The meaning of "mature"

[justbyfaith]

Naturally, those kinds of errors would pollute doctrines involving numerology, typology, and intentional parallelism...and more.
I hope you're getting the point I'm making. You can't treat certain kinds of doctrine as special, while others are less important.
Man shall live by "every word that proceeds out of the enough of God" (Deut 8). That is God's decree and desire...to observe, meditate on, and proclaim His word of truth, unto the glory of His name. It's all holy doctrine.

There is no numerological significance to numbers that are over 1,000 in the Bible, that I am aware of.

Or, perhaps, the Lord caused there to be a discrepancy between one verse and another because He was not wanting to necessarily denote accuracy as concerning how many horses there were....but if there was a numerological significance, maybe he wanted to portray more than one message as to what that was.

Thanks! That gives me even more faith that the kjv has always been inerrant.

 

[mustaphadrink]

No doubt it can mean more than one thing.

But remember,i showed you one example in another thread where it was used as " mature"

" the owner of the vinyard was patiently waiting for his grapes to mature. Upon tasting them he said "these are perfect."

Mature grapes! Yummy!

 

[Jocund]

See

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-doctrine-of-entire-sanctification.202171/

especially post #1.

The supposition in the post you linked is that the man who sins and the man that is becoming sanctified are mutually exclusive. I don't see that as the case. It is a duality between sinful and sinless natures in the same way as the husk of the wheat is burned and the fruit of the wheat is saved but until that final harvest both coexist together.

I don't think anyone has claimed that being in Christ makes one wholly sinless in all parts (as every Christian still sins), but certainly that part of them in Christ is wholly sinless.

 

[Dino246]

Except that the point that was made has to do with the fact that holiness doctrine is more succinct in the kjv and is watered down in the modern translations.

No, it isn't.

 

[justbyfaith]

The supposition in the post you linked is that the man who sins and the man that is becoming sanctified are mutually exclusive. I don't see that as the case. It is a duality between sinful and sinless natures in the same way as the husk of the wheat is burned and the fruit of the wheat is saved but until that final harvest both coexist together.

I don't think anyone has claimed that being in Christ makes one wholly sinless in all parts (as every Christian still sins), but certainly that part of them in Christ is wholly sinless.

Sounds like gnosticism to me.

That the flesh is sinful and the spirit sinless; so what we do in the flesh doesn't matter; it only matters what we do in the spirit.

Of course we have sin in the flesh; and it is the whole of the person who sins when he sins.

It is possible to walk consistently, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1,4).

We are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

And, therefore, we can walk consistently in freedom and victory for an extended period of time; even for the rrest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

 

[justbyfaith]

No, it isn't.

Consider, for example, 1 Peter 5:10, as it is in the kjv as opposed to as it is in some of the modern translations.

 

[Dino246]

Consider, for example, 1 Peter 5:10, as it is in the kjv as opposed to as it is in some of the modern translations.

Yes; it's clear in the modern translations. It's not watered down at all though.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes; it's clear in the modern translations. It's not watered down at all though.

Yes; something important is clearly removed in some of the modern translations.

 

[Dino246]

Yes; something important is clearly removed in some of the modern translations.

Instead of being persistently obtuse, why don't you present the information, that we may examine it. I'm not going hunting for "something" you claim exists but won't specify.

 

[justbyfaith]

Instead of being persistently obtuse, why don't you present the information, that we may examine it. I'm not going hunting for "something" you claim exists but won't specify.

Okay, if you insist.

kjv:
1Pe 5:10, But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

NIV:
1Pe 5:10, And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

ESV:
1Pe 5:10, And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

NASB20:
1Pe 5:10, After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

The kjv and the NASB20 have it right; while the NIV and the ESV water it down to subvert the doctrine of holiness in the verse.

Please note that in the discussion at hand, we are discussing the fact that other translations do subvert the doctrine of holiness and that this is the reason why those who want to have their cake and eat it too; who want salvation without surrendering their sins to God; gravitate towards versions that might teach them that they can be saved without having to have a change in their lives (repentance)...they heap to themselves teachers (in the translators of modern versions) to tell them what their itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).

 

[Dino246]

Okay, if you insist.

kjv:
1Pe 5:10, But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

NIV:
1Pe 5:10, And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

ESV:
1Pe 5:10, And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

NASB20:
1Pe 5:10, After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.

The kjv and the NASB20 have it right; while the NIV and the ESV water it down to subvert the doctrine of holiness in the verse.

Please note that in the discussion at hand, we are discussing the fact that other translations do subvert the doctrine of holiness and that this is the reason why those who want to have their cake and eat it too; who want salvation without surrendering their sins to God; gravitate towards versions that might teach them that they can be saved without having to have a change in their lives (repentance)...they heap to themselves teachers (in the translators of modern versions) to tell them what their itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).

I disagree with your comments on the evidence, I disagree with your assertion of motive, and I disagree with your conclusion in its entirety. It's all empty opinion.

 

[justbyfaith]

I disagree with your comments on the evidence, I disagree with your assertion of motive, and I disagree with your conclusion in its entirety. It's all empty opinion.

You have your opinion because you are among those who are condemned by my opinion on the matter.

These are your only two options: accept my opinion and change your life; or keep the life you have now by rejecting my opinion.

People tend to not want to give up their lives into surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

However, it is written,

Mat 16:25, For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mar 8:35, For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luk 9:24, For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luk 17:33, Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

 

[Jocund]

Sounds like gnosticism to me.

That the flesh is sinful and the spirit sinless; so what we do in the flesh doesn't matter; it only matters what we do in the spirit.

Of course we have sin in the flesh; and it is the whole of the person who sins when he sins.

It is possible to walk consistently, not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1,4).

We are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

And, therefore, we can walk consistently in freedom and victory for an extended period of time; even for the rrest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17).

I'm not terribly familiar with gnosticism as a concept. Based on a brief wiki read-through, it seems like it can mean a range of things.

The perspective I presented was more driven by an emphasis on the fundamental question "What is self?"

We sometimes see strange scenarios that don't necessarily fall neatly into a category of "saved" or "not saved". What happens to people with multiple personality disorders? Amnesia? Alzheimer's? If self is actually composed of smaller components of cognition that are working together or against each, what then are we to say about "self"? It's more of an observation of "the wolf you feed" and not so much about abstract mysticism. Would those count as biblical doublemindedness? It's not necessarily clear.

The dividing line here isn't necessarily flesh vs spirit, as not all spiritual things are pure or free from sin. But for those elements of our spirit that are in Christ, they would be free from sin. To me it seems foolhardy to suppose that anyone can be perfectly in Christ. We all continually seek salvation, as the time for salvation is always "now". We all fall short, by losing our temper, by trespassing against neighbours, by generally failing to love God with all of our heart and loving our neighbours as ourselves. It may be only by occasion, but it is a fundamental part of our human nature to fall short of God's perfection. It is possible to disagree with that sentiment, but I don't think it can convincingly be said that anyone will be completely sinless after being in Christ. The final step of that "reborn again" concept must be the fulfilment of that purification which isn't necessarily completed until the day of Judgement. I would be hesitant to assume that anyone but God alone could truly be without sin... free from the penalty of sin maybe, but I don't think any of us have encountered a perfect common person. I don't think anyone can honestly self-assess themselves to be perfectly without sin. But there are moments when we have goodness that works through us, when God works through us. Only God is good.

The inevitability of sin is more or less just a philosophy or observation, but my understanding is that it was a core concept held by the early church. We continually remind ourselves with the creeds to seek forgiveness for our sins, to seek forgiveness for our trespasses and forgive those that trespass against us. I'm all ears for a different interpretation, but the rejection of the concept of the inevitability of sin doesn't currently make sense to me.

 

[justbyfaith]

The concept of the inevitability of sin is in fact a false doctrine and heresy.

For we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

We are not made "sinless" when we come to Christ (1 John 1:8); but we can be made "perfect" (Hebrews 10:14 (kjv)).

This happens when the element of sin on the inside of us is rendered dead, crucified (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14). Again, we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)).

 

[Dino246]

You have your opinion because you are among those who are condemned by my opinion on the matter.

Your opinion has neither authority nor power to do any such thing.

These are your only two options: accept my opinion and change your life; or keep the life you have now by rejecting my opinion.

Your arrogance is incredible.

People tend to not want to give up their lives into surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

Christians already have done so. Your opinion has nothing to do with it.

 

[Lafftur]

Consider the following.

Heb 10:1, For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2, For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

Now, considering that the word "perfect" actually means "mature" we need to understand that if anyone is mature, they will have no more conscience of sins.

Therefore, are they simply oblivious to what is in all reality there in their lives?

Consider.

1Jo 1:7, But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we are walking in the light, will not any sin that is present in our lives be exposed to the light and brought out into the open?

Even as it is written,

Jhn 3:20, For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21, But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Therefore, if I am walking in the light, and am not sanctified in the sense of being set free from sin, my sin will be exposed; and I will continue to have a conscience of sins.

If I am mature, I do not any longer have any conscience of sins. Which indicates that perfect, in Hebrews 10:1 (and everywhere else in scripture) does indeed mean "perfect".

Consider also the following.

Col 1:21, And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22, In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Jde 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

"holy", "unblameable", "unreproveable".

"faultless"

Are you going to come up with alternate meanings for these words also? Do these words also not mean "perfect"?

I suppose that we can cross off holy...for that has been re-defined as "set apart" (however in this re-definition, the word "holy" has been stripped of its meaning, impaho).

One might be able to cross off "unblameable" as referring to outward righteousness and holiness (except that God, in Hebrews 4:13, tells us that everything is open and naked to His sight; and this also refers to the inward parts of a man, which are either righteous or unrighteous (Matthew 23:25-28).

I don't think that anyone can cross off "unreprovaeable" or "faultless" however.

The one word you did not use to describe “perfect” is…

LOVE!

Our maturity will always equal the love we have for God, others and ourselves.

Love….is the fulfillment…there is no law that love cannot fulfill.

 

[justbyfaith]

The one word you did not use to describe “perfect” is…

LOVE!

Our maturity will always equal the love we have for God, others and ourselves.

Love….is the fulfillment…there is no law that love cannot fulfill.

Good point.

Maybe next time.

Of course love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

And it is also shed abroad in the heart of the born again Christian (Romans 5:5).

 

[justbyfaith]

Your opinion has neither authority nor power to do any such thing.

That's what you think.

Your arrogance is incredible.

I'm humble as cherry pie.

Christians already have done so.

Yes, but have you?

Your opinion has nothing to do with it.

What opinion?

 

[Lafftur]

Good point.

Maybe next time.

Of course love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:8-10, 1 John 5:3, 2 John 1:6).

And it is also shed abroad in the heart of the born again Christian (Romans 5:5).

True! I’ll know you are mature in Christ when I see your love for your enemy.

Our battle in the physical realm is to love…even our physical enemies.

Our battle of warfare is in the spiritual realm against the unseen enemy - that’s really who we’re fighting!

 

[justbyfaith]

True! I’ll know you are mature in Christ when I see your love for your enemy.

Our battle in the physical realm is to love…even our physical enemies.

Our battle of warfare is in the spiritual realm against the unseen enemy - that’s really who we’re fighting!

Amen sister.

I believe that if you keep reading, you will see my love for my enemies on these boards.

Even when people come against me, I do seek to respond to them with kindness and my every word to them is written with a desire to make their calling and election sure.