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Bride of Christ - who is She?
- Thread starter DavidTree
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pottersclay
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Right on davidTree no smarts about it. Peter in acts was called a unlearned man which back in the day was a idiot. In fact that is probably why mark wrote the gospel as peter told the story. Possible that peter couldn't read or write.
I hear you, and am trying to understand your position. Here is what hangs me up:
Romans 2:29 NLT - "No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."
This NLT translation is stating that a change of heart, or a change of behavior, is produced by the Spirit and not that of ourselves. I could offer more verses along these lines, but you see what I mean.
Yes, but He also finishes that Good Work:
Philippians 1:6 NKJV - ". . . being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ . . ."
This is what I call the Effect of Christ. In my studies, I find that the Gospel is best [described] as the Purpose of Christ, the Work of Christ, and the Effect of Christ. I would suggest that if, when issuing the Gospel to a person, if we leave out any of these three, that person would not be receiving the True Gospel, thus a Gospel that cannot save a soul. The Effect of Christ is not taught in the church, for if it was, a standard of obedience would be required and enforced for membership (Corinthians chapter 5 and the removal of the young man shagging his step-mother).
Perhaps I am stating that Conformity is the result of Transformation. Perhaps that is the best way to view this?
Hmmm . . . I think that the above escapes me.
This is the work of the Holy Spirit we are just called to catch the fish...jesus cleans them.
Yes, and it seems that this applies to ourselves, that Jesus catches AND cleans us, which is why Paul stated that Salvation is entirely the Work of God.
Ephesians 2:8-10 NLT - "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago."
I hope this makes sense. I appreciate you all so much. Thank you for your amazing insights!
Considering that the Circumcision of Christ is what renders a person as neither male nor female, Greek or Jew, I'd have no problem if I were referred to as a Holy Sister in Christ. It makes no difference to me.
Galatians 3:28 KJV - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
And like a broken record (on my behalf), this is all contingent upon Colossians 2:9-15, the utter Heart of the entire Bible.
Colossians 2:9-15 KJV - "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."
And since Marilyn does not respond to anything that I offer to her (possible ignore list), someone let me know and I'll stop doing such (should they confirm this idea).
Whether you were born male or female - does not matter - when you are Born Again - we all become Sons of God.
My favorite scripture: 1 John 3:1-3
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3
Hi Tim,
Sorry I didn`t realise I hadn`t responded. I have been busy these past few days.
So I agree we are neither male or female in the Body of Christ, however it does seem that some men are persistent in saying they are the Bride, (female). The Apostle Paul, to whom was given the revelation of the Body of Christ, has written 4 chapters in Ephesians concerning the Body of Christ, the New Man. Why is that ignored?
Marilyn.
Ah, my dear . . . thank you for replying. And you're right . . . women should not be ignored, but instead, uplifted! In my humble, meager, human opinion, women are the single most incredible creation that the Lord has produced. To be able to host a child within is just staggering . . . completely mind-boggling.
So as you correspond with me in the future, know that my head is tilted upward as I "speak" with you. All women are incredibly important!!
Hi Tim,
Such kind words, however I was saying that what Paul said seems to be ignored, not me or women. But thanks anyway.
Marilyn.
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. It's been an incredible week of insanity.
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pottersclay
Guest
I have to say that this thread has really blessed me in terms of fellowship with one another.
Even though we have are differences in scripture we can agree that Christ the Lord has done this work in us.
I was talking to my wife just yesterday about a time which I hope is sooner than later where I could say "honey I'm going to talk to the Lord today, as go and walk to that place to meet him face to face.
I just love to day dream about the coming reign of our king.
It always brings tears of joy and gladness to my eyes to imagine to sit down with the one that made you.
Actually made you...wow how wonderful, amazing, fantastic
Even though we have are differences in scripture we can agree that Christ the Lord has done this work in us.
I was talking to my wife just yesterday about a time which I hope is sooner than later where I could say "honey I'm going to talk to the Lord today, as go and walk to that place to meet him face to face.
I just love to day dream about the coming reign of our king.
It always brings tears of joy and gladness to my eyes to imagine to sit down with the one that made you.
Actually made you...wow how wonderful, amazing, fantastic
What an amazing post. You're the kind of person that I wish I lived close to . . . so much to talk about in terms of our Powerful Lord and how He has impacted our lives.
What an amazing post!
We will sit on thrones with Him and this is hinted at with the scene in Rev 4 and 5 of which chapters in my opinion is suggestive of the raptured saints. I do think that there are levels of higher rewards based on faithfulness to the call in this life. The translation most favored is the "upward call" and I believe Paul was saying that state of perfection which we enter into post resurrection.
I believe Paul preached a bringing into one both Jew and Gentile in the eternal fulfilment of the inheritance of the covenant people. That all distinction will be done away with so that they are all one. Therefore it would not be theologically sound to separate the Jews and the Gentiles in the eternal perfected state. I am going with the apostles names on the 12 foundations and the 12 Tribes of Israel on the gates a suggestion of a unifying into one redeemed purchased people or city not made with hands which we all long for. That those who walked in faith of Abraham or Moses before the Cross and those who followed the Apostles teachings after the cross both look for a city not made with hands eternal in the heavens of which this New Jerusalem in John's vision represents. This seems to be the most intuitive interpretation that would come naturally to the reader in any generation since it was written. It is really hard not to get it. One must be taught to ignore the initial comprehension that comes when they first read it. If they were well read in the scriptures that is. Obviously a beginner who started in Revelation and had not yet read the rest of the bible might not understand it.
Also when you read the description the emphasis is on the City. It is "as a bride adorned" The emphasis is that this is that City not made with hands the scriptures promised. Saying it is "as a bride adorned" is saying that it is adorned very beautifully (as the details describe it so to be with the various jewels etc) To take this and remove the emphasis away from the CITY promised of old, and to discuss a BRIDE is to swerve from the subject and create a brand new subject. It is NOT the BRIDE it is the CITY. The CITY is adorned as a bride. I hope you see the difference. Too much nonsense has been preached based on "adorned as a bride" and the main point "the city not made with hands that we all long for" is missed as a result.
The question should be What is this CITY?
Hi Amanuensis,
Some very good points there. I agree that we are those in Rev. 4 & 5. And also that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile IN the Body of Christ. However God has not finished with the nation of Israel, as Rom. 11 tells us.
`I do not desire, brethren that you should be ignorant of this mystery, (grafting in to Christ of Israel and the Body), lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness, (completeness) of the Gentile has come in, and so all Israel will be saved..` (Rom. 11: 25 & 26)
I think that is a good point regarding the `city` not made with human hands. It was the promise God gave to the OT saints a you said. Note that it comes DOWN out of heaven FROM God. We know that the Lord`s authority (throne) is there however it is NOT His seat of authority and power which is FAR ABOVE ALL.`
Far above where Lucifer had his throne.
Far above the angels.
Far above the New Jerusalem which comes DOWN out of heaven from God.
Far above......every name that is named in this age and the one to come. (Eph. 1: 21)
Thus those who are overcomers will sit with Him on His throne in the highest, and NOT come down out of heaven from God. (Rev. 3: 21)
Marilyn.
So `What is this city?`
I believe it is a community of Old Testament saints, the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, (Thrones/kings, Matt. 19: 28) and the 144,000 priests, (Rev. 14: 1 - 5, Ex. 19 6)
The purpose being the Lord`s righteous rulership in the Principalities and Powers realm, (Col. 1: 16). The Lord made every realm and every realm will have righteous rulership under Him.
This community will oversee the rulership on the earth. (Rev. 21: 24 & 25)
Note: the Body of Christ, however will be ruling with Christ in the highest realm over all of God`s great kingdom.
This is just a metaphor. It is a metaphor that the knowledge of the Bible gives life,
The Bride can be Church, and can be Holy sprite, can be anyone
The Bride of Christ cannot be just anyone and certainly not Holy "sprite".
Here is your starting point: Ephesians 5:30-33
For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
Such an interpretation would separate the apostles from the church? Not following you. This vision is a grand finale of theological eschatology. There is no one left out of the city but the dogs and unbelievers who are in the lake of fire. The saved are WITHIN, and the unsaved are WITHOUT. There is nothing else. End of Story. The END. Happily Ever After..
Also, since the Jew and Gentile have become one and the Gentile believer inherits the promises of the covenant people as Paul clearly preached calling them both one and that separation removed in Christ, then we know that in the eternal Kingdom of God that distinction is removed so that there is a great mixing of OT and NT believers made one in Christ.
Any hint that this is not so would be a teaching that reeks of the kinds of false teaching that Paul told Timothy to rebuke and which Paul had to constantly wrestle with in the early churches. Those false teachers were trying to present a form of salvation that relied on strict adherence to legalistic intellectual adherence to special revelation or knowledge which made it's initiates into special enlightened ones and elevated them above their brothers.
This is the underlying mechanism behind the Gnostics and it is still being used effectively by false teachers.
Any teaching that puts an emphasis on intellectual agreement to specially enlightened interpretations but ignore personal lives of holiness and godliness belong in this camp of modern Gnosticism and they abound.
Israel will be saved. And I am in agreement with those who interpret this as all those of Israel who will turn to Christ and that there is probably going to be a major Christian revival in the nation of Israel itself at the end right before the resurrection of the dead because of the way Paul says... For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? ...
And so if their rejection of Christ as a group led by their leaders caused the fulfilment of prophecy concerning the gospel to be offered to the whole world and bring in saved souls from every nation to be part of the covenant people of God, what will their receiving of Christ be as a group led by their leaders but the ushering in of the prophetic event of the final end time resurrection of the just and the unjust where the righteous go into eternal life and the unrighteous go into eternal damnation and this New earth is created whereby this New Jerusalem comes down upon it and all the righteous that make up those who are part of that "Life from the Dead" are to be WITHIN and those who are WITHOUT are those who have been cast into the lake of Fire.
Rev 21
26The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
It is not feasible that the vast multitudes of the redeemed church members who's names are written in the Lambs Book of Life as mentioned in Rev 3 (5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, ) It is not feasible that these could not be included among those who's names are written in the Lambs book of Life that make up this City (rev 21:27)
To suggest that the overcomers of Rev 3 are not in this City is to create in ones imagination two books to make the interpretation fit. No intellectually honest interpreter would attempt that, therefore they must concede that 1) overcomers in Rev 3 are the church, (these are letters to churches) and 2) They are in the Lambs book of Life, and 3) They are in the New Jerusalem because he said those that are there are those who's names are written in the Lambs book of Life. And therefore the intellectually honest interpreter must abandon any suggestion that the Church is not in the New Jerusalem.
The only hint of any other group in the context of the New Jerusalem descending is that it mentions "those that are without"
Granted, the wording in Rev 22 makes one wonder "are there going to be people without this city that match this description?"
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
However, by reading the chapter 21 we see that these that match this description have already been cast into the Lake of Fire.
21But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Which leaves me to understand 22:15 as simply referring to "those that are without" being those in the Lake of Fire. Possibly a visible smoke of their torment being visible in some manner.
"Far above" in the context of Eph 1 is the level of the authority that Christ inherits by his redemptive work. It is true that we inherit that authority in Christ but as part of him not independent of him and we are not talking about a physical location but a level of authority. Higher as in Greater than.
Location is irrelevant. One can say that we are currently seated with him positionally in authority. The redeemed who inherit thrones, dominions, authority, rewards of many kinds we know nothing of until that day comes can inherit them just as well in the New Jerusalem as any other "Location" one can imagine. The Far Above is not physical location but Authoritative position.
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.