Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[arpon]

If I can throw eternal life away it can be lost.

It becomes conditional life. Because it is based on the fact of me wanting to keep it and not give it back.

See I disagree with you. There is free will

Anyone who ever has truly experienced Gods love will never freely give it back. We lose faith in people who fail us. God never fails us. We may think an this area or that area God failed us, But this is not true. and he has proven trustworthy in so many areas that we would never lose complete faith in him.

people go back to what they really have faith in.

A person who really trusted the law may try christianity for a while, But their faith is in the law. And they will go back.

People who truly has faith in the world may try christianity for a while. But like a dog returns to his vomit, so will they return to what they truly believe.

That is why John said if they were truly of us they never would have left. they left to expose the fact they were never truly of us.

According to my understanding- once saved always saved is correct- if he is matured enough in his believe. for immature believer God will help them to be matured gradually- So for them it is not correct.
+ If once saved always saved is correct then there is some problem- I am saved, So I can rape now. Will God Get honor by that? or will he be pleased? I am saved so God can not throw me out anymore. (How its look like?)
+ if a saved person can not sin. Than nobody would actually saved. cause we all sin in mind. even saints sin. Matured believer also sin.
** My question to you is- Do you really know what you believe and why you believe? Many people know what they believe, but do not know why they believe it. (It is in the bible- that does not means you have to believe it- Check it, test it first.) It can be in the bible- But if the narration is opposite of Gods character and nature, It is not Biblical though it is in the Bible. Love you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 john 2:19- 19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. I agree with you that In here John really telling about those people who never believed Jesus. That I totally agree.
But I think you are assuming only 2 types of people not other sub type of people within them. you are thinking about Those who believe and those who don't. But you are not thinking about those people who actually believe but are not matured, So whenever any difficulties come or whenever difficult questions come they lose their faith because of lack of good guidance. people believe, they want to believe- But many lose their faith cause our Christian leaders and we do not care about them or do not answer them to mature or grow them. Only those people will not throw their faith who are mature enough. You are vouching for them only not for immature. there are those we never have faith but with us, there are people who have faith but immature so need guidance to keep their faith and to be mature, there are people whos faith are matured so they will never throw away their faith. I can not say to anymore. I can state more type of people, God is f=gracious to them, but we are not. that's our problem not Gods.

I am just stating as a matter of fact what John said

ANYONE who leaves, and is against Christ in unbelief, was never saved.

He did not say, Well except these people who did not do this, or those people.

he said them plain and simple

I left as a prodigal son about 20 years ago. I was gone for 5 years. I lost faith in church, in Gods people in alot of stuff

I never lost faith in his salvation or his word that I was a sinner and deserved hellfire.

A prodigal son did not lose salvation. they lose faith and understand they are true sons, they never lost faith in that.

An antichrtist never had salvation. Thus were never saved. they went back to their true faith.

 

[arpon]

I am just stating as a matter of fact what John said

ANYONE who leaves, and is against Christ in unbelief, was never saved.

He did not say, Well except these people who did not do this, or those people.

he said them plain and simple

I left as a prodigal son about 20 years ago. I was gone for 5 years. I lost faith in church, in Gods people in alot of stuff

I never lost faith in his salvation or his word that I was a sinner and deserved hellfire.

A prodigal son did not lose salvation. they lose faith and understand they are true sons, they never lost faith in that.

An antichrtist never had salvation. Thus were never saved. they went back to their true faith.

Man- I think you are mixing 2 things. Prodigal son story is for them who already saved and had eternal life cause he was already in kingdom then throw away the kingdom/eternal life. 1 Johns story is of them who did not get salvation at all. Please don't mix this 2 in one.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Man- I think you are mixing 2 things. Prodigal son story is for them who already saved and had eternal life cause he was already in kingdom then throw away the kingdom/eternal life. 1 Johns story is of them who did not get salvation at all. Please don't mix this 2 in one.

I think you are mixing them

A prodigal son did not throw away salvation. they never lost it. they are still sons

A person who throws away their salvation never had it. Because if they did, they never would have thrown it away in unbelief

 

[arpon]

I think you are mixing them

A prodigal son did not throw away salvation. they never lost it. they are still sons


A person who throws away their salvation never had it. Because if they did, they never would have thrown it away in unbelief

I totally agree with you that they are his son. I agree that he did not lost it cause he knew where the salvation and where the peace is. But still he rejects it, But Son is not saved until he is into the kingdom. I am gods son does mean that I got the visa of heaven. But still it is my decision to hold God. I have visa of brazil does not mean that I will go there. I am my fathers son means I have the visa of heaven, but it does not mean I will go there if i Reject or throw it. (God and me, we both have to hold each others hand. God will never let me down, But If I do not want to be with him, though I have the visa- I will not go to heaven due to my decision.

1 Johns story is of them who did not get salvation at all, John did not said- ANYONE who leaves, and is against Christ in unbelief, was never saved(your saying), . At johns time they were wolves in sheep's form, So he tells about them that they are not saved even though they were in the church, John did not mean that they were in the same believe but he means they were in the church. many are in the church does not mean they are in same believe. they were in the church it was not the main problem. Unbelievers in church is not the main problem, the main problem was that they were trying to convince people to go in wrong way- that states in same chapter- 1 John 2:26- I have written these things to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. Its about those who went away from them. they were not saved. and you know that before letting people out of church there was a system to warn them. So they left knowing the truth but did not want to obey.

Please don't mix prodigal son and John. Prodigal son is for them who are already saved but rejects and come back again, 1 John is for them who are not saved cause they know but do not receive.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I totally agree with you that they are his son. I agree that he did not lost it cause he knew where the salvation and where the peace is. But still he rejects it, But Son is not saved until he is into the kingdom. I am gods son does mean that I got the visa of heaven. But still it is my decision to hold God. I have visa of brazil does not mean that I will go there. I am my fathers son means I have the visa of heaven, but it does not mean I will go there if i Reject or throw it. (God and me, we both have to hold each others hand. God will never let me down, But If I do not want to be with him, though I have the visa- I will not go to heaven due to my decision.

1 Johns story is of them who did not get salvation at all, John did not said- ANYONE who leaves, and is against Christ in unbelief, was never saved(your saying), . At johns time they were wolves in sheep's form, So he tells about them that they are not saved even though they were in the church, John did not mean that they were in the same believe but he means they were in the church. many are in the church does not mean they are in same believe. they were in the church it was not the main problem. Unbelievers in church is not the main problem, the main problem was that they were trying to convince people to go in wrong way- that states in same chapter- 1 John 2:26- I have written these things to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. Its about those who went away from them. they were not saved. and you know that before letting people out of church there was a system to warn them. So they left knowing the truth but did not want to obey.

Please don't mix prodigal son and John. Prodigal son is for them who are already saved but rejects and come back again, 1 John is for them who are not saved cause they know but do not receive.

unless I misunderstand you, you preach eternal life is not eternal

that a person that has it can lose it by giving it up and saying he does not want it anymore.

That is conditional life my friend. it states eternal life is mine as long as I keep it. which means there is a condition.

A person who hands eternal life back to God and says he does not want it never had it. That is what John says.

I would just take John at his word.

 

[arpon]

unless I misunderstand you, you preach eternal life is not eternal

that a person that has it can lose it by giving it up and saying he does not want it anymore.

That is conditional life my friend. it states eternal life is mine as long as I keep it. which means there is a condition.

A person who hands eternal life back to God and says he does not want it never had it. That is what John says.

I would just take John at his word.

What I think about eternal life is- If anyone is with God he is in eternal life. Without God there is no eternal life. So I have eternal life does not mean that I will hold eternal life for eternity. As long as I am holding God I will live eternally, Like adam and eve, while they were in eden they were with God so had eternal life, Thats why they did not need to eat the tree of life before sin. (eternal life is also conditional, as long as I live with and within God I have it, When I reject him, I will not live.)- My thinking can be wrong off course.
+ So if I am not with God, off course I will have eternal death, cause there will be no option + no coming back after my physical death.

I may be wrong. But do you read the bible or study the bible? What do you do more? study bible or study other peoples theory? there is difference. I request you please do study bible more with context rather than study other peoples note. (If you study Bible more and with context, You can ignore my comment. Its OK. God loves and bless you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What I think about eternal life is- If anyone is with God he is in eternal life. Without God there is no eternal life. So I have eternal life does not mean that I will hold eternal life for eternity.

So I have eternal life. But I may not have eternal life.

which is it?

eternal means forever. The literal rendering is that I will live forever.. Sadly I think we mess things up my making it a religious term, and not just interpret it for what it is

Jesus said never perish (never die) but has eternal life.

Eternal is forever.. If it can be lost its not eternal

As long as I am holding God I will live eternally. (eternal life is also conditional, as long as I live with and within God I have it, When I reject him, I will not live.)-

Once again, this is conditional life. not eternal life. and You making your eternal desiny, a gift of God based on faith a reward or wage based on whether I meet the requirments.

My thinking can be wrong off course.

I believe this is the case

+ So if I am not with God, off course I will have eternal death, cause there will be no option + no coming back after my physical death.

I may be wrong. But do you read the bible or study the bible? What do you do more? study bible or study other peoples theory? there is difference. I request you please do study bible more with context rather than study other peoples note. (If you study Bible more and with context, You can ignore my comment. Its OK.)

I just take the bible literally

WHen Jesus said I will never die and I have eternal life based on my faith, I believe him

if. after I come to this truth and have recieved his promise. I in turn die or lose eternal life

1. Jesus lied, I did die, when he promised I would never die
2. He also lied, I did not have eternal life, I had conditional life.

I have studied this for 4 decades my friend. Please do not question me about if I study or read my word because I do not agree with you. thats rude!

 

[arpon]

So I have eternal life. But I may not have eternal life.

which is it?

eternal means forever. The literal rendering is that I will live forever.. Sadly I think we mess things up my making it a religious term, and not just interpret it for what it is

Jesus said never perish (never die) but has eternal life.

Eternal is forever.. If it can be lost its not eternal




Once again, this is conditional life. not eternal life. and You making your eternal desiny, a gift of God based on faith a reward or wage based on whether I meet the requirments.


I believe this is the case



I just take the bible literally

WHen Jesus said I will never die and I have eternal life based on my faith, I believe him

if. after I come to this truth and have recieved his promise. I in turn die or lose eternal life

1. Jesus lied, I did die, when he promised I would never die
2. He also lied, I did not have eternal life, I had conditional life.

I have studied this for 4 decades my friend. Please do not question me about if I study or read my word because I do not agree with you. thats rude!

Jesus did not lie my friend. God is our eternal life. So If you have God, you have eternal life, After receiving Jesus if you reject him from heart you throw away the eternal life cause you are throwing away Jesus. in revelations Jesus says that he is knocking the door. He does not enter into us without our permission. He can but he will not, Its Gods nature. another nature of our God is he will not force us to heaven or in his presence or eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus did not lie my friend. God is our eternal life. So If you have God, you have eternal life, After receiving Jesus if you reject him from heart you throw away the eternal life cause you are throwing away Jesus. in revelations Jesus says that he is knocking the door. He does not enter into us without our permission. He can but he will not, Its Gods nature. another nature of our God is he will not force us to heaven or in his presence or eternal life.

Your right. God did not lie

so when he says that the moment I believe in him, I will never die and I have life eternal. He means it.

You placing a condition on eternal life.. That makes it conditional life.

 

[JTB]

I am just stating as a matter of fact what John said

ANYONE who leaves, and is against Christ in unbelief, was never saved.

He did not say, Well except these people who did not do this, or those people.

he said them plain and simple

I left as a prodigal son about 20 years ago. I was gone for 5 years. I lost faith in church, in Gods people in alot of stuff

I never lost faith in his salvation or his word that I was a sinner and deserved hellfire.

A prodigal son did not lose salvation. they lose faith and understand they are true sons, they never lost faith in that.

An antichrtist never had salvation. Thus were never saved. they went back to their true faith.

Do you see a difference between 'backsliding' and 'apostasy'?

 

[JTB]

Your right. God did not lie

so when he says that the moment I believe in him, I will never die and I have life eternal. He means it.

You placing a condition on eternal life.. That makes it conditional life.

"He who perseveres to the end shall be saved"

Did God not say that? Is that not a condition?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you see a difference between 'backsliding' and 'apostasy'?

A backslider is still a child of God

Apostasy - 1 Tim 4. We’re never saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"He who perseveres to the end shall be saved"

Did God not say that? Is that not a condition?

Nope

He said this in context of the great tribulation. That whoever perseveres to the end will be saved (physically)

If we must persevere we earn salvation. In other words, we recieve the gift in the spirit but must perfect that gift in the flesh.

Paul calls us fools if we try this.

 

[justbyfaith]

@eternally-gratefull,

If someone who believes in Jesus Christ were to be left behind at the rapture (because they were found sinning at the moment of the rapture) and then takes the mark of the Beast, were they eternally secure for that they believed in Jesus Christ?

Is there no condemnation for them even though they took the mark?

How does Revelation 14:9-11 coincide with John 5:24?

 

[peldom10]

Gods salvation is a free gift(Jesus himself), it is not a reward. God is not taking back his gift from us. So we can not loss our salvation. That's clear. But we can throw our gift, because God gives us freedom to do that. If we throw away our gift(Jesus), we are not losing it due to God but we are losing it due to ourselves. Its clear as pure water.

WOW.....who said God forever takes back His gift of eternal salvation? ..;if one should back.slide. That is a totally different point. How does it fit into the point being discussed here?

 

[peldom10]

Nope

He said this in context of the great tribulation. That whoever perseveres to the end will be saved (physically)

If we must persevere we earn salvation. In other words, we recieve the gift in the spirit but must perfect that gift in the flesh.

Paul calls us fools if we try this.

Nope not true...you keep saying this...why? What are you achieving by distorting God's word? Huh?

Again I ask you show the scripture which backs your contention.

 

[arpon]

Your right. God did not lie

so when he says that the moment I believe in him, I will never die and I have life eternal. He means it.

You placing a condition on eternal life.. That makes it conditional life.

Our problem is we think eternal life and Jesus are two different thing. Eternal life always In Jesus Christ, As long as we hold Jesus we have it. You can not separate Eternal life and Jesus. I reject Jesus and have eternal life- It does not work that way.
1 John 5:12- He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
John 3:15- so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
I agree that salvation can not be lost. Once saved always saved is right. But after getting saved, If we can not Reject Jesus, Than God is doing something out of his nature. He is forcing his will to us. I know that He can force us, but according to his nature he gives free will and freedom. So he will not force us. That's why I am saying salvation can not be lost but can be thrown away. I threw something does not mean I have lost it, I know where to look, I know where to go and pick it up. Nobody can pick my salvation but me.

P.S- My comment for every bible narration is- If anybody narrate bible verse which is opposite of Gods nature, than there is a problem. such as- (God is sovereign, omnipotent, Just, peace, all loving, believe in freedom, free in nature, good, friendly, has holy anger, all knowing etc ... ... ... ) So if any narration is not harmonized with Gods nature, I will not agree with it completely. How many literal Bible verse you show me it does not matter as long as it do not match with Gods nature.

Thank you for understanding.

 

[arpon]

WOW.....who said God forever takes back His gift of eternal salvation? ..;if one should back.slide. That is a totally different point. How does it fit into the point being discussed here?

Dont get me wrong my freind. I never said god takes back his gift. I said we can throw it away. and it is not lost at all, cause we know where to look for it.

P.S- My comment for every bible narration is- If anybody narrate bible verse which is opposite of Gods nature, than there is a problem. such as- (God is sovereign, omnipotent, Just, peace, all loving, believe in freedom, free in nature, good, friendly, has holy anger, all knowing etc ... ... ... ) So if any narration is not harmonized with Gods nature, I will not agree with it completely. How many literal Bible verse you show me it does not matter as long as it do not match with Gods nature.

** Generally once saved always saved is narrated in such a way that God takes freedom to not to be with him. That's not in Gods nature. (But if you can show me that in OSAS theory there is Gods all character and nature- I am open to believe, really I am.) Thank you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope not true...you keep saying this...why? What are you achieving by distorting God's word? Huh?

Again I ask you show the scripture which backs your contention.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Learn to read my friend

Jesus did not contradict himself and claim we can only be saved by belief in him, then say we must endure to the end if we really want salvation