pre-tribulation doctrine, and it doesn't go as expected, there will be a great disappointment, which could possibly lead to a great falling away. That's all I got to say about it, not gonna waste my time in arguing about false prophesy.

With that said, peace.

The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2&version=NKJV

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mathew+24&version=NKJV

lawrence101 · Nov 13, 2021

kinda said:

I have a theory, that the pre-tribulation will be part of the falling away. If Christians believe in this false pre-tribulation doctrine, and it doesn't go as expected, there will be a great disappointment, which could possibly lead to a great falling away. That's all I got to say about it, not gonna waste my time in arguing about false prophesy.

With that said, peace.

The Great Apostasy
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Thessalonians+2&version=NKJV

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mathew+24&version=NKJV

This post is too easy to debunk was hoping for something tougher.

I have a theory, that the post-tribulation will be part of the falling away. If Christians believe in this false post-tribulation doctrine, and it doesn't go as expected, there will be a great disappointment, which could possibly lead to a great falling away. That's all I got to say about it, not gonna waste my time in arguing about false prophesy.

Blade · Nov 13, 2021

saintrose said:

this is to easy to prove wrong. You didn't search.. Scofield never ever was behind caghtup. Its in the word..Pauls 1st letter told us Jesus coming in the air blah blah blah. Then people like Grant Jeffrey or Perry Stone talked showed people dating back before 300 BC. I found a hymn writer read the scrolls online about Jesus coming before the great tribulation. See it said 400BC and I thought.. oh man thats to late..didn't anyone talk about it. HAHA look how many say 1830 is when it started.. yet you can read about caught up before the great tribulation in 1600..opps.

Anyway reading the 3 pages.. for me forgive me you don't come across as someone asking but someone telling us what you personally believe. If I am wrong forgive me. God as He promised gathered His people from all over the world back in the land He gave them. And as it is also written they became a nation in a day. They were asked for a name.. came back same day "ISRAEL".

If we are His we speak words of life...we see the good the positive in others. We believe all things.. love is? The fruit of the spirit is? Well to talk about preachers people of God you never met never been to their house or prayed with them. You then just based on what you personally like and believe and if that is not the same then duh they are wrong not you.

So much talked about believed yet not one can show the verse in Gods word. It will have speculation and "what that verse really means what Christ was really saying" on and on. I can see pre mid post in the word yet I cannot find the VERSE for just one. Its not there. So since of those times and season only the Father knows and since NO ONE on this planet for over 2000 years now can just pray and ask Christ about.. odd huh He will not tell you something you say is true. So why not live be at peace in this moment He gave you? Why now know the owner is gone and you best be working and watching knowing He will return. Many are not watching they tell us when He is coming.. pass. If His word does not show it I will not follow some man that has all the same INFO I can have.

So RAPTURE we all know means Caught up. It will happen what you don't know is when. And I can not say when He comes if I am not watching not ready He will take me anyway? Oh in this world we will have tribulation.. not the great tribulation or day of the lord. That is going to be on ALL that are in this world. It is on the unrighteous not righteous. There is no place to hide.. no city you can go to this time to be safe. You can't even believe have faith GOD can protect you now! If you can't fully live for Him now you never will then. Why not do it now in the moment He gave you? Let tomorrow take care of itself. Did you know all this TALK was foretold in the word about the last days.

ZNP · Nov 13, 2021

We have a contradiction here

Daniel 7:21, 22 "I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;"

Revelation 13:7 "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Matthew 16:18 I say unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The promise from the Lord is that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church He builds and yet in Revelation we are told that the Antichrist will prevail over the saints. Anyone who thinks there is no pre-tribulation rapture needs to reconcile this contradiction.

surfer14 · Nov 13, 2021

ZNP said:

That's probably the best argument I've heard for the pre-trib rapture. I'm gonna think on that for a little bit.

Ruby123 · Nov 13, 2021

ZNP said:

So when are u thinking the pre trib is now as you have suggested a few dates that have come and gone? I also believe in pre trib and personally can't wait but all the date setters have been terribly wrong so far.

ZNP · Nov 13, 2021

Ruby123 said:

The date that was being presented was pulled off of predictive programming, there was a date that was embedded in many Hollywood movies and music videos and was used repeatedly to suggest a cataclysmic event. That date is not from the Bible but suggested that the elites know something we don't know, a concern supported by the incredible increase in underground bunkers being built for the elites as well as governments building elaborate underground systems.

That number was 9/23 which was interpreted to be September 23, however, September means 7 not 9. The word November means 9. This is mentioned in the Bible that the enemy will mess up the calendar so that he can confuse time.

None of that though is Biblical, however it is something that people should be aware of, the elites seem to be very concerned over this date of 9/23 tied with a cataclysmic event.

So then what does the Bible say:

1. The fig tree prophecy talks about Israel "and all the trees" which refers to the other nations that were also formed after WWI at about the same time as Israel. The Lord says that this generation will not pass away until all things are fulfilled. The only verse in the Bible that seems to define a generation is in Psalm 90 -- 70-80 years. Since Israel was reformed in May 1948 80 years later is May 2028, being the time at which everything that the Lord was referring to in the context of the prophecy will be fulfilled.

2. Most end time teaching considers the last 7 years of this age to be the 70th week in Daniel and the tribulation. This seven years begins with the Antichrist confirming the covenant with the many. Therefore the Antichrist is revealed at the start of the 70th week and according to Paul in his writing to the Thessalonians the Antichrist is not revealed until the Holy Spirit steps aside. However, the Lord told us the time would be shortened otherwise no one would survive. Still it seems to me and to many others that the Antichrist needs to be revealed prior to this May 14th 2022 (I am using the Gregorian calendar for simplicity but in reality these dates should be converted to the Hebrew calendar) otherwise you will have a major conflict in our understanding of the Lord's word with the prophecy in Daniel.

3. There is no prophecy that tells us the date of the rapture and instead the Lord compares this to a woman who is pregnant. You may have a due date, but that is simply a guide and you must be watching. We are commanded by the Lord to watch. He also compares this coming to a thief in the night. The thief would never tell you ahead of time the day and hour he is coming, which is why you must prepare and you must watch. He also compares this to a farmer who again may have a general idea of when to expect the crops to be ripe yet at the same time needs to be watching carefully to know precisely when to harvest.

4 With that in mind it appears that the book of Psalms are prophetic with the first 121 Psalms giving a prophetic reading from 1901 to 2021. (A book was written about the prophecy in the Psalms). In these Psalm 18 is very clearly describing a pre-tribulation rapture. So if we look at 1918 we can get an idea, like watching the trailer to a movie, of the year of this rapture. Two big things took place, you had a worldwide pandemic and you had the end of WWI. Psalm 120 referring to 2020 prays for deliverance from liars, and Psalm 121 refers to the pre-tribulation rapture.

5. The book of Joel also describes a worldwide pandemic in great detail and says that it is a sign that the day of the Lord is at hand. However, the prophecy in Joel cannot refer to the Spanish flu because he describes a global shutdown of the economy as part of this pandemic and also precisely describes social distancing as a key strategy in combating the pandemic.

6. There are other signs as well in the heavens pointing to 2021 as well as wars and rumors of war and earthquakes in various places (the number of earthquakes this year are at least 100x the average for this last century if not 200x).

7. Other prophecies say that a lunar eclipse and a solar eclipse will take place at the start of the Great day of the Lord. We will have two pairs of lunar and solar eclipses per year, and the only one left for 2021 is Nov 19 and Dec 4.

8. Another prophecy Amos 8:10 “And I shall turn your festivals and feasts into mourning And all your songs into dirges (funeral poems to be sung); And I shall cause sackcloth to be put on everyone’s loins And baldness on every head [shaved for mourning]. And I shall make that time like a time of mourning for an only son [who has died], And the end of it shall be like a bitter day. I find it interesting that this is plural, several religious festivals and feasts as well. We really only have one religious festival associated with songs and that is Christmas. We also have a feast at this time called Thanksgiving. Our thanks will be turned to mourning and our Christmas songs will be turned to dirges.

Therefore if this is referring to this year it would fit with many of the prophecies, and many I haven't mentioned if it takes place prior to Thanksgiving which is November 25th.

saintrose · Nov 14, 2021

ZNP said:

Isaiah 66:8 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Jeremiah 30:3 3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity[a] and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.”

Isaiah 43:5-6“Fear not; for I am with thee. I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west. “I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth, even every one that is called by my name…”

Ezekiel 34:11-13 “Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. “As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. “And I will bring them out from the peoples, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land…”

Deuteronomy 30:1-4 “And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, to which the Lord thy God hath driven thee, “And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, “That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations where the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. “If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from there will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from there will he fetch thee.”

The valley of dry bones in Ezekiel 37

11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

Then how do you account for the fact that those in Israel claiming to be Jews don't have Jewish DNA and are not descendants of Abraham?

Something doesn't fit.

saintrose · Nov 14, 2021

Runningman said:

It's a logical fallacy to say that because the word rapture is not used in English Bibles (rapture is actually used in the French Bible I believe) that the rapture is either not in the Bible or is a lie.

Even though there is overwhelming evidence that supports the rapture doctrine, just because the word rapture isn't there doesn't mean it isn't described.

Have you ever researched Scofield?

saintrose · Nov 14, 2021

Omegatime said:

That's part of why it's so hard to navigate the last days - God ordained some as preachers but there are so many doctrines that it's like stepping through land mines trying to find truth.

saintrose · Nov 14, 2021

kaylagrl said:

Not all Catholics are evil/ unsaved. I was a former Catholic.

saintrose · Nov 14, 2021

kaylagrl said:

Just because someone has "biblical training" does not guarantee that they're free from error.

saintrose · Nov 14, 2021

ZNP said:

The date that was being presented was pulled off of predictive programming, there was a date that was embedded in many Hollywood movies and music videos and was used repeatedly to suggest a cataclysmic event. That date is not from the Bible but suggested that the elites know something we don't know, a concern supported by the incredible increase in underground bunkers being built for the elites as well as governments building elaborate underground systems.

That number was 9/23 which was interpreted to be September 23, however, September means 7 not 9. The word November means 9. This is mentioned in the Bible that the enemy will mess up the calendar so that he can confuse time.

None of that though is Biblical, however it is something that people should be aware of, the elites seem to be very concerned over this date of 9/23 tied with a cataclysmic event.

So then what does the Bible say:

1. The fig tree prophecy talks about Israel "and all the trees" which refers to the other nations that were also formed after WWI at about the same time as Israel. The Lord says that this generation will not pass away until all things are fulfilled. The only verse in the Bible that seems to define a generation is in Psalm 90 -- 70-80 years. Since Israel was reformed in May 1948 80 years later is May 2028, being the time at which everything that the Lord was referring to in the context of the prophecy will be fulfilled.

2. Most end time teaching considers the last 7 years of this age to be the 70th week in Daniel and the tribulation. This seven years begins with the Antichrist confirming the covenant with the many. Therefore the Antichrist is revealed at the start of the 70th week and according to Paul in his writing to the Thessalonians the Antichrist is not revealed until the Holy Spirit steps aside. However, the Lord told us the time would be shortened otherwise no one would survive. Still it seems to me and to many others that the Antichrist needs to be revealed prior to this May 14th 2022 (I am using the Gregorian calendar for simplicity but in reality these dates should be converted to the Hebrew calendar) otherwise you will have a major conflict in our understanding of the Lord's word with the prophecy in Daniel.

3. There is no prophecy that tells us the date of the rapture and instead the Lord compares this to a woman who is pregnant. You may have a due date, but that is simply a guide and you must be watching. We are commanded by the Lord to watch. He also compares this coming to a thief in the night. The thief would never tell you ahead of time the day and hour he is coming, which is why you must prepare and you must watch. He also compares this to a farmer who again may have a general idea of when to expect the crops to be ripe yet at the same time needs to be watching carefully to know precisely when to harvest.

4 With that in mind it appears that the book of Psalms are prophetic with the first 121 Psalms giving a prophetic reading from 1901 to 2021. (A book was written about the prophecy in the Psalms). In these Psalm 18 is very clearly describing a pre-tribulation rapture. So if we look at 1918 we can get an idea, like watching the trailer to a movie, of the year of this rapture. Two big things took place, you had a worldwide pandemic and you had the end of WWI. Psalm 120 referring to 2020 prays for deliverance from liars, and Psalm 121 refers to the pre-tribulation rapture.

5. The book of Joel also describes a worldwide pandemic in great detail and says that it is a sign that the day of the Lord is at hand. However, the prophecy in Joel cannot refer to the Spanish flu because he describes a global shutdown of the economy as part of this pandemic and also precisely describes social distancing as a key strategy in combating the pandemic.

6. There are other signs as well in the heavens pointing to 2021 as well as wars and rumors of war and earthquakes in various places (the number of earthquakes this year are at least 100x the average for this last century if not 200x).

7. Other prophecies say that a lunar eclipse and a solar eclipse will take place at the start of the Great day of the Lord. We will have two pairs of lunar and solar eclipses per year, and the only one left for 2021 is Nov 19 and Dec 4.

8. Another prophecy Amos 8:10 “And I shall turn your festivals and feasts into mourning And all your songs into dirges (funeral poems to be sung); And I shall cause sackcloth to be put on everyone’s loins And baldness on every head [shaved for mourning]. And I shall make that time like a time of mourning for an only son [who has died], And the end of it shall be like a bitter day. I find it interesting that this is plural, several religious festivals and feasts as well. We really only have one religious festival associated with songs and that is Christmas. We also have a feast at this time called Thanksgiving. Our thanks will be turned to mourning and our Christmas songs will be turned to dirges.

Therefore if this is referring to this year it would fit with many of the prophecies, and many I haven't mentioned if it takes place prior to Thanksgiving which is November 25th.

I am aware of the building of underground bunkers. What is your opinion as to why the elite are building them? Is it to hide from God's wrath?

So you believe something will happen 9/23?

I wondered where wormwood hitting the earth would come in at. I saw a futuristic map of America split in two and it appears it may have something to do with an asteroid hitting the earth. I'm wondering if that's why the elite built the bunkers.

The prophecy of Joel cannot fit what's happening now as there is no pandemic - it's all likely a ruse. Unless somethping really is being released on us. I went outside and saw the chemtrailing again so they're up to something. I don't know if it's the spraying of graphene oxide to build 'antennas' within us or whether it's for another purpose - that they're actually spraying us with a virus. But something evil is going on. Not long ago we traveled cross country and they were spraying in every state.

Runningman · Nov 14, 2021

saintrose said:

A little bit. I know he popularized dispensationalism, but I find that most of it is disagreeable.

Is the Rapture a lie? Is Zionism a lie?

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