THE RAPTURE/END OF DAYS

[iTheophilus]

Revelation 14:14 is also talking about the 7th Trump, the Day of the Lord, the Second Coming. Wow! What an awesome day that will be!

 

[Jocund]

You mean Revelation, not Romans right? I can't remember this term being used in Romans.

But when it is used, yes it is referring to Jesus, The Messiah- "One who looks like a son of man"
He was seen before his NT incarnation. Most notably in Daniel: 7

13 ‘In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

Typo on my part. Good catch. Rev 14:14 was the intended reference.

Good rebuttal too. It still isn't an explicit reference, but the parallel is striking.

We see instances where individuals other than Jesus are referred to as a son of man, including Ezekiel 2. Though admittedly if Rev 14:14 intentionally tips its hat to the book of Daniel, "like a son of man" in reference to Jesus makes the most sense.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Amen, Lucy . . . In Revelation 14:14, Jesus Christ returns with a Golden Crown upon His head. He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords No longer does He have a crown of thorns. It’s harvest time!

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

- Revelation 14:14-15 (NKJV)

John uses the same term to identify Jesus in Chapter 1 of Rev too. It gives me chills reading about him.

13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man, dressed in a robe reaching down
to his feet and with a golden sash round his chest.
14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword.
His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

 

[Laura798]

As a pretrib believer I have the hope of going home even though I could very well be wrong. There is evidence to support each view if you search for it many have beaten the horse blue on this many have given scriptures and evidence of all kinds yet the church is still divided on this. To be honest I don't think such debates are wrong but if it only causes division is it even worth having?

There are different types of believers out there. some pretribbers believe so much he is coming soon they have not prepared their hearts should they be wrong some mid tribbers have readied themselves for what is to come but do not expect his coming and thus do not know the joy of such hope and post tribbers have the similar train of thought. There are also different kind of people those who have the willingness to learn and admit they could be wrong and those who cannot.

I see squabbles and insults thrown every direction all because of a difference of understanding and everyone believing they are right and they are wrong, I see grown adults resort to childish behavior in a debate that doesn't even matter in the end because regardless of who is right in their standing if our hearts are not in the right place it all amounts to nothing and we won't be prepared no matter the outcome.
Our hearts will always be the deciding factor in every aspect of both our carnal and spiritual lives if we seek to know the deeper things our hearts first and foremost have that intimacy with him that closeness that connection of the hearts secondly we cannot claim to know the truth if we are so unwilling to question our beliefs otherwise even if the truth is handed to us on a silver platter we will be blind to it all because we are so sure we stand on the truth.

Anyone can prove their view to be right but few can disprove it not because it cannot be done but because they are unwilling. How do you test the strength of a blade? Do you simply declare how strong it is or do you test it against steel to see if it holds up? perhaps instead of arguing and believing so firmly we are right we should prove it right by trying to prove it wrong

Hi Blain,

I really appreciate what you wrote here; I can see where I could do a better job of responding. My point of contention nearly always those taking verses out of context, so often taking figurative language literally, and speaking from one's own opinion, not from facts. I'm pretty new to using the site--signed up during the lock down, but just got on fairly recently---and I almost deleted my account as the way some of things were discussed, for example attacking the person-ad hominem---vs supporting their belief with scripture.

The important thing when considering pre-trib vs post trib is to first begin with the literal verses, not Revelation. What is plainly stated in the New Testament? Does what you are taught regarding Revelation line up with that?

For example:

1) Christ is currently REIGNING now and is sitting at the right hand of the father and we are also currently reigning with Him since we are heirs of the kingdom. He began his reign after He was crucified on the cross and defeated death and sin. Jesus himself said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

"…22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.…"--1st Corinthians 15:23

1000 years is symbolic for a long period of time as you will find no other place in scripture that speaks of this--all of Revelation is symbolic--some of the symbols are explained by the angel, some of them would've been understood by readers of that time. We of modern times, must look into what some of the symbols mean, using discernment into what is figurative/symbol and what is literal.

"The number one thousand (1,000) symbolizes “immensity,” “fullness of quantity” or “multitude.” The number evokes a very long time according to most Bible passages. It is often used in scripture to specify an indefinite quantity. Many early Church fathers saw in the number 1,000, “the totality of the generations and the perfection of the life.” The number sometimes is used in a reference to paradise and everlasting happiness."


2) Satan is bound again 1000 years--the same as Christ's reign. Satan has been bound since Chris't death on the cross--not in his influence, but in his power to destroy those who belong to Christ.

3. Scripture says that Christ is coming a Second Time. It says there will be a SHOUT and a LOUD Trumpet blast. And the WHOLE WORLD will see His coming.

Note the verse 'one taken, the other left' is often ascribed to the rapture. However, if you read it in its context--those taken are compared to those who were taken/drowned in the flood. This verse mirrors and gives more detail:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city."--Zechariah 14:2

Understand that Jesus warns them not to be deceived when people say "Here is the Christ!" Only Christians who believe in a pre-trib rapture could be deceived by this. We need to be prepared for what is coming on the earth. We were warned for a reason, remember some will be alive and his appearing!

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."--1st Thessalonians 4:17

4. The disciples ask when all these things will happen, then he WARNS them--He is warning us too! He speaks of the things that will come on the earth, he speaks of how there will be a great falling away (which I believe is happening now) before the "lawless one is revealed."--God has all this down in writing--part of it was a warning to the believer as to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, but it also speaks of the future.

Blessings and Peace,

Laura

 

[Laura798]

Yes sadly there are many false prophets and false visionaries,many so called speakers of the lord it is amazing to me they have the nerve to dishonor him so carelessly
It is true that we were told we would have dreams and visions in these times but whether one actually has them or is of vain imaginations seems to be difficult for people to discern
I am not especially gifted in regards to dreams I mainly have visions they play out like a movie in my minds eye and sometimes I write them in the form of poetry I can describe everything as if I am actually there from the feeling in the air to the blades of grass or the texture of the dirt.

It isn't as if I am special or anything I think he gives me these only because of how intimately close we are because if I recieved such things without having such a deep love with him what good would it do me or anyone? I think the heavenly clock is counting down and he knows who is his he has chosen for himself a children who have only the deepest love and affection for him and I believe it is those who are in him by heart not by title that will see him come for us in the clouds. But it is hard these days to find such people in spirit like you I have gone to many different churches never once could I find one that felt like home to me the pastors all had good sermons they were full of scripture they were worded well they were structured good but when I would look at the people listening everyone seemed lifeless his spirit was seemingly nowhere to be found

1948 was the beginning of the countdown as whenever we need to see where we are in bible prophecy we always look to israel and a war is coming she is surrounded by enemies with the threat of iran wanting nukes and if they are able to obtain it they won't hesitate to use it. I am thinking if we are to pinpoint the true season of the rapture we need to pay attention to the coming war because when that happens I think that will be the turning point that brings about him gathering his sheep to safety .
Those who can feel it know it is close we know in our spirit and can sense it's nearness but it is not yet time however I think we will all feel in our spirits when it is finally time

Hi Blain,

Apologies for late response. I appreciate all you've written here. It is in some ways a comfort--though not encouraging--to see someone else sees what I see happening in the church. You said,

"But it is hard these days to find such people in spirit like you I have gone to many different churches never once could I find one that felt like home to me the pastors all had good sermons they were full of scripture they were worded well they were structured good but when I would look at the people listening everyone seemed lifeless his spirit was seemingly nowhere to be found"

This verse comes to mind regarding the times we are in now: "For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine and accurate instruction [that challenges them with God’s truth]; but wanting to have their ears tickled [with something pleasing], they will accumulate for themselves [many] teachers [one after another, chosen] to satisfy their own desires and to support the errors they hold ."-- 2 Timothy 4:3 AMPC


Blessings, Laura

 

[Blain]

Hi Blain,

I really appreciate what you wrote here; I can see where I could do a better job of responding. My point of contention nearly always those taking verses out of context, so often taking figurative language literally, and speaking from one's own opinion, not from facts. I'm pretty new to using the site--signed up during the lock down, but just got on fairly recently---and I almost deleted my account as the way some of things were discussed, for example attacking the person-ad hominem---vs supporting their belief with scripture.

The important thing when considering pre-trib vs post trib is to first begin with the literal verses, not Revelation. What is plainly stated in the New Testament? Does what you are taught regarding Revelation line up with that?

For example:

1) Christ is currently REIGNING now and is sitting at the right hand of the father and we are also currently reigning with Him since we are heirs of the kingdom. He began his reign after He was crucified on the cross and defeated death and sin. Jesus himself said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

"…22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.…"--1st Corinthians 15:23

1000 years is symbolic for a long period of time as you will find no other place in scripture that speaks of this--all of Revelation is symbolic--some of the symbols are explained by the angel, some of them would've been understood by readers of that time. We of modern times, must look into what some of the symbols mean, using discernment into what is figurative/symbol and what is literal.

"The number one thousand (1,000) symbolizes “immensity,” “fullness of quantity” or “multitude.” The number evokes a very long time according to most Bible passages. It is often used in scripture to specify an indefinite quantity. Many early Church fathers saw in the number 1,000, “the totality of the generations and the perfection of the life.” The number sometimes is used in a reference to paradise and everlasting happiness."


2) Satan is bound again 1000 years--the same as Christ's reign. Satan has been bound since Chris't death on the cross--not in his influence, but in his power to destroy those who belong to Christ.

3. Scripture says that Christ is coming a Second Time. It says there will be a SHOUT and a LOUD Trumpet blast. And the WHOLE WORLD will see His coming.

Note the verse 'one taken, the other left' is often ascribed to the rapture. However, if you read it in its context--those taken are compared to those who were taken/drowned in the flood. This verse mirrors and gives more detail:

"I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city."--Zechariah 14:2

Understand that Jesus warns them not to be deceived when people say "Here is the Christ!" Only Christians who believe in a pre-trib rapture could be deceived by this. We need to be prepared for what is coming on the earth. We were warned for a reason, remember some will be alive and his appearing!

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."--1st Thessalonians 4:17

4. The disciples ask when all these things will happen, then he WARNS them--He is warning us too! He speaks of the things that will come on the earth, he speaks of how there will be a great falling away (which I believe is happening now) before the "lawless one is revealed."--God has all this down in writing--part of it was a warning to the believer as to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, but it also speaks of the future.

Blessings and Peace,

Laura

I am not innocent in not responding how I should either and one of my pet peeves is also when people take scripture out of context. I normally use scripture to help guide build and encourage others I rarely use it in debates because I have seen what little good it does people use it so carelessly cherry picking abusing it using it to fit their own agenda so I am very careful as to how I use it and when I use it but many have said the things I say are of scripture. I hold his word in very high esteem it is not a toy and should be used with respect it disgusts me how people can use it so freely and without regard so I am with you in that sense

And I see you have used the scriptures correctly in your response and you are correct on all fronts in my opinion he never does anything without first being a gentlemen and telling us he laid out specific warnings for a purpose he never says anything without it needing to be hung on with clinging ears. The wisemen or magi were not even hebrew and yet they were among the few in the world who knew the sign of the messiah they were the few who knew what to look for and had the insight to percieve it the same will be for his return to take his bride and if you notice mathew 24 the most famous for anything to do with the rapture is full of wedding symbolism this is because he spoke to them in a manner they were accustomed to it was tradition for all these things spoken of so yes in order to understand and discern correctly we have to look at it through their eyes

 

[Blain]

Hi Blain,

Apologies for late response. I appreciate all you've written here. It is in some ways a comfort--though not encouraging--to see someone else sees what I see happening in the church. You said,

"But it is hard these days to find such people in spirit like you I have gone to many different churches never once could I find one that felt like home to me the pastors all had good sermons they were full of scripture they were worded well they were structured good but when I would look at the people listening everyone seemed lifeless his spirit was seemingly nowhere to be found"

This verse comes to mind regarding the times we are in now: "For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine and accurate instruction [that challenges them with God’s truth]; but wanting to have their ears tickled [with something pleasing], they will accumulate for themselves [many] teachers [one after another, chosen] to satisfy their own desires and to support the errors they hold ."-- 2 Timothy 4:3 AMPC


Blessings, Laura

It is always a comfort to not feel alone and this is sadly going to only get worse as more and more will refuse the truth and fewer and fewer believers will listen to sound doctrine many will be lead astray and I see many pastor5s who are only in it for the money and the fame others do it but lack any kind of passion and others still are simply decietful through and through. Go on youtube and you can find pastors and prophets from every region of the world and it is a good way to make it big on youtube people will blindly follow such a person like lambs to the slaughter

I even called out one such person and I was bombarded by her followersyou cannot even speak out in truth these days or risk being attacked and hated such as Jesus said it would be but they who lead his lambs to slaughter and who have no regard to his ways only appearing godly will recieve a punishment far worse than death they will cry in despair and agony pleading for mercy but none will be given for the atrocity of misleading even one of these lambs is far worse than anything else. Sorry I kind of ranted there

 

[Laura798]

It is always a comfort to not feel alone and this is sadly going to only get worse as more and more will refuse the truth and fewer and fewer believers will listen to sound doctrine many will be lead astray and I see many pastor5s who are only in it for the money and the fame others do it but lack any kind of passion and others still are simply decietful through and through. Go on youtube and you can find pastors and prophets from every region of the world and it is a good way to make it big on youtube people will blindly follow such a person like lambs to the slaughter

I even called out one such person and I was bombarded by her followersyou cannot even speak out in truth these days or risk being attacked and hated such as Jesus said it would be but they who lead his lambs to slaughter and who have no regard to his ways only appearing godly will recieve a punishment far worse than death they will cry in despair and agony pleading for mercy but none will be given for the atrocity of misleading even one of these lambs is far worse than anything else. Sorry I kind of ranted there

I agree with all you've said, Blain. With this being the exception: "will receive a punishment far worse than death they will cry in despair and agony pleading for mercy but none will be given"

Some of us have attended churches that teach the doctrine of eternal conscious torment, in which they say death does not actually mean death. However, if you search the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation you will see "The wages of sin is death."
"The wicked are destroyed." "it will be "as if they never were" The most well known verse in all of Christendom John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Also the bible is clear that Jesus paid the penalty of sin by dying in OUR PLACE.

There is only one gift of eternal life, not two and it is only for the believers.

Note: Most supporters of ECT use all figurative verses to support their doctrine, e.g. weep and gnashing of teeth, tormented day and night forever and ever, eternal fire, lake of fire. But again the literal verses must always take priority--they tell us in plain language what the figurative verses mean. 'Tormented' in this context is Punishment. Day and night forever signifies Finality--the punishment for their sin is eternal and there is no coming back from it. Note too, WHEN they weep and gnash teeth. Weep is only done in sorrow, not in agony--if one is in excruciating pain they scream or pass out-Jesus wept with the mourners, Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Also people gnash their teeth in anger --also in deep regret which I believe is what is being signified here--example are given of them weep and gnashing their teeth when they see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob entering the kingdom of heaven, but they are cast out. They also do this when they are cast "into outer darkness''. In all instances this is used are in parables. Eternal Fire is used interchangeably with Eternal Destruction and Eternal Punishement. All words using 'tion' and 'ment' are final-they are not ongoing.

In HIm,

Laura

 

[Absolutely]

Revelation 14:14 is also talking about the 7th Trump, the Day of the Lord, the Second Coming. Wow! What an awesome day that will be!

The second coming is on billions of white horses that blacken the sky.
Rev 14 gathering by Jesus sitting on a cloud, is nothing of that kind.
Can not be force fitted into it..

The last of rev 14 has an angel gathering rotten fruit to the battle of armageddon.

 

[Absolutely]

That's all under the seventh trumpet, I told you there was a lot more. What I post was the beginning of the seventh Trumpet. You have to learn and put all together, for example let's take a look at that sickle in Zechariah 14: 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.....

Let's go back to Revelation 14: 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

It's all the same event, the prophets telling the same story in different ways then the apostles, with more to understand here and there. Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Let's add more to it in Revelation 11: 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Look at all this knowledge in these verses. Jesus came down and took the world over, the saints got there reward because Jesus say And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22: 12-14). We have the ark of the Testament, and we have the twenty four elders.

Only if you need it to be the same event.

In fact those different events ( as anyone can see) could be months apart as indicated by angels begin to preach the gospel...not men.
That alone takes time.

So no, it is obvious and clear it is not the same event.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Always good to apply that 2 timothy verse BEFORE you think you know what you are talking about

 

[Absolutely]

Amen, Lucy . . . In Revelation 14:14, Jesus Christ returns with a Golden Crown upon His head. He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords No longer does He have a crown of thorns. It’s harvest time!

Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."

- Revelation 14:14-15 (NKJV)

exactly

It is obvious and plain rev 14:14 IS NOT the second coming.

I agree

 

[iTheophilus]

The second coming is on billions of white horses that blacken the sky.
Rev 14 gathering by Jesus sitting on a cloud, is nothing of that kind.
Can not be force fitted into it..

The last of rev 14 has an angel gathering rotten fruit to the battle of armageddon.

Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

- Revelation 14:17-19 (NKJV)

This is Almighty God's vengeance and wrath—all 7 bowls! Grapes aren't harvested with a sickle; they're picked. Grain harvesting is done with the sickle. This is the point that John is making, as revealed to him by Jesus. It's going to be a mess spiritually for those who have it coming. The grapes signify those Christians who did not wait for the 7th trump to be picked in season, but instead were picked out of season at the 5th trump. Why? Because they were deceived.

(Please don’t accuse me of force-fitting; it’s rude and not necessary. Let’s discuss/debate in a mature fashion.)

 

[ewq1938]

This is Almighty God's vengeance and wrath—all 7 bowls! Grapes aren't harvested with a sickle; they're picked.

Grapes are sold in bunches, still attached to branches so they are not picked. They are cut in clusters using a sharp tool.

G1407
δρέπανον
drepanon
drep'-an-on
From δρέπω drepō (to pluck); a gathering hook (especially for harvesting): - sickle.
Total KJV occurrences: 8

Sickle here is not sickle we think of for cutting hay or grain like wheat etc. This is a tool meant for harvesting fruit by pulling clusters close to you so you can cut it.

A modern one is here:

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.J5vjp6rF8cXdmB4jfhnbawHaCe&pid=Api&P=0&w=501&h=168

 

[Absolutely]

Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

- Revelation 14:17-19 (NKJV)

This is Almighty God's vengeance and wrath—all 7 bowls! Grapes aren't harvested with a sickle; they're picked. Grain harvesting is done with the sickle. This is the point that John is making, as revealed to him by Jesus. It's going to be a mess spiritually for those who have it coming. The grapes signify those Christians who did not wait for the 7th trump to be picked in season, but instead were picked out of season at the 5th trump. Why? Because they were deceived.

(Please don’t accuse me of force-fitting; it’s rude and not necessary. Let’s discuss/debate in a mature fashion.)

The gathering prior to the one for the winepress (armageddon) is rev 14 :14.

Tell me what that particular gathering is.

No horses, and completely different to rev19 second coming.
No resemblance what so ever

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is rapture.


Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is what happens to those not raptured, they are trodden upon which is symbolic of vials of wrath and bloodshed at Armageddon.

 

[Absolutely]

Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe." So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

- Revelation 14:17-19 (NKJV)

This is Almighty God's vengeance and wrath—all 7 bowls! Grapes aren't harvested with a sickle; they're picked. Grain harvesting is done with the sickle. This is the point that John is making, as revealed to him by Jesus. It's going to be a mess spiritually for those who have it coming. The grapes signify those Christians who did not wait for the 7th trump to be picked in season, but instead were picked out of season at the 5th trump. Why? Because they were deceived.

(Please don’t accuse me of force-fitting; it’s rude and not necessary. Let’s discuss/debate in a mature fashion.)

rev 14:14

You skipped it

 

[Absolutely]

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is rapture.


Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is what happens to those not raptured, they are trodden upon which is symbolic of vials of wrath and bloodshed at Armageddon.

No
Because the first friuts 144 k are already in heaven at the,first part of rev 14.

If you eliminate " firstfruits" then all the other speculations have a tiny merit.
But not really.

The entire chapter is up for most any " interpretation" if we omit "first fruits"

That gives all subsequent gatherings an order.

First fruits always invokes a gathering dynamic.

If you omit that and ignore the jewish factor of the 144 k then other "interpretations" are a rabbit trail

 

[Absolutely]

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is rapture.


Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

This is what happens to those not raptured, they are trodden upon which is symbolic of vials of wrath and bloodshed at Armageddon.

It has to have some semblance of the rapture to ascribe that to it.

 

[tanakh]

I will be the odd ball here--there is no pre-tribulation rapture nor are we in the tribulation IMO

I agree that there is no pretribulation rapture as understood by those who are hoping for one. But there are many Christians experiencing tribulation NOW and have been for the past 2000 plus years. I also believe that we are approaching events leading up to the second coming and things are going to get a
lot worse for those who proclaim their belief and faith in Christ.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

I agree that there is no pretribulation rapture as understood by those who are hoping for one.

Precious friend, and we also understand that there are those who would ROB us
of our hope In THE Blessed Hope, The Appearing Of The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And
our GLORIFICATION, which Is For our COMFORT, According To The Scriptures:

The preaching Of JESUS CHRIST, According to The Revelation of The MYSTERY
(Romans Through Philemon), That God GAVE Paul, FOR our HOPE AND COMFORT!

In other words, IT IS A SIN "to steal!" Amen?